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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

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berneyarms

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Loosely, I would say living memory is the period that a significant proportion of the population experienced at an age where they could remember it, so that most younger people could if they wished ask somebody who was there at the time. That puts it between 80 and 100 years, so I'd say WW2 was in but events in Ireland in the early 1920s are borderline.

Let’s be honest about it, from what I can tell (watching from Dublin) most people in GB seem to have little or no knowledge about Irish history, regardless (and many don’t care) - be it recent or early 20th Century or before. That’s even before we get into the obligations accepted by the UK Government under the Good Friday Agreement.
 
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eotw

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I have copied this from another forum I read, which gives an interesting insight into Project Fear.

This morning, we have a new analysis, from a financial think tank New Financial, dedicated to better capital markets, with no obvious bias, which paints a disturbing picture.

Instead of jobs, they have focused on assets. They identified 275 firms moving or preparing to move assets – “Banks have moved or are moving around £800bn in assets from the UK to the EU, insurance firms are moving tens of billions of assets, and asset managers have transferred more than £65bn in funds.”

This closely matches an earlier (January) analysis by the FT, so seems pretty valid. They highlight that this is not a projection – it has happened, and is permanent –

“….for many firms in banking and finance, Brexit effectively happened some time last year. The political uncertainty since the referendum has forced firms to assume the worst-case scenario of a ‘no deal’ Brexit with no transition period, and to prepare accordingly. Many large firms have had their new entities in the EU up and running for months, and having spent tens or hundreds of millions of dollars on their contingency plans are not going to relocate business back to the UK anytime soon.”

On the jobs front, they explain the discrepancy thus –

“…we think the debate about how many staff have been moved so far and whether that is higher or lower than expected a few years ago is a red herring. Firms are keen to move as few staff as possible and so far at least regulators have been flexible. This will change in the next few years. We have identified nearly 5,000 expected staff moves or local hires in response to Brexit, but this is from only a small minority of firms and we expect this number to increase significantly in the next few years.”

Less ‘Project Fear’, it seems, more ‘Project Complacency’.

What are the real economy impacts though? the report finds that –

“£800bn in bank assets is nearly 10% of the UK banking system. The final tally is likely to be much higher, which will reduce the UK’s tax base, supervisory influence and ultimately have an impact on jobs.”

On a straight line comparison, the financial sector is responsible for around 6.5% of GDP, so that means we’ve potentially lost just over 0.5% of GDP on a permanent basis already.

More alarmingly, finance plays an important role in the tax base, contribution around 11% of government revenues, which suggests a loss to the treasury of between £7bn – £8bn, again on a permanent basis. In a somewhat neat symmetry, this is very close to our current net contribution to the EU. No Brexit Bonus.

There will be many leaver posters on here who dismiss this and come out with reams of data as to why yet another independent specialist group is wrong, but to repeat, this is not a forecast or a projection of what may happen in years 1 – 15 post Brexit. this stuff has happened. It’s a report from an insider research group that has simply counted the announcements and joined the dots. It is backed up by other data, from other independent sources.

The loss of City jobs turns out to the be the red herring. These losses will follow, but it is the relocation of a huge chunk of the financial sectors assets that is the real Brexit story, and on this, Leavers have now completely lost the argument.

Everyone else has just lost the money.
 

HH

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So that's about £140-150m a week lost (and the only way is up!). Now, remind me, what was the true cost of the EU a week, after you took into account the refunds and grants?

But, of course, it's not about the economy, stupid.
 

EM2

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Let’s be honest about it, from what I can tell (watching from Dublin) most people in GB seem to have little or no knowledge about Irish history, regardless (and many don’t care) - be it recent or early 20th Century or before. That’s even before we get into the obligations accepted by the UK Government under the Good Friday Agreement.
I'm more and more counting myself lucky that when my O-Level History class were given the option of studying Ireland (described by my teacher as 'complex but a bit dull') or something else that I can't recall now (which was 'straightforward but quite exciting') we voted for the former.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Let’s be honest about it, from what I can tell (watching from Dublin) most people in GB seem to have little or no knowledge about Irish history, regardless (and many don’t care) - be it recent or early 20th Century or before. That’s even before we get into the obligations accepted by the UK Government under the Good Friday Agreement.

