East Midlands franchise won by Abellio

[tbtc]

The oldest 170s are now 20 years old, the 220, 221 and 180s are fast approaching that mark and the 222s are 15 now. I wouldn't call any of those 'new'. The 195s are only running Nottingham to Dronfield in the EM region, and even if you consider the new 800/801s on the ECML, it's hardly revolutionary is it? I don't actually think there's a problem with any of these trains (well, 180s excepted!), really it's the 153/6 that really needs replacing, but alas that doesn't look likely till the 2030s .

I was responding to the claim that "compared to most operators services are only slightly improved since the days of British Rail and currently all of the trains except the Class 222 were built in the days of British Rail".

Grass is always greener and all that but that was the British Rail who only ran two trains per hour from Leicester to London... you could argue that under Stagecoach we've seen the randomly timetabled Matlock branch increased to clockface hourly and extended to Nottingham... we've seen a doubling of services from London/Leicester to Sheffield... we've seen the Liverpool service doubled up to four coach 158s (compared to what they inherited)... there have been improvements.

...also, if taking the East Midlands overall, we've seen a doubling in frequency from Nottingham to Chesterfield/ Sheffield (with new links to Meadowhall and daytime services to Leeds), a doubling of services from Retford/ Worksop to Sheffield coming soon etc etc.

Maybe it's not revolutionary, but what's the benchmark?

Northern, who are keeping the 150s for the foreseeable future (a train that I've not seen in the East Midlands in recent times - similarly no Pacers to worry about south of Dore junction) as well as 155s and lots of 156s.

The new Wales & Borders franchise who are getting 230s and converting 319s for future use?

ScotRail, who are are keeping 156s and 158s (as well as gaining 1970s HSTs).

If EMT and the East Midlands haven't seen a "revolutionary" set of improvements then I'm not sure what they are being assessed against, other than Greater Anglia who are ordering a brand new fleet (that isn't delivered yet) - which is the same as the new EMR franchise is apparently promising (AIUI).

If Lincolnshire's being included in the EM region, the Leeds - Lincoln Northern service is supposedly being ran by 195s too when they're in service

Welcome to the Forum!

195s on that route will be a huge improvement from the long running 142s and single 153s that ran Sheffield - Lincoln (before it was extended onto the Leeds service, with 158s) - one of the few areas of the country that will see Pacers replaced by brand new trains.

 

[K13R0N]

Oh true forgot about that, I guess that adds three or four more stations. Still hardly revolutionary!

PS: Welcome to the forum

I don't think it adds that many. The service has some sort of change planned for May, can't remember the exact details but Gainsborough Central will be getting an hourly service again with a Lincoln - Sheffield service, which if I'm not wrong means Saxilby and Gainsborough Lea Road lose their service with the Northern Connect service going direct to Sheffield via Retford, which would mean their only services would be the future hourly service between Peterborough and Doncaster via Lincoln.

I'll be intrigued to see what comes of the new Nottingham - Grimsby service, hopefully 2 carriages as a minimum as the Newark - Grimsby service 153s get busy from Lincoln onwards, albeit being roughly every 2 hours. Wonder if a potential timetable will be designed to allow connections from the Barton Line at Haborough or Grimsby Town.

And thanks!

Isn't rhere an issue over the number of services between Nottingham and Derby and resultant congestion?

I would say there is a high chance of some of these services merging maybe Crewe to Nottingham with Nottingham to Norwich, Skegness or Grimsby as there won't be enough capacity between Nottingham and Trent and between Derby and Trent due to the Intercity services joining the east / west route at Trent Jns. What it could also preclude is future services from HS2 at Toton as either direct services from London or connecting classic services operating via Toton.

I think the extension of the Grimsby service to Crewe would present reliability issues with late running trains and Newark Flat Crossing

 

[vlad]

...presuming that the Crewe and Matlock don't join/split at Derby!

That'll be two 153s that split at Derby then?

 

[DownUmmy]

Didn't know a new link from Lincoln to Gainsborough Central avoiding Saxilby & Gainsborough Lea Road had been built!

