EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Ken H]

Personally I think this was the intention all along. String out a bad deal, annoy Remain & Leave supporters alike, then revoke Article 50. I don't believe there is any real momentum (not Labour) within the higher Government figures to get a good deal and actually proceed with Brexit

parliament,the government and the civil service have been against brexit all along. May campaigned to leave. They have done everything possible to thwart brexit and even now are trying to force us into the dreadful withdrawal agreement.

There is nothing wrong with the brexit concept. it is the useless politicians (all parties) in the UK that have screwed it up big time.

Well its all gone t1ts up for them now. They cant get a Withdrawal Agreement (WA) through parliament. Labour will vote against it in the hope of forcing a general election, the ERG will vote against it and so will the DUP.
Why would they not? Its the same rubbish WA they rejected earlier this year.

The European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, which was passed by the same sorry mob of MP's who are in the commons now, mandates we leave in 17 days time if no WA. They have to pass primary legislation (a new act of Parliament) to repeal or amend that. not just pass a motion.

£5 at paddy power of a WTO leave end of march may be a good investment.

 

[bahnause]

Personally I think this was the intention all along. String out a bad deal, annoy Remain & Leave supporters alike, then revoke Article 50.

It only looks like a bad deal from the inside. From the outside, it looks like a realistic deal. The expectations of the brexiteers were too big for one‘s boots. And I think most of the were and are aware of that. We learn the same lesson here in switzerland.

 

[Bletchleyite]

£5 at paddy power of a WTO leave end of march may be a good investment.

€5 may be a better investment

In all seriousness, though, I think that's the most likely outcome at present too, the reason being that it isn't possible to force an "either or" vote on Parliament - they have to vote in favour of each thing - which means that quite a bit of sabotage is going on and the default is "no deal".

 

[Ken H]

It only looks like a bad deal from the inside. From the outside, it looks like a realistic deal. The expectations of the brexiteers were too big for one‘s boots. And I think most of the were and are aware of that. We learn the same lesson here in switzerland.

how is being a vassal state a good deal? People have said the WA is worse than that imposed on Germany after WW1

 

[Ken H]

€5 may be a better investment

In all seriousness, though, I think that's the most likely outcome at present too, the reason being that it isn't possible to force an "either or" vote on Parliament - they have to vote in favour of each thing - which means that quite a bit of sabotage is going on and the default is "no deal".

Our parliament has evolved to be a 2 party system. government and opposition.
It is simply not able to cope with an issue (like brexit) that does not fit into the neat Tory v Labour divisions they have. MP's are ignoring the whips and voting how they feel, huddling in groups that transcend party lines.
And there is a massive disconnect between the remain politicians and a huge number of leaver electors.

Whatever happens with brexit, this may cause a massive upheaval in Uk politics. Peaceful, I hope.

 

[simonw]

how is being a vassal state a good deal? People have said the WA is worse than that imposed on Germany after WW1

Not sure which 'people' you refer to buy they aren't correct.

 

[Ianno87]

the civil service have been against brexit all along.

Well, of course the civil service are against it. The civil service deals with facts and evidence, and is obliged to do so. All the facts and evidence have consistently demonstrated that leaving the EU will be detrimental to the UK and it's economy.

 

[Esker-pades]

parliament,the government and the civil service have been against brexit all along.

I don't mind having a go at parliament or the government, but lay off the civil service. Civil servents often implement policies which they do not like or agree with, but they try to the best of their ability because that is their job. Scapegoating the civil service for the serious and deep complexities of Brexit is poor and pointless.

May campaigned to leave.

No she didn't.

They have done everything possible to thwart brexit...

What things do you see as "thwarting Brexit"?

...and even now are trying to force us into the dreadful withdrawal agreement.

It's been voted down by parliament and it looks like it will be voted down again. So, it isn't being forced. That is the whole point of the meaningful vote, something which was originally seen by Brexit supporters as an attempt to "thwart Brexit".

There is nothing wrong with the brexit concept.

In theory, no. In practice, it is very, very complicated. We have seen this over the past 2.5 years.

it is the useless politicians (all parties) in the UK that have screwed it up big time.

I agree with the statement, but not in the way that I think you mean it.

Well its all gone t1ts up for them now. They cant get a Withdrawal Agreement (WA) through parliament. Labour will vote against it in the hope of forcing a general election, the ERG will vote against it and so will the DUP.
Why would they not? Its the same rubbish WA they rejected earlier this year.

The European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, which was passed by the same sorry mob of MP's who are in the commons now, mandates we leave in 17 days time if no WA. They have to pass primary legislation (a new act of Parliament) to repeal or amend that. not just pass a motion.

I'll take the word of people's whos job it is to know about these things, rather than you (given the past comments that have been made).

£5 at paddy power of a WTO leave end of march may be a good investment.

I think a better return would be to change £5 into euros and then change it back if we leave with no deal.

 

[dosxuk]

And there is a massive disconnect between the remain politicians and a huge number of leaver electors.