From a Dublin perspective, you can really go back in the realms of Irish history and let us know of how things there were when the Vikings held sway in the Dublin area...:smile:
 

nidave

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A couple of Intresting points made...
1. We have people on here complaining about housing and leaving the EU will fix that.
The number of empty homes across England has risen for the second consecutive year to more than 216,000, the highest level since 2012, according to official figures.
Number of empty homes in England rises to more than 216,000

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/mar/11/empty-homes-england-rises-property

2. The money we spent on eu membership.
Financial Firms Are Moving A Combined $1.2 Trillion In Assets And Funds From Britain To The European Union In Readiness For Brexit
https://stockmarketnews.today/2019/...o-the-european-union-in-readiness-for-brexit/

Taking the profit from these funds into account, It will mean a 1% cut in UK government tax receipts.
We have now lost approx twice the amount (a year) the cost of eu memship in lost tax take not counting jobs and the industries supplying these organisations.
 

Howardh

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A couple of Intresting points made...
1. We have people on here complaining about housing and leaving the EU will fix that.

Number of empty homes in England rises to more than 216,000

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/mar/11/empty-homes-england-rises-property

2. The money we spent on eu membership.

https://stockmarketnews.today/2019/...o-the-european-union-in-readiness-for-brexit/

Taking the profit from these funds into account, It will mean a 1% cut in UK government tax receipts.
We have now lost approx twice the amount (a year) the cost of eu memship in lost tax take not counting jobs and the industries supplying these organisations.
Ad that the number of immigrants from outside the EU continues to rise, and they will need homes.
 

Jonny

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Frankly, us Brexiteers are not going to give up anytime soon and the only way any reconciliation can occur is if Brexit goes through, irreversibly. Otherwise, the far right - which includes some elements that even a right-Tory such as myself finds distasteful - is going to grow and grow....

As an aside, anything that reduces the call on in-work benefits and the non-benefit side of the welfare state (which EU migrants - or other migrants for that matter - are more likely to be entitled to, due to a tendency to have (more) children) is a good thing. Reducing EU migration, at least to those subsets less likely to have children (higher-skilled) would have that additional benefit. PS that is what the BBC are not mentioning about the "Schools Crisis".
 

Jonny

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Number of empty homes in England rises to more than 216,000.

Still much fewer than those of us living with our parents 21+ or even 30+ in my case, becoming the new normal; reliable statistics for such things are hard to come by but there are likely at least 500,000 of us and it will likely need the cost-negative effect of a few million empty homes to change that.
 

Jonny

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Why are higher-skilled people less likely to have children?

It's an observed tendency...

It also helps not to have to worry about a family when taking leave to acquire new skills in the first place.
 

nidave

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Frankly, us Brexiteers are not going to give up anytime soon and the only way any reconciliation can occur is if Brexit goes through, irreversibly. Otherwise, the far right - which includes some elements that even a right-Tory such as myself finds distasteful - is going to grow and grow....

As an aside, anything that reduces the call on in-work benefits and the non-benefit side of the welfare state (which EU migrants - or other migrants for that matter - are more likely to be entitled to, due to a tendency to have (more) children) is a good thing. Reducing EU migration, at least to those subsets less likely to have children (higher-skilled) would have that additional benefit. PS that is what the BBC are not mentioning about the "Schools Crisis".
So basically give in to extremism. I had that with the Ira and Uda growing up. It's not a good path.

Frankly us remainers are never going to give up trying to stop brexit destroying the country and causing harm to those who are going to be poorer just. Threatening violence like you have done is pathetic and won't stop us trying to overturn brexit. You will thank us later.
 

alex397

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Ad that the number of immigrants from outside the EU continues to rise, and they will need homes.

And leaving the EU isn't going to change the number of immigrants coming here from outside the EU. (we actually get far less than most other European countries btw)
 

jellybaby

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As an aside, anything that reduces the call on in-work benefits and the non-benefit side of the welfare state (which EU migrants - or other migrants for that matter - are more likely to be entitled to, due to a tendency to have (more) children) is a good thing.
The average EU migrant is a net-contributor to the UK economy.
 

fowler9

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Frankly, us Brexiteers are not going to give up anytime soon and the only way any reconciliation can occur is if Brexit goes through, irreversibly. Otherwise, the far right - which includes some elements that even a right-Tory such as myself finds distasteful - is going to grow and grow....

As an aside, anything that reduces the call on in-work benefits and the non-benefit side of the welfare state (which EU migrants - or other migrants for that matter - are more likely to be entitled to, due to a tendency to have (more) children) is a good thing. Reducing EU migration, at least to those subsets less likely to have children (higher-skilled) would have that additional benefit. PS that is what the BBC are not mentioning about the "Schools Crisis".
So if we don't leave the far right is going to grow and grow but it is apparently remain that had project fear. As a result of this the answer is to appease those on the far right which obviously always works.
 

306024

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Amusingly one of the many 'Euro' souvenir shops in Brussels are selling ties with all the member nations flags on them.

There are two versions available, currently at the same price.
 

Rob F

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So basically give in to extremism. I had that with the Ira and Uda growing up. It's not a good path.