 

[DanTrain]

I was responding to the claim that "compared to most operators services are only slightly improved since the days of British Rail and currently all of the trains except the Class 222 were built in the days of British Rail".

Grass is always greener and all that but that was the British Rail who only ran two trains per hour from Leicester to London... you could argue that under Stagecoach we've seen the randomly timetabled Matlock branch increased to clockface hourly and extended to Nottingham... we've seen a doubling of services from London/Leicester to Sheffield... we've seen the Liverpool service doubled up to four coach 158s (compared to what they inherited)... there have been improvements.

...also, if taking the East Midlands overall, we've seen a doubling in frequency from Nottingham to Chesterfield/ Sheffield (with new links to Meadowhall and daytime services to Leeds), a doubling of services from Retford/ Worksop to Sheffield coming soon etc etc.

Maybe it's not revolutionary, but what's the benchmark?

Northern, who are keeping the 150s for the foreseeable future (a train that I've not seen in the East Midlands in recent times - similarly no Pacers to worry about south of Dore junction) as well as 155s and lots of 156s.

The new Wales & Borders franchise who are getting 230s and converting 319s for future use?

ScotRail, who are are keeping 156s and 158s (as well as gaining 1970s HSTs).

If EMT and the East Midlands haven't seen a "revolutionary" set of improvements then I'm not sure what they are being assessed against, other than Greater Anglia who are ordering a brand new fleet (that isn't delivered yet) - which is the same as the new EMR franchise is apparently promising (AIUI).

Appreciated, and personally I think EMT have done a decent job with what they have...and you are of course right that MML/EML have significantly rejouvenated the MML since BR days...it's now a proper mainline rather than an ugly duckling! In fairness a refubishment of the 156 and 158 fleet would probably do, along with additions from GA, although of course they're hardly wonderful!

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I don't think it adds that many. The service has some sort of change planned for May, can't remember the exact details but Gainsborough Central will be getting an hourly service again with a Lincoln - Sheffield service, which if I'm not wrong means Saxilby and Gainsborough Lea Road lose their service with the Northern Connect service going direct to Sheffield via Retford, which would mean their only services would be the future hourly service between Peterborough and Doncaster via Lincoln.

I'll be intrigued to see what comes of the new Nottingham - Grimsby service, hopefully 2 carriages as a minimum as the Newark - Grimsby service 153s get busy from Lincoln onwards, albeit being roughly every 2 hours. Wonder if a potential timetable will be designed to allow connections from the Barton Line at Haborough or Grimsby Town.

And thanks!



I think the extension of the Grimsby service to Crewe would present reliability issues with late running trains and Newark Flat Crossing

As far as I was aware the plan is to remove the stops between Retford and Sheffield with Worksop being retained (as well as Retford, Gainsborough Lea Road and saxilby being retained). I also hope for two carriages on the Nottingham and Grimsby Town and the introduction of services to Nottingham and hourly services to Lincoln. It is long been overdue. Hopefully they do time them with Barton Line Services although I do not know.

 

[Class 170101]

Nope
The Lincoln Central services have been sped up between Worksop and Sheffield by omitting those intermediate stations - those stations passed onto what looks like a new Gainsborough Central to Sheffield service.

Saxilby and Gainsborough Lea Road still have their services to Sheffield and will probably get hourly services to Doncaster vie EMT.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Nope
The Lincoln Central services have been sped up between Worksop and Sheffield by omitting those intermediate stations - those stations passed onto what looks like a new Gainsborough Central to Sheffield service.

Saxilby and Gainsborough Lea Road still have their services to Sheffield and will probably get hourly services to Doncaster vie EMT.

That is the plan!

 

[Class 170101]

That is the plan!

I am confused unless I read your previous post incorrectly I understand you think the Lincoln service is diverted to Gainsborough Central with no trains at Lea Road and Saxilby.

I'm saying there are two services, first Gainsborough Central to Sheffield all stations and secondly a service between Lincoln to Sheffield that remains but now non-stop between Worksop and Sheffield.

You cannot serve Gainsborough Lea Road and Gainsborough Central with the same train as the two stations are on different routes.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I am confused unless I read your previous post incorrectly I understand you think the Lincoln service is diverted to Gainsborough Central with no trains at Lea Road and Saxilby.

