New trains for East Midlands Franchise

[DPWH]

Can't class 222s be made to work with 220s and 221s?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Can't class 222s be made to work with 220s and 221s?

They weren't designed to, and they can't. Of course anything is technically speaking possible, but it's a question of whether the 'juice is worth the squeeze' so to speak. As Abellio have demonstrated with several of their other franchises (e.g. WMT, GA), the cost of buying new trains is so cheap by historic standards (or perhaps existing trains are so expensive) that having to do substantial amounts of work on a particular type of train often won't be worth the money. That's quite ignoring the fact that new trains will have cleaner emissions (a boon for the likes of St Pancras), more seats, and be better for passengers (well, in theory!).

In general, for many situations it is now the case that new trains are better than old trains - the main disadvantages are that they inevitably have a longer lead time (though existing trains still have a fair lead time, until they are released by their existing operators and staff are trained on them), and that they can be more unreliable to begin with. But over the long term there are currently considerable benefits to buying new trains. No doubt this is an influencing factor in why we have seen so many recent franchise awards where new trains have been promised, far more than was the case even 5 or 10 years ago (e.g. see CrossCountry).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't see that there is any need to make them compatible. Just permanently pair them up with compatible units (i.e. 220/221 together and 222 together) into 9-car formations (a 4 and a 5) and maybe the odd 10 and standalone 7.

 

[Roast Veg]

Agreed, assuming XC did take them and the diagrams work out there'd be no need to interwork 222s with the other stock. Could we also see earlier and later services on XC at its most extreme ends with an uplift in units?

 

[The Ham]

I don't see that there is any need to make them compatible. Just permanently pair them up with compatible units (i.e. 220/221 together and 222 together) into 9-car formations (a 4 and a 5) and maybe the odd 10 and standalone 7.

Without loosing any end coaches you could have:
1*10 coach (2*5 coach units)
7*8 coach (2*4 coach units)
11 * 7 coach (1*7 coach units)

That would be enough to allow all the 220's to be run as pairs permanently, and given that there's already a few services which runs as pairs on XC, possibly a good number of the 221's as well.

Even if you lost the HST's that's still a significant increase in capacity for most services.

Alternatively, you could scrap a load of end coaches and have 11 * 10 coach trains, which would allow the removal of the HST's and 6 extra 10 coach trains to allow extra capacity (not only on the 6 services, but also by freeing up 6-12 units which could be used to strengthen other services).

 

[Wtloild]

A split in the Norwich - Liverpool service is a real backwards step.

Although a lot on here try and claim everyone just goes via London whenever it's discussed as a semi regular user of the service I see the opposite. Really disappointing.

I travelled Manchester to Norwich quite regularly last year and seemed to be just about the only passenger in my carriage travelling that far.
Lots of changes of passengers at Sheffield, Nottingham & Peterborough.

 

[Roast Veg]

Without loosing any end coaches you could have:
1*10 coach (2*5 coach units)
7*8 coach (2*4 coach units)
11 * 7 coach (1*7 coach units)

That would be enough to allow all the 220's to be run as pairs permanently, and given that there's already a few services which runs as pairs on XC, possibly a good number of the 221's as well.

Even if you lost the HST's that's still a significant increase in capacity for most services.

Alternatively, you could scrap a load of end coaches and have 11 * 10 coach trains, which would allow the removal of the HST's and 6 extra 10 coach trains to allow extra capacity (not only on the 6 services, but also by freeing up 6-12 units which could be used to strengthen other services).

This doesn't seem necessary to me, either keep them as they are or if you need uniformality form them back into 4 and 9 car units.

 

[grumpyoldman01]

Alternatively, you could scrap a load of end coaches and have 11 * 10 coach trains, which would allow the removal of the HST's and 6 extra 10 coach trains to allow extra capacity (not only on the 6 services, but also by freeing up 6-12 units which could be used to strengthen other services).

Class 222s have steel shells; would be costly, but could the driving ends be rebuilt as intermediate ones to change the mix between end and intermediate vehicles?

 

[supervc-10]

MML and EMT have messed around with the configurations a bit already, I think reforming them during a mild refurbishment to Cross-Country's specs (seat colours, a repaint/revinyl) would be pretty straightforward, no?

 

[The Ham]

Class 222s have steel shells; would be costly, but could the driving ends be rebuilt as intermediate ones to change the mix between end and intermediate vehicles?

You'd be into the realms of it being cheaper to buy new units.

 

[nat67]

I think Abellio are being a bit dumb here. Use the 222's on Liverpool-Norwich services just to help with capacity.

And as some have said about XC having them, that's ok but talking of getting rid of the HST's is diabolical as they are spending money on refurbishing them. Just No guys.

