Future ECML & LNER Services

[TheBigD]

Downside of course is that Inverness/Aberdeen passengers will have a slower run with more stops between Edinburgh & London. I can remeber a while that the northbound Chieftain stopped at Peterborough, but the southbound didn't? Wasn't it an NXEC timetable change that saw the Chieftain's stop removed?

I'm not so sure as it's planned to speed up the semi fast path to Edinburgh to around 4hr26. Assuming the Highland Chieftain still leaves Kings Cross at 12:00 it could still be in the same path from Edinburgh at 16:34. Southbound may be around 5 minutes longer though.

 

[Glenn1969]

Living in Halifax which has 4 GC London trains currently should I be worried about the effect that a more regular EC Bradford service could have on GC's Bradford footfall or is my London service secure long term ?

 

[ainsworth74]

Living in Halifax which has 4 GC London trains currently should I be worried about the effect that a more regular EC Bradford service could have on GC's Bradford footfall or is my London service secure long term ?

That is perhaps one of the interesting known unknowns in this scenario. How much damage will LNER be able to do to Grand Centrals market. Both their Bradford services but also their Sunderland services.

A two hourly service to Bradford and then a two hourly service to Middlesbrough (not served directly by GC but Eaglescliffe acts a rail head for them for Teesside) may make a significant dent in their profitability.

Certainly the first time I came across the proposed post-IET timetable one of my first thoughts was that it was a direct attack on Grand Central.

 

[cle]

A lot of Scots travelling to the East Midlands and East Anglia travel via Peterborough, including well north of Edinburgh. I think those stops are very important. To me it's a much more strategic call than Doncaster or Darlington.

 

[VT 390]

Once HS2 is built would it be possible to stop some LNER services at smaller East Coast stations such as Huntington, this would provide some places (especially south of Peterborough) a faster service to London.

 

[Senex]

Once HS2 is built would it be possible to stop some LNER services at smaller East Coast stations such as Huntington, this would provide some places (especially south of Peterborough) a faster service to London.

Who can say what service-patterns will be needed in fifteen years' time? There are too many "ifs". For example, if after Brexit the North-East does become, as some predictions suggest, the region just about most severely economically affected, and if Scotland were to decide to go its own way and re-join the EU, it would be the ECML that could be most severely affected and all today's predictions for services after the opening of an HS2 — which might not even get built under those circumstances — would look very different.

 

[cactustwirly]

If HS2 phase 2 is built then the ECML timetable should introduce more stops at Peterborough as it will no longer be the quickest route for stations north of York or Leeds as this will improve connectivity from the north to Leicester and Cambridge/Ipswich/Norwich routes.

But Leicester is better served from the MML heading north!
You can get to Leeds, York, Doncaster, Newcastle etc from Sheffield/Derby.
Going via Peterborough is quite a detour, and it's actually slower!

 

[Aictos]

But Leicester is better served from the MML heading north!
You can get to Leeds, York, Doncaster, Newcastle etc from Sheffield/Derby.
Going via Peterborough is quite a detour, and it's actually slower!

Can you explain how it's slower to go via Peterborough for Leeds then via Sheffield?

 

[cactustwirly]

Can you explain how it's slower to go via Peterborough for Leeds then via Sheffield?

Leicester to Sheffield is about an hour, and about 40 minutes after that.
Leicester to Peterborough is about an hour, plus another 1hr 40mins to get to Leeds.
Also trains from Leicester to Sheffield are more frequent than ones to Peterborough!

 

[Aictos]

Leicester to Sheffield is about an hour, and about 40 minutes after that.
Leicester to Peterborough is about an hour, plus another 1hr 40mins to get to Leeds.
Also trains from Leicester to Sheffield are more frequent than ones to Peterborough!

However if you go from Peterborough then it's more quicker to Leeds

 

[800001]

Not going to happen - LNER are planning end of 2019 unless something drastic had changed for them to be able to cut 8 months off...

The 1st Azuma diagram to enter service is aiming for mid April 2019, not the end of 2019, aiming for type acceptance in the next 2-3 weeks.