I'm saying there are two services, first Gainsborough Central to Sheffield all stations and secondly a service between Lincoln to Sheffield that remains but now non-stop between Worksop and Sheffield.

You cannot serve Gainsborough Lea Road and Gainsborough Central with the same train as the two stations are on different routes.

I said this:

As far as I was aware the plan is to remove the stops between Retford and Sheffield with Worksop being retained (as well as Retford, Gainsborough Lea Road and saxilby being replaced by a Gainsborough Central service). I also hope for two carriages on the Nottingham and Grimsby Town and the introduction of services to Nottingham and hourly services to Lincoln. It is long been overdue. Hopefully they do time them with Barton Line Services although I do not know.

In other words I was saying the stops between Worksop and Sheffield would be removed and replaced by the Gainsborough Central to Sheffield. Meaning that Lincoln services will run non-stop between Sheffield and Worksop. Lea Road and Saxilby will remain served by Lincoln to Leeds Services (Northern Connect).

I made a mistake in my post I was meant to say they would be retained (Retford, Lea Road and Saxilby)

 

[Killingworth]

Not that I've ever used Darnall station (I did once visit to see where it is), but they currently have an hourly service to Lincoln and Leeds. They'll still have an hourly service for Sheffield, but most trains are to go to Gainsborough, probably having come from Hull, except at commuting times when the Lincoln - Leeds services will also stop, see; http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...27/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=pax-calls&order=wtt

On the one day I visited the only two car parking spaces were both empty. It's rather a sad and forlorn station, apparently unloved below the outer Sheffield ring road.

 

[Helvellyn]

All those bemoaning the lack of historic investment in the East Midlands franchise should remember that a certain Tony Blair was still Prime Minister when the bidding was under way for this franchise. It should have ended in 2015 but two Direct Awards deliver small improvements and little chance for anything radical with rolling stock.

Electrification was meant to have allowed the HST fleet replacement but then 6ou involve DfT...

 

[grumpyoldman01]

That'll be two 153s that split at Derby then?

Don't say that too loudly - someone from the DfT might be reading this forum, think it's a good idea, and encourage Abellio to adopt it!

 

[ashworth]

I'm saying there are two services, first Gainsborough Central to Sheffield all stations and secondly a service between Lincoln to Sheffield that remains but now non-stop between Worksop and Sheffield.

This improvement in services between Retford/Worksop and Sheffield, is long awaited, and is great news for passengers in the Mansfield area on the EMT Robin Hood Line. Mansfield to Sheffield will now be achievable in approximately 1hr 15mins with good connections at Worksop to/from the new Sheffield to Gainsborough Central stopping service. Much better than the current long wait at Worksop and journey times of almost 2 hours. If only the connection could have been into the faster Lincoln to Leeds service, Mansfield to Sheffield could have been done in little more than 1 hour and other destinations towards and via Leeds would be quicker too.

The journey planners are now showing the quickest journey times to Sheffield now being via Worksop instead of Nottingham. Also journeys to other destinations in the north including Manchester are coming up as being quicker via Worksop than via Nottingham. Hopefully more people from the Mansfield area will be encouraged to use this route increasing passenger numbers on the northern section of the Robin Hood Line. I see that Abellio are intending to try a Sunday service from Nottingham to Worksop once more.

Fares via Worksop to Sheffield are cheaper than via Nottingham. However, fares to destinations beyond Sheffield are usually the same by both routes. It shouldn’t cost more to travel from Mansfield to destinations in the north than it does from Nottingham. Passengers can, however, often save large amounts by splitting at Sheffield or Shirebrook.

 

[Qwerty133]

All those bemoaning the lack of historic investment in the East Midlands franchise should remember that a certain Tony Blair was still Prime Minister when the bidding was under way for this franchise. It should have ended in 2015 but two Direct Awards deliver small improvements and little chance for anything radical with rolling stock.

Electrification was meant to have allowed the HST fleet replacement but then 6ou involve DfT...