 

[cactustwirly]

I think Abellio are being a bit dumb here. Use the 222's on Liverpool-Norwich services just to help with capacity.

And as some have said about XC having them, that's ok but talking of getting rid of the HST's is diabolical as they are spending money on refurbishing them. Just No guys.

Liverpool to Norwich is being split at Nottingham!
The HSTs are over 40 years old and falling apart, and need to go!

 

[nat67]

Liverpool to Norwich is being split at Nottingham!
The HSTs are over 40 years old and falling apart, and need to go!

XC's won't be Cactus. So far touch wood none have caught fire unlike most other TOC's.

 

[Chester1]

Bi modes for MML to replace Meridians follows the BR era tradition of cascading intercity stock after a reasonable period of time to secondary lines. Yes the Meridians are less than half way through their lives but there is plenty of other work for them. The new intercity fleet should be designed for the demand between 2022 and 2033. If they are not suitable for all services afterwards they can be cascaded. There is a clear benefit to a uniform fleet that provides maximum capacity from the infrastructure constraints and makes use of wires to Market Harborough. A uniform intercity fleet will allow much more flexibility through interworking any of the 4 bi mode services.

 

[ABB125]

I've been thinking about the regional fleet, and have had a few ideas based on what rolling stock might will be available in the future (but I haven't looked at the dates of release for this new(er) stock). My ideas are in this picture.
Bear in mind that the transfer away of LIV-NOT will release some diagrams. It's about 2.5 hours from Liverpool to Nottingham, so I suspect there are 6 diagrams to be released. As they run as 2x158, 12 class 158s would be released. However, with the eastern end of the route (from Norwich) being extended to Derby, that's an extra diagram. Therefore I calculate that 11 class 158s could be released.
To make the speculation easier, I have swapped the 6 WMR class 170/6s with the 6 XC class 170/5s, giving XC a 50% increase in capacity (well, on these 6 units at least!) and a uniform 23x170/5 fleet available for transfer to other operators from WMR.

What does the forum think?

 

[Burgerstahl]

Rail Minister Andrew Jones said this in Parliament :

“We will see an entirely new fleet of trains—a full replacement fleet—come into service. Inter-city services will receive new bi-mode trains, and regional services will receive new diesel trains. The express fleet, which is the Corby-Bedford-London service, will receive new electric trains that offer significantly enhanced environmental improvements.”

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commo...F-914B-96F43098DC84/EastMidlandsRailFranchise

TPE and Northern still haven’t introduced their various new trains announced in 2016.
Will either of those operators want or be able to take over another route ?

 

[43096]

Rail Minister Andrew Jones said this in Parliament :

“We will see an entirely new fleet of trains—a full replacement fleet—come into service. Inter-city services will receive new bi-mode trains, and regional services will receive new diesel trains. The express fleet, which is the Corby-Bedford-London service, will receive new electric trains that offer significantly enhanced environmental improvements.”

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commo...F-914B-96F43098DC84/EastMidlandsRailFranchise

TPE and Northern still haven’t introduced their various new trains announced in 2016.
Will either of those operators want or be able to take over another route ?

Presumably his definition of 'new' for the regional fleet is "new to the region" not "new" as in brand new out of the factory.

 

[MML]

On a railway where track capacity is at a premium, there is nothing worse than running lots of short formed trains with only 4 or 5 carriages. Class 45 expresses used to pull at least 8 coaches, yet nowadays many of the Meridians are only 4 or 5-car units with lots of people standing during the peak.

I would hope the Corby express EMU's will be 12-car with suitable seating and luggage capacity for an inter-city route.
They have to offer greater comfort than the competing Thameslink 700's.
With bi-mode Express stock having a minimum of 8 coaches or a standardised 6-coach set for off-peak services, allowing doubling up to 12-car during peak hours.

 

[LowLevel]

It clearly says in both the DfT and Abellio press releases refurbished modern trains for regional services. I suspect the minister is being a politician in that 'new' means whatever you want it to mean. I'd take those documents over a single comment from a minister that can be read multiple ways. It does imply the existing fleet may be heading for the bin though.

 

[The Ham]

It clearly says in both the DfT and Abellio press releases refurbished modern trains for regional services. I suspect the minister is being a politician in that 'new' means whatever you want it to mean. I'd take those documents over a single comment from a minister that can be read multiple ways. It does imply the existing fleet may be heading for the bin though.

It's not overly surprising that the existing fleet (excluding the 222's) would be scrapped due to their age (circa 30 years old now and would be quite a bit older than that at the end of the franchise).

Although I do wonder if there's scope for another franchise to use some as a stop gap until their franchise is relet if they would otherwise be surplus to requirements (Northern and SWR would appear to be the obvious candidates).