Frankly us remainers are never going to give up trying to stop brexit destroying the country and causing harm to those who are going to be poorer just. Threatening violence like you have done is pathetic and won't stop us trying to overturn brexit. You will thank us later.
Well said, sir.
 

radamfi

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47523168

McVey:
"If anyone had said the 1975 referendum on the common market would lead to the EU with free movement of people and so many laws being decided by majority qualified voting, people would have said it was rubbish and untrue and yet it happened.

Eh? Free movement has been in place since the Treaty of Rome, 1958.
 

eotw

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The biggest difficulty with free movement has been the eastern enlargement of the EU, which is a change rather more recent than both 1958 and 1975.
And which country was pushing for the enlargement? The UK.
 

bramling

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So if we don't leave the far right is going to grow and grow but it is apparently remain that had project fear. As a result of this the answer is to appease those on the far right which obviously always works.

I’m not sure the growth of the “far right” will necessarily be the issue. But I do think there would be a major long-running sore that the political establishment would be seen to have deliberately subverted a democratic process which they undertook to honour. The long-term damage might not be violence nor the growth of fringe parties, but massive apathy and disillusionment.

In all honesty I think we’re already at that point simply with both major parties having handled the whole issue so incompetently, as well as the total lack of a domestic agenda for the last two years. How much of Cameron’s 2015 manifesto was ever delivered? Not to mention other stuff like the antisemitism row within Labour and the divided nature of both parties (especially Labour who have more structural divisions beyond Brexit policy - apart from Brexit the Conservatives aren’t visibly divided and tearing themselves apart) - in more normal times this would have been pretty electorally damaging for a party. Oh and the small issue of a Labour front bench and party who are unpalatable and unsavoury to many!
 

bramling

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And which country was pushing for the enlargement? The UK.

Again, politicians out of step with public opinion?

I do wonder that part (and only part) of the U.K. population’s malaise towards the EU is that domestic politicians can’t be trusted to reflect public opinion when it comes to dealing with the EU, hence UKIP grew and flourished as a mitigation to this. The last two years have simply echoed all this.

It’s for this reason that I suspect any second referendum would likely return a stronger leave vote.

The campaign would certainly be pretty easy - all the side of the bus would need to say is “we told you once” or “which part of leave don’t you politicians understand?”.

On a different note, what do we think of today’s developments? A breakthrough, or more of the same? I haven’t really had time to follow it in much detail yet.
 
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radamfi

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the divided nature of both parties (especially Labour who have more structural divisions beyond Brexit policy - apart from Brexit the Conservatives aren’t visibly divided and tearing themselves apart) - in more normal times this would have been pretty electorally damaging for a party. Oh and the small issue of a Labour front bench and party who are unpalatable and unsavoury to many!

With a proper voting system, we wouldn't need to have two major parties that are effectively coalitions of many, quite distinct, groupings. These groupings could be parties in their own rights.
 

Jonny

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Does that include Rees-Mogg?
So there's no actual evidence then?
People who are already highly skilled tend to have higher incomes and can afford to have larger families, no?

Sometimes there is an uptick in the number of children at the very high income end, and some have religious beliefs that lend to large families (or both, as per Mr Rees-Mogg), but why would the two-child cap on child-related benefits (only applied for births after 2017) have even seen the light of day if there was not a negative correlation between income and skill level and number of children?
PS It also helps if you filter out those who do not have children from the statistics, so that you can consider those who choose to have children.

It is also fair to say that the uptick in birth rate has correlated with an increase in migration.

So basically give in to extremism. I had that with the Ira and Uda growing up. It's not a good path.

Frankly us remainers are never going to give up trying to stop brexit destroying the country and causing harm to those who are going to be poorer just. Threatening violence like you have done is pathetic and won't stop us trying to overturn brexit. You will thank us later.

And for me there were large chunks of the Northern Ireland settlemement, e.g. the whole parades commission business, where the extremists were appeased. Warning that there are others with similar philosophical views to myself on Brexit but have tendencies to deploy certain methodologies that I find abhorrent (such as violence) is not the same as threatening violence.

It is also a slightly different case, a Conservative-led Brexit, whether hard or soft, would take the wind from the sails of the far right. Appeasement is a poor comparison, to revise Winston Churchill's appeasement and crocodile quote it is more like feeding the crocodile (in this case being the far right) with material that it cannot derive nutritional value from so that it starves while also buying enough time to deal with it.

Besides we cannot say what a hard Brexit would have done if it doesn't happen.

And which country was pushing for the enlargement? The UK.

More precisely Tony Blair, who was out on a limb but acting as representative pushed for the enlargement. Mr Blair also used the EU to make it very hard to undo various legislative changes, which was naughty of him.
 
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