Future ECML & LNER Services

[swt_passenger]

and is the Middlesbrough service still happening?

There’s no evidence that it isn’t. They need somewhere to deploy all their 5 car bimodes in any case...

 

[JonathanH]

There’s no evidence that it isn’t. They need somewhere to deploy all their 5 car bimodes in any case...

They have only got 10. Once you have accounted for Lincoln and Harrogate, presumably anything to Middlesbrough (or even Huddersfield) is in marginal time especially if Harrogate trains are not going to split in Leeds?

 

[Marton]

There’s no evidence that it isn’t. They need somewhere to deploy all their 5 car bimodes in any case...

But is it to be 5 car? The local press have reported the platform isn’t long enough for the New Trains. I’m sure platform 2 will take 5. It takes a 6 car 185 ok.

 

[swt_passenger]

They have only got 10. Once you have accounted for Lincoln and Harrogate, presumably anything to Middlesbrough (or even Huddersfield) is in marginal time especially if Harrogate trains are not going to split in Leeds?

Middlesbrough is definitely 2 hourly in the track access application that this thread is all about...

 

[swt_passenger]

But is it to be 5 car? The local press have reported the platform isn’t long enough for the New Trains. I’m sure platform 2 will take 5. It takes a 6 car 185 ok.

No idea. Platforms can be extended of course.

 

[Ryry]

Middlesbrough is definitely 2 hourly in the track access application that this thread is all about...

Wasn't there talks when the azuma first came about it was going to go to Middlesbrough but due to the lack of platforms and the length they wouldn't fit

 

[Glenn1969]

Middlesbrough station improvement is on the NR/DFT September enhancements list, but only at Stage 1 of the process

 

[55002]

Looks like 0640 LDS-KGX Starts at Huddersfield at 0550 from May timetable, return there’s a 2032 from LDS, which may come off 1733 KGX-HGT although that would mean sitting in Leeds for almost 45 mins, which isn’t ideal.

 

[Failed Unit]

Looks like 0640 LDS-KGX Starts at Huddersfield at 0550 from May timetable, return there’s a 2032 from LDS, which may come off 1733 KGX-HGT although that would mean sitting in Leeds for almost 45 mins, which isn’t ideal.

What about the 1748 Kings Cross - Leeds? It arrives about 2017.

 

[ainsworth74]

It comes off the Skipton service.

 

[Failed Unit]

So they are really going to split / join trains in service? I know the 0640 is 2x 5 car sets. Is that the one that splits in London for the Lincoln route?

 

[xotGD]

It comes off the Skipton service.

That makes sense. The numbers on board after Leeds could fit on a 153, never mind a 10-coach Azuma.

 

[ainsworth74]

So they are really going to split / join trains in service? I know the 0640 is 2x 5 car sets. Is that the one that splits in London for the Lincoln route?

Eventually they'll have no choice I think due to the fleet that was ordered for them by the DfT. At the moment I don't think LNER have booked anything to split/join with trains that are in the middle of a service (i.e. with passengers onboard). It happens between services. I.e. that 10-car splits in Kings Cross after it's arrived from Leeds during the time before the Lincoln service is due to depart. So this might be the first time that a split/join move is booked to happen with passengers aboard.

Doubtless someone will now point out that I've missed this being a booked move somewhere on the LNER route.

That makes sense. The numbers on board after Leeds could fit on a 153, never mind a 10-coach Azuma.

Exactly. This is one of the few places where the 5-car Azuma's do, to be fair to the DfT, make some sense. Having 5-car units shuttle around West Yorkshire before joining together in Leeds makes a lot more sense than sending full length rakes off to those destinations whilst most of the time the passengers on board could have a carriage each.

 

[Glenn1969]

The Huddersfield train is now on RTT. It does appear to split from the Skipton service at Leeds. But is 11 minutes from decoupling to the departure to Huddersfield at 2032 realistic? It also calls at Dewsbury in both directions

 

[43074]

The Huddersfield train is now on RTT. It does appear to split from the Skipton service at Leeds. But is 11 minutes from decoupling to the departure to Huddersfield at 2032 realistic? It also calls at Dewsbury in both directions

Yes there are plenty of detachments made with less than eleven minutes, certainly no reason why that shouldn't work. If I remember rightly the train service spec for the 800s and 801s specified they had to be capable of doing so in three minutes.

 

[XC victim]

Are the planned Bradford FS services still happening? If so when?

 

[swt_passenger]

Eventually they'll have no choice I think due to the fleet that was ordered for them by the DfT. At the moment I don't think LNER have booked anything to split/join with trains that are in the middle of a service (i.e. with passengers onboard). It happens between services. I.e. that 10-car splits in Kings Cross after it's arrived from Leeds during the time before the Lincoln service is due to depart. So this might be the first time that a split/join move is booked to happen with passengers aboard.

Doubtless someone will now point out that I've missed this being a booked move somewhere on the LNER route.