 

[NoMorePacers]

It's not overly surprising that the existing fleet (excluding the 222's) would be scrapped due to their age (circa 30 years old now and would be quite a bit older than that at the end of the franchise).

Although I do wonder if there's scope for another franchise to use some as a stop gap until their franchise is relet if they would otherwise be surplus to requirements (Northern and SWR would appear to be the obvious candidates).

The 158s won't be scrapped. I can say that at least.

 

[LowLevel]

The 158s won't be scrapped. I can say that at least.

I'm inclined to agree. I'm still 50/50 on whether they'll be leaving at all. I'm sure it'll come out in the next few months.

 

[NoMorePacers]

I'm inclined to agree. I'm still 50/50 on whether they'll be leaving at all. I'm sure it'll come out in the next few months.

Abellio will probably swap them with the TfW units so they can say they swapped the entire fleet.

 

[anamyd]

I've been thinking about the regional fleet, and have had a few ideas based on what rolling stock might will be available in the future (but I haven't looked at the dates of release for this new(er) stock). My ideas are in this picture.
Bear in mind that the transfer away of LIV-NOT will release some diagrams. It's about 2.5 hours from Liverpool to Nottingham, so I suspect there are 6 diagrams to be released. As they run as 2x158, 12 class 158s would be released. However, with the eastern end of the route (from Norwich) being extended to Derby, that's an extra diagram. Therefore I calculate that 11 class 158s could be released.
To make the speculation easier, I have swapped the 6 WMR class 170/6s with the 6 XC class 170/5s, giving XC a 50% increase in capacity (well, on these 6 units at least!) and a uniform 23x170/5 fleet available for transfer to other operators from WMR.
View attachment 61502
What does the forum think?

While the West Midlands Railway 170s become available next year (2020), Transport for Wales Rail Services will operate the last of the 175s until sometime in 2022 and the first ones will go off lease in late 2021 - the next operator of them is best off being the person controlling the crusher; they're just not the reliable solid trains that 170s are. There's a reason the 175s are going first and the 158s are being withdrawn slightly later. Out of your four boxes, I say the one on the top left with the 158s and 170s is the best option

 

[ashworth]

Presumably his definition of 'new' for the regional fleet is "new to the region" not "new" as in brand new out of the factory.

Does that therefore rule out the chance of the East Midlands getting any 170’s? They are neither ‘new’ or ‘new to the region’.
The minister didn’t mention that we could be getting our old trains back that we lost to the West Midlands and Cross Country when Central Trains finished and East Midlands Trains began. What a joke if the ‘new’ trains turn out to be a return of the ‘old’ trains.

 

[Goldfish62]

I'm inclined to agree. I'm still 50/50 on whether they'll be leaving at all. I'm sure it'll come out in the next few months.

It would seem mad to scrap them while GWR and Northern still have 150s and 156s.

 

[Chester1]

It would seem mad to scrap them while GWR and Northern still have 150s and 156s.

They won't be scrapped and neither will the 156s. Northern have stated they want to start getting rid of Sprinters before the end of the franchise. They cannot get rid of all of them but could get rid of most 150s.

Porterbook own 9 of 15 EMT 156s, 9 of 9 GA 156s and 11 of 26 EMT 158s. They own 11 Northern 150s.

Angel Trains own 6 of 15 EMT 156s, 15 of 26 EMT 158s and all 24 TfW 158s. They own all 19 GWR 150s and most Northern 150s.

Both Roscos have an incentive to swap units because there is very little chance of future franchise operators of Northern and GWR having long leases of 150s, they will be at the top of the list to get rid of. They might as well place units which could stay long term.

My bet for EMR regional fleet is 170s and 175s. That meets the description provided, abet with irony.

 

[Jozhua]

They won't be scrapped and neither will the 156s. Northern have stated they want to start getting rid of Sprinters before the end of the franchise. They cannot get rid of all of them but could get rid of most 150s.

The priority is probably making sure that there is enough capacity for today's needs and 5 years or so in the future, then making sure it's nice.

With the back of the 153's, Pacers and even the HSTs ;( the UK railways will be a cleaner and more modern place to be!

My bet is EMT 156's probably move to northern, expand the fleet and allow them to rid themselves of a few 150's...Then 195's and/or 230's for EMT

 

[DanDaDriver]

Class 45 expresses used to pull at least 8 coaches, yet nowadays many of the Meridians are only 4 or 5-car units with lots of people standing during the peak.

Yes, but at what frequency?

 

[hooverboy]

Yes, but at what frequency?

if i remember correctly :
1tph london-nottingham
1tph london-sheffield.

ketterting to corby in those days was a dmu