New trains for East Midlands Franchise

[grumpyoldman01]

An all-158 fleet would not surprise me. Or 170s maybe?

There's now a report on the Railway Gazette website which states that there will be complete replacement of the current regional fleet, which implies that the 158s will also go

 

[chubs]

A split in the Norwich - Liverpool service is a real backwards step.

Although a lot on here try and claim everyone just goes via London whenever it's discussed as a semi regular user of the service I see the opposite. Really disappointing.

 

[td97]

I've always thought it would be sensible to cascade the GWR Class 800s over and replace them with class 801s once electrification reaches Bristol, Cardiff and Oxford. The timescale of 2022 would work too. Seems unlikely though as the statement specifies 'brand-new' and not just 'new'.

 

[gc1982]

I take it 379's for Corby is a given?

 

[jfowkes]

Any idea what they are likely to use for the hydrogen trial?

 

[superalbs]

Any idea what they are likely to use for the hydrogen trial?

Probably either 321 or 230 given they are the only ones available? But wasn't it for InterCity?

Wouldn't fancy Bombardier trying to figure out hydrogen considering how much luck they have with simple electrics.

 

[hwl]

Probably either 321 or 230 given they are the only ones available? But wasn't it for InterCity?

Wouldn't fancy Bombardier trying to figure out hydrogen considering how much luck they have with simple electrics.

Or Porterbrook's 769001, they specified MML but not intercity.
Bombardier's issue isn't electrics it is software.

 

[superalbs]

Bombardier's issue isn't electrics it is software.

I was referring to the train they have problems with, rather than the actual component.

 

[jopsuk]

I guess we'll find more out after the stand-still?

 

[Qwerty133]

There's now a report on the Railway Gazette website which states that there will be complete replacement of the current regional fleet, which implies that the 158s will also go

Probably to be replaced by different 158s just so that Abellio and the DfT could claim that the whole fleet was being replaced...
Unfortunately, I do expect that someone will currently be working out how to best fit aircon to 150s and 156s to meet these requirements (the 153s are toxic in the area and I expect will be turned into coke cans).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Probably to be replaced by different 158s just so that Abellio and the DfT could claim that the whole fleet was being replaced...
Unfortunately, I do expect that someone will currently be working out how to best fit aircon to 150s and 156s to meet these requirements (the 153s are toxic in the area and I expect will be turned into coke cans).

153s are useless other than as a bolt-on as ScotRail intends to use them, as once you fit a PRM bog and 2 wheelchair spaces you've got hardly any seats left, much like small low-floor buses.

 

[Nymanic]

Perhaps the 175s are seen as a target for this franchise? I presume they wouldn't be numerous enough to cover the full regional fleet, though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps the 175s are seen as a target for this franchise? I presume they wouldn't be numerous enough to cover the full regional fleet, though.

Didn't think of those. I'm not sure how popular they would be, though, given their reliability issues. I can see them having an early demise.

If they do, possibly a combination of 170 and 175?

 

[JonathanH]

Probably either 321 or 230 given they are the only ones available? But wasn't it for InterCity?

Given the experience with other fleets no doubt they will find corrosion when they come to do conversion work on the 321s.

 

[nat67]

If this hasn't been mentioned but once the order has been done it will take 6-12 months building the new stuff. And then the mileage accumulation plus driver training will take time. There will still be HST's running into 2020 at least.

I think XC will go for the 222's as they are similar to the 220/221's and may put them on the 170 diagrams.

 

[supervc-10]

Or cascade the shorter 4 car Voyagers onto the 170 diagrams and then the longer Meridians on current Voyager diagrams?

 

[hwl]

If this hasn't been mentioned but once the order has been done it will take 6-12 months building the new stuff. And then the mileage accumulation plus driver training will take time. There will still be HST's running into 2020 at least.

I think XC will go for the 222's as they are similar to the 220/221's and may put them on the 170 diagrams.

The new stuff starts arriving in 2022 which give bit of hint about who might be building it given current order backlogs...

 

[Metal_gee_man]

I still think that Stadler will be in the running, Abellio have obviously a history with them in Anglia, people have said ooh the power unit will take up valuable platform length but the power car length on both ends of class 43s is longer than the power car of a flirt at only 6.69m vs 2 x 17.79m on a class 43! They already make tri-mode versions with batteries as well, plus would you want to sit on a hydrogen bomb under your feet or you can have a hydrogen bomb as a mid car of a 9 car train (I know which one I'd prefer) we also know that Hitachi can't produce bi-modes for 2022, and Bombardier can't get right many of the EMUs they produce let alone the Bi-Modes they've not even built or sold before in Europe!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I still think that Stadler will be in the running, Abellio have obviously a history with them in Anglia, people have said ooh the power unit will take up valuable platform length but the power car length on both ends of class 43s is longer than the power car of a flirt at only 6.69m vs 2 x 17.79m on a class 43! They already make tri-mode versions with batteries as well, plus would you want to sit on a hydrogen bomb under your feet or you can have a hydrogen bomb as a mid car of a 9 car train (I know which one I'd prefer) we also know that Hitachi can't produce bi-modes for 2022, and Bombardier can't get right many of the EMUs they produce let alone the Bi-Modes they've not even built or sold before in Europe!

Can the FLIRTs do 125 on diesel? I don't think they can?

 

[Qwerty133]

Or cascade the shorter 4 car Voyagers onto the 170 diagrams and then the longer Meridians on current Voyager diagrams?