Exactly. This is one of the few places where the 5-car Azuma's do, to be fair to the DfT, make some sense. Having 5-car units shuttle around West Yorkshire before joining together in Leeds makes a lot more sense than sending full length rakes off to those destinations whilst most of the time the passengers on board could have a carriage each.

I wonder also if they were being economical with their earlier explanations.
If someone had asked “Are trains leaving Kings Cross as 10 car and splitting for two different destinations”? They’d presumably have answered no.
But if asked “Are trains leaving Kings Cross as 10 car and reducing to 5 cars for the last leg beyond Leeds? “Yes“. A subtle difference...

 

[Fuzzytop]

For a few weeks running up to the December 2019 timetable change, the evening Skipton services were 2x5-car with only one 5-car continuing past Leeds.

In general the split was handled comfortably and rapidly - I guess the current long dwell at Leeds includes time to lock out Mk4 coaches for short platforms at Keighley/Skipton.

The Skipton service is currently an evening meal train - presumably they will now have to roster an additional chef to work the other half?

 

[Class 170101]

For a few weeks running up to the December 2019 timetable change, the evening Skipton services were 2x5-car with only one 5-car continuing past Leeds.

The Skipton service is currently an evening meal train - presumably they will now have to roster an additional chef to work the other half?

Or have the evening meal in one portion only? Presumably thats what has been happening the past few weeks as a 2*5 set?

 

[John C]

Are the planned Bradford FS services still happening? If so when?

From May LNER services to/from Bradford Forster Square are showing as follows:

1A07 0630 to London (0700 departure from Leeds)
1A19 0843 to London (0915 departure from Leeds)

1D22 1633 from London (1929 arrival in Bradford)
1D28 1833 from London (2129 arrival in Bradford)

 

[ainsworth74]

1D22 1633 from London (1929 arrival in Bradford)

I wonder how this will do compared to 1627 Grand Central to Bradford Interchange (arriving 1921)...

 

[Glenn1969]

Edit- GC paths were loaded today. I hope the new train to Forster Square doesn't affect the Interchange service

 

[Peter Bonner]

I wonder how this will do compared to 1627 Grand Central to Bradford Interchange (arriving 1921)...

Chances are that if the Bradford unit has to attach to another at Leeds the chances of delay are massive. If I lived locally I wd go for GC. Split workings will only work if the railway in general is reliable.

 

[ainsworth74]

Chances are that if the Bradford unit has to attach to another at Leeds the chances of delay are massive. If I lived locally I wd go for GC. Split workings will only work if the railway in general is reliable.

It doesn't appear to drop a unit off at Leeds. There's no other moves booked around Leeds that would seem like an ECS or service to another destination.

 

[ryan125hst]

One thing I've noticed about the new timetable is a greater amount of skip stopping. For example, it looks like Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham and Newark will only be linked every two hours ultimately on the Newcastle stopper, with there being no Peterborough call in the alternate hour. The current Lincoln stopper, which will change from York to Harrogate in the alternate hour, will have it's Peterborough stop removed.

What I am least pleased with is that Retford will still be stuck with a service every two hours. Stations north of York have the benefit of Transpennine Express and CrossCountry, so stations such as Northallerton are well served.

If they added Retford to the Newcastle stoppers and made the Peterborough stop hourly, then I don't think the planned timetable is too bad.

However, I also wonder why the Edinburgh fast service stops at York every two hours. Wouldn't it be better to standardise on an hourly call at York or omit the call altogether? Also, I see the new timetable will see Doncaster and Wakefield Westgate linked hourly instead of twice an hour as they are currently. Is there much demand for passengers travelling between these stations?

 

[Glenn1969]

Doncaster and Wakefield are still linked twice an hour on RTT?

 

[Failed Unit]

A bit of devils advocate- but missing the Peterborough stop from Lincoln could be viewed as acceptable because of the joint line service.

Likewise Doncaster to Leeds have a Northern service.

Retford will be hourly with Hull trains (assuming the dont follow each other)

but I agree not having an hourly stopping service is a backwards step. However demand between Newark and Grantham for example is low because of the high parking charges.

 

[tbtc]

What I am least pleased with is that Retford will still be stuck with a service every two hours. Stations north of York have the benefit of Transpennine Express and CrossCountry, so stations such as Northallerton are well served.

If they added Retford to the Newcastle stoppers and made the Peterborough stop hourly, then I don't think the planned timetable is too bad

I know everything is a compromise and you can't serve every market perfectly (etc) but it's a shame about Retford given that Northern are now running two trains per hour from there to Gainsborough (in one direction) and Worksop/ Sheffield (in the other direction), so there could be a market for North Nottinghamshire connections (given how poor the services from Nottingham to the north is)... not that I'm only suggesting this in the hope of competitive Sheffield - London connections, you understand

 

[ryan125hst]

Doncaster and Wakefield are still linked twice an hour on RTT?

Sorry, should have said that this is regarding the proposed timetable from May 2020 (see OP)

 

[Glenn1969]

That is the same as now between Doncaster and Wakefield and between Peterborough and Lincoln Mon to Sat and Sun afternoon and evening