And vice-versa between leave politicians and remain voters. What should have happened after the referendum was a period of reflection while a consensus was built over what sort of brexit we could all get along with. May's refusing to actually say what she was going to ask for, the portrayal of the whole argument being an us-vs-them situation where we have to somehow "beat" the EU and the compete bypassing of any discussion about what the leave campaign was standing for means all sides have retreated to the bunkers. Everyone knows what they don't want, nobody is standing up and saying what they do want.

By the end of the week, we may be in the bizarre situation where we've decided we don't want may's deal, we don't want a no-deal exit, we don't want an extension and the numbers aren't looking great for a repeal of the automatic exit legislation. All with 14 days until we'll fall out while our government has collapsed.

 

[nidave]

How many votes on the deal have we had in parliament now.... Yet to put brexit to the people again would be an afront to democracy. Apparently

 

[DarloRich]

Voting voting - pressure pressure pressure! How will this go? What happens next?

 

[Darandio]

Voting voting - pressure pressure pressure! How will this go? What happens next?

Will be voted against and those that have switched by making claims to their constituents that this offers a better deal are putting their seats at risk next time around.

It's hard to find a way to describe this whole situation without a barrage of expletives.

 

[DarloRich]

Will be voted against and those that have switched by making claims to their constituents that this offers a better deal are putting their seats at risk next time around.

It's hard to find a way to describe this whole situation without a barrage of expletives.

The government cannot govern. The PM is fatally wounded and we have 14 days to Brexit!

Chaos!

 

[Esker-pades]

The government cannot govern. The PM is fatally wounded and we have 14 days to Brexit!

Chaos!

How many times have people said that and how many times has she continued after another "fatal wound" for May? It's getting slightly tedious now.

 

[Darandio]

Some saying the difference between the lobbies looked larger than last time. Interesting.

 

[DarloRich]

Ps the only question is how bad the defeat is. In usual terms this would end the PM. Post Brexit no one knows

 

[DarloRich]

How many times have people said that and how many times has she continued after another "fatal wound" for May? It's getting slightly tedious now.

See above! We are in a crazy political world these days

 

[Darandio]

How many times have people said that and how many times has she continued after another "fatal wound" for May? It's getting slightly tedious now.

In any other situation she wouldn't have survived last time around. The situation now is unique.

 

[Esker-pades]

In any other situation she wouldn't have survived last time around. The situation now is unique.

Oh, yes. It would be fantastically exciting if it wasn't so important.

 

[Esker-pades]

Meaningful Vote - Round 2:
For: 242
Against: 391
Majority: -149

 

[nidave]

The government cannot govern. The PM is fatally wounded and we have 14 days to Brexit!

Chaos!

All project fear just believe harder. Plus think of those blue passports.

 

[Howardh]

Thrashed. Time to ask the people.

 

[Esker-pades]

May: "I can confirm that it will be a free vote on this side of the house."
MPs: *Laughs*

That is the state our politics is in right now.

 

[nidave]

Thrashed. Time to ask the people.

Seems that the people are not allowed to be asked again. Only everyone in Westminster gets a chance to change thier mind, not the people.

 

[Esker-pades]

Seems that the people are not allowed to be asked again. Only everyone in Westminster gets a chance to change thier mind, not the people.

May: "...if this house wants a second referendum.."
MPs: "YES" "NO"

They have no idea.

 

[nidave]

the government motion will say that a no-deal Brexit remains the government’s default, unless there is a deal.

How toake things 100times worse.

 

[Ken H]

the government motion will say that a no-deal Brexit remains the government’s default, unless there is a deal.

How toake things 100times worse.

how can you negotiate when you say you wont walk away. people who say no deal is off the table are just stupid.

 

[DarloRich]

how can you negotiate when you say you wont walk away. people who say no deal is off the table are just stupid.

Where as you, of course, are a paragon of logic and intelligence!

It is a double bluff to deliver more time to negotiate and to make Brexit fans agree to a deal ( looking at you erg!)

the free vote us to ensure ministers don't resign tomorrow

 

[Esker-pades]

the government motion will say that a no-deal Brexit remains the government’s default, unless there is a deal.

How toake things 100times worse.

That isn't quite what was said. She said that it remained the default by law. That is correct, and remains to be correct until Article 50 is extended or withdrawn.

how can you negotiate when you say you wont walk away. people who say no deal is off the table are just stupid.

And it's that sort of pointless comment that illustrates the damaging discourse that Brexit has resulted in. Proper engagement with the arguments has been replaced with slanging matches.
People who do not support no deal fear that it has serious consequences for the economy. Thus, they will not vote for it and do everything they can to no inflict self-harm on the economy. That is my position also.

 

[Ken H]

That isn't quite what was said. She said that it remained the default by law. That is correct, and remains to be correct until Article 50 is extended or withdrawn.

And that can only be done if
1. parliament passes primary legislation to amend/repeal the European union (Withdrawal) Act 2018
2. the EU agrees.