 

[_toommm_]

The 1st Azuma diagram to enter service is aiming for mid April 2019, not the end of 2019, aiming for type acceptance in the next 2-3 weeks.

Where is this coming from? Has crew training even begun yet?

 

[ainsworth74]

Where is this coming from? Has crew training even begun yet?

I've heard it from a well placed source within LNER.

 

[Class 170101]

The 1st Azuma diagram to enter service is aiming for mid April 2019, not the end of 2019, aiming for type acceptance in the next 2-3 weeks.

Where is this coming from? Has crew training even begun yet?

Surely you need the former before the latter can begin anyway? I'd be surprised if ASLEF / RMT will have it any other way.

 

[800001]

Where is this coming from? Has crew training even begun yet?

It's been under way for several months.
Upwards of 80+ Drivers and Train managers have been trained.

Several daily diagrams every day out and about.

 

[Aictos]

It's been under way for several months.
Upwards of 80+ Drivers and Train managers have been trained.

Several daily diagrams every day out and about.

Indeed it has with Edinburgh being one such depot that is being trained up on them as my own source is now a fully trained up Azuma driver having recently qualified.

So yes it has been under way for several months with the April introduction also being the date I've been told Azumas will be entering public service.

 

[_toommm_]

Indeed it has with Edinburgh being one such depot that is being trained up on them as my own source is now a fully trained up Azuma driver having recently qualified.

So yes it has been under way for several months with the April introduction also being the date I've been told Azumas will be entering public service.

I knew they had been going test runs but I didn't realise the guards and other on board staff had been trained too.

 

[47421]

seeing that news about FirstGroup order for AT300s for their open access operation reminded me of the below from a recent Transport Select Committee report (https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmpubacc/1793/179305.htm#_idTextAnchor004)

Summer recess will start sometime in July so perhaps we will find out some more then

4.It is unacceptable that passengers still do not know when the improvements to services that the Department promised them from the failed East Coast franchise will be delivered. The Department promised passengers an improved service when it let the East Coast franchise to Virgin Trains East Coast (VTEC) in 2014, including reduced journey times, new services, and a large increase in seat numbers. Also, new direct services with some northern towns and cities were promised from May 2020. After the franchise entered financial difficulties in 2017, the Department terminated the franchise in June 2018, bringing it back into the public sector. The Department now operates the franchise under the brand of London North Eastern Railway (LNER). The Department asserts that the commitments given by the VTEC franchise are the same as those in the Department’s Services Agreement with LNER, including the introduction of new direct services. However, infrastructure enhancements on the East Coast are necessary to enable these direct services to be introduced and the Department could only tell us that this work will be completed throughout the early 2020s. Infrastructure enhancements will therefore not be in time to support the introduction of the new direct services by May 2020 as promised, and we remain unclear when the new services will run. The Department also expects a new public-private east coast partnership will operate on the route from 2020 and it is not clear whether LNER will be operating the new direct services or the new east coast partnership.

Recommendation: By summer recess, the Department should write to the Committee setting out in detail when the new direct services to towns and cities such as Huddersfield, Sunderland and Middlesbrough, promised on the east coast railway when the VTEC franchise was awarded will begin, reflecting the latest plans for necessary infrastructure enhancements.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Have any of the service enhancements planned by Virgin Trains East Coast (VTEC) been officially scrapped now that LNER has taken over? If not, have LNER confirmed that they will retain a small number of IC225s (as VTEC had planned) in order to allow them to operate the additional services proposed?

 

[Starmill]

Have any of the service enhancements planned by Virgin Trains East Coast (VTEC) been officially scrapped now that LNER has taken over? If not, have LNER confirmed that they will retain a small number of IC225s (as VTEC had planned) in order to allow them to operate the additional services proposed?

The rolling stock plan has evolved significantly since then.
However, the public front from the Department has been that everything VTEC were committed to will still apply under LNER.

 

[Lincoln]

I see the Newarks terminators have been extended to Lincoln from the September timetable. This will give Lincoln 5 trains each way on Weekdays & Saturdays.