I believe that there are issues with Voyagers (or any DMUS longer than 3 car) going to Stansted due to the roof (although I'd personally give the airport the option of funding improvements to allow it or see the service cut back to Cambridge) so it might not be that simple to cascade the Voyagers to the 170 routes. I'd also imagine that XC would want to use a significant proportion of the 222s to increase capacity on its core routes rather than replace arguably more suitable stock on the routes that I doubt they have much interest in (see also the continuation of contracted out catering on the 170 routes).

 

[Chester1]

The new stuff starts arriving in 2022 which give bit of hint about who might be building it given current order backlogs...

Hitachi? After current deliveries are finished they only have the 5 unit order from First for their ECML open access service. 800s and 802s are too slow on diesel to match Meridian timings. They could fit 1 or 2 extra diesel engines in 9 coach sets so maybe "803s"? If its Bombardier I will be gobsmacked if they enter service on time with their current work book. Derby is a huge factory compared with Newton Aycliffe though.

 

[hwl]

Can the FLIRTs do 125 on diesel? I don't think they can?

The also don't meet the acceleration performance criteria.

 

[hwl]

Hitachi? After current deliveries are finished they only have the 5 unit order from First for their ECML open access service. 800s and 802s are too slow on diesel to match Meridian timings. They could fit 1 or 2 extra diesel engines in 9 coach sets so maybe "803s"? If its Bombardier I will be gobsmacked if they enter service on time with their current work book. Derby is a huge factory compared with Newton Aycliffe though.

Correct Hitachi won't have much work in the future.
The only company /factory that has a current order backlog till 2022 is Derby...
Circa 1900cars still to build.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

0.9m/s on Diesel, 1.1ms on Electric for a 4 car unit, but it also discussed that they haven't put the most powerful power cars on the Greater Anglia units they have space for 4 engines or add a 2nd power car to a 9 car train all I say is don't discount them, they have the facilities and the ability to carry it out

 

[hwl]

A gentle reminder of this from Rail mag 12 months ago:
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/bombardier-bi-mode-aventra-to-feature-battery-power

Bombardier has confirmed development of a 125mph bi-mode Aventra that could also include battery technology.

The Derby-based manufacturer plans to offer it to three upcoming franchise competitions, while also confirming it sees potential to export the trains.

Spokesman Will Tanner told RAIL that Bombardier plans to offer it for the East Midlands, West Coast Partnership and CrossCountry franchises, and confirmed that should any deals for the trains be won, they would be built at Derby Litchurch Lane where development work has already taken place.

Tanner explained that the company believes there remains a strong demand for bi-mode trains. The Aventra bi-mode would offer a maximum 125mph speed in both diesel and electric, and Bombardier claimed the ambience would be far better than other bi-mode units on the market. An option for ‘last-mile’ battery power is also being considered....

 

[Chester1]

Correct Hitachi won't have much work in the future.
The only company /factory that has a current order backlog till 2022 is Derby...
Circa 1900cars still to build.

The franchise spec required new intercity trains from 2023 so I doubt time was a critical factor. Hitachi really need the work for Newton Aycliffe and probably offered a lower price, with earlier delivery a bonus. It would be a good order to fill much of the time between the end of their current orders and HS2 first fleet (if their joint bid with Bombardier succeeds).

0.9m/s on Diesel, 1.1ms on Electric for a 4 car unit, but it also discussed that they haven't put the most powerful power cars on the Greater Anglia units they have space for 4 engines or add a 2nd power car to a 9 car train all I say is don't discount them, they have the facilities and the ability to carry it out

The new units have to match Meridian timings which is why Hitachi could not have submitted 800s or 802s because their 5 diesel engines for 9 car sets are insufficient. They have space for 1-2 extra diesel engines though. Stadler Flirts designed to match Meridian timings is possible but I doubt it.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

To add the class 222 Meridian only have 0.8m/s acceleration figures according to Eversholts website about the train

https://eversholtrail.co.uk/fleet/class-222/

So most new builds could manage that, and maintain/slash the current timings

 

[hwl]

To add the class 222 Meridian only have 0.8m/s acceleration figures according to Eversholts website about the train

https://eversholtrail.co.uk/fleet/class-222/

So most new builds could manage that, and maintain/slash the current timings

Comparing apples and Oranges. Need to looked at units geared for 125mph or take account of that. Flirts when regeared for 125mph operation won't have the acceleration you listed.

 

[hwl]

The franchise spec required new intercity trains from 2023 so I doubt time was a critical factor. Hitachi really need the work for Newton Aycliffe and probably offered a lower price, with earlier delivery a bonus. It would be a good order to fill much of the time between the end of their current orders and HS2 first fleet (if their joint bid with Bombardier succeeds).



The new units have to match Meridian timings which is why Hitachi could not have submitted 800s or 802s because their 5 diesel engines for 9 car sets are insufficient. They have space for 1-2 extra diesel engines though. Stadler Flirts designed to match Meridian timings is possible but I doubt it.

2023 to keep supply options open rather than just another Hitachi order.

 

[RealTrains07]

According to the DfT press release, there will be a complete replacement of the existing HST/Meridian fleet, and Abellio "will trial hydrogen fuel cell trains on the Midland Main Line"; NO mention of bi-modes.

In the same sentance, it states that Abellio will run "zero-carbon pilots at six stations along the route"; any ideas? Is this also a reference to traction and rolling stock?

Waste of time replacing the meridian fleet, they are arguably far younger compared to their HST counterparts.