I've attached PDFs of the times at Lincoln - by tapping/clicking on the head codes, a link will open with train details in Realtime Trains.

 

[Failed Unit]

I wonder how they will do this. Will they just berth it at Lincoln for over an hour? I understand when the timetable was planned with the 180s they were going to do a return (Lincoln - Newark) in the dead time.

 

[swt_passenger]

I wonder how they will do this. Will they just berth it at Lincoln for over an hour? I understand when the timetable was planned with the 180s they were going to do a return (Lincoln - Newark) in the dead time.

It’s possibly already been mentioned in the 2019 timetable discussion, but doesn’t RTT show them running as ECS to a stabling or reversing siding, Lincoln Terrace CHS.

 

[Failed Unit]

It’s possibly already been mentioned in the 2019 timetable discussion, but doesn’t RTT show them running as ECS to a stabling or reversing siding, Lincoln Terrace CHS.

Ok makes sense. Thank you.

 

[43096]

Have any of the service enhancements planned by Virgin Trains East Coast (VTEC) been officially scrapped now that LNER has taken over? If not, have LNER confirmed that they will retain a small number of IC225s (as VTEC had planned) in order to allow them to operate the additional services proposed?

The VTEC franchise agreement allowed the retention of either Mark 4s or HSTs.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The rolling stock plan has evolved significantly since then.
However, the public front from the Department has been that everything VTEC were committed to will still apply under LNER.

So, the IC225s are probably still required then; but ultimately still undecided?

The VTEC franchise agreement allowed the retention of either Mark 4s or HSTs.

Interesting; with IC225s being PRM compliant and IC125s not it's surprising that the option to keep IC125s instead was left in there.

 

[ainsworth74]

So, the IC225s are probably still required then; but ultimately still undecided?

The last rumour I heard from within VTEC (as it would have been then) was that they were seriously considering lashing 43s together with the Mk4s as it was felt to be easier to resolve the electrical issues with using 43s with conventional stock than make the Mk3s compliant.

 

[43096]

Interesting; with IC225s being PRM compliant and IC125s not it's surprising that the option to keep IC125s instead was left in there.

Not that surprising as Stagecoach would know the issues with IEP diesel performance and having the HST there as a possible option is sensible. There are also senior people in Stagecoach who have a very high regard for the HST and its capabilities.

 

[philjo]

I see the Newarks terminators have been extended to Lincoln from the September timetable. This will give Lincoln 5 trains each way on Weekdays & Saturdays.

I've attached PDFs of the times at Lincoln - by tapping/clicking on the head codes, a link will open with train details in Realtime Trains.

In the April Modern Railways that arrived yesterday it mentioned that there will also be a new 0806 from Kings Cross to Lincoln - though it looked like that was starting in December ? That will also help fill the gap at Stevenage as there is the xx:28 stopper northbound at every hour except 0828.
A 2-hourly extension of LNER services from Leeds to Harrogate also start in December. Are these the trains that call at Stevenage and Grantham or the Peterborough ones?

The Modern Railways article also mentioned that until the power supply upgrades in the Doncaster area and north of Berwick were completed later this year there was insufficient supply for many additional electric services which is one of the reasons the HSTs will be kept on instead of the 91s for the first few months.

Have any of the service enhancements planned by Virgin Trains East Coast (VTEC) been officially scrapped now that LNER has taken over? If not, have LNER confirmed that they will retain a small number of IC225s (as VTEC had planned) in order to allow them to operate the additional services proposed?

There was also talk in the article of possibly ordering new trains to replace the other 91s instead of retaining the small fleet of 225s as the costs of new trains had dropped significantly over the last couple of years.

 

[Failed Unit]

The 0806 would be wonderful if it happened. It is amazing how noticeable that gap is and how I always seem to select trains north that I need to risk using GTR to get to Peterborough.

Wonder if GC will want to relinquish the path?

Often heard about operators replacing the class 91s but keeping the mk4 coaches. What are people’s views on this. Would it really help as the loco is a single point of failure irrespective. Unless they do a HST type situation and sandwich the mk4s between 2x locos.