But it's not monetary investment that is required in a lot of cases. Things as simple as overhauling station and on train staffing rosters at a number of stations so that the levels of staffing were more regularly able to meet customer demand while not increasing the overall staffing budget, by reducing staffing at times when it is currently excessive and reducing large huddles of staff spending their entire shift talking in one spot (for example one major mainline station currently has more ticket office clerks scheduled to work afternoons than there are windows in the ticket office and often has four or five barrier staff at one set while the other two sets are unmanned and there are turns in the roster for first class hosts at times at which there is no first class service provided), would be entirely possible with only a little thought and could bring major improvements to the customer experience. EMT are also seriously lacking in the installation of TVMs compared to many other TOCs and this is the type of investment that could very well be included in direct awards.

 

[londonmidland]

180s. Watch this space.

 

[yorksrob]

180s. Watch this space.

And wait for the turd to hit the fan.

 

[hooverboy]

180s. Watch this space.

only if abellio get paid to use them,not the other way around.

 

[Helvellyn]

EMT are also seriously lacking in the installation of TVMs compared to many other TOCs and this is the type of investment that could very well be included in direct awards.

Which they did with the 2015 Direct Award didn't they? A load of new TVMs at St Pancras, Ivanhoe line and Robin Hood line stations?

The Direct Award this year is so short you aren't going to get much done.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Personally I think TVMs have become somewhat superfluous now that we have electronic ticketing solutions available, I'd say more than half of the tickets I see these days are on mobile phones.

 

[Qwerty133]

Which they did with the 2015 Direct Award didn't they? A load of new TVMs at St Pancras, Ivanhoe line and Robin Hood line stations?

The Direct Award this year is so short you aren't going to get much done.

I'm afraid that I'll have to disagree that the requirements in 2015 were even close to what was required. It is absolutely ridiculous that Narborough and Hinckley have no ticketing facilities for much of the day and often are left unstaffed during scheduled opening hours, especially considering many of the guards on the route are finishing when the train arrives at Leicester and are therefore uninterested in selling tickets on that part of the journey. This combined with uninterested and ill-equipped barrier staff at Leicester leads to widespread ticketless travel from those stations but I suppose as XC would get the majority of the revenue and I suspect many individuals in management at EMT suspect they would benefit from keeping the usage figures for the local XC journeys artificially low it is a purposeful decision to neglect these stations.

 

[43074]

This combined with uninterested and ill-equipped barrier staff at Leicester leads to widespread ticketless travel from those stations but I suppose as XC would get the majority of the revenue and I suspect many individuals in management at EMT suspect they would benefit from keeping the usage figures for the local XC journeys artificially low it is a purposeful decision to neglect these stations.

I think you're reading far too much into that - passenger numbers probably are lower than they actually are from those stations, I agree, but that's probably more to do with them being 10/15 mins from Leicester and there not being enough time for conductors to sell all passengers tickets rather than it being out of "a purposeful decision to neglect" those stations. In who's interest is it to do that?

 

[Wolfie]

A has been said elsewhere, the evidence is a Daily Telegraph report that is behind a pay wall. You can see the headline here; https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...s-legal-attack-chris-grayling-decision-block/

then behind pay wall.

It's what any company in Stagecoach's position would do. The DfT must have expected it and should have prepared to deal with it. Whether they have or not we'll have to wait and see, but I wouldn't ink in the changeover date just yet.

DfT's in-house legal team will have offered legal advice to Ministers. The political sensitivity of this decision means that Grayling will inevitably have been involved. Those Ministers then make a call which may or may not take account of the legal advice.
There was a case involving MOD reported in the media a couple of years ago. A Court found against MOD. Papers came out in the case saying that MOD's lawyers had warned a policy was almost certainly illegal but Ministers chose to push ahead anyway..

Edited to add: Having belatedly seen Ainsworth's red posts l will say no more on this here.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally I think TVMs have become somewhat superfluous now that we have electronic ticketing solutions available, I'd say more than half of the tickets I see these days are on mobile phones.

I've noticed that, but I do still use TVMs primarily because I can produce a ticket from one much quicker than I can produce a ticket on a mobile because I don't need to prat about with a journey planner. The battery also can't run out.

That said, room in the market for someone to create an app for selling e-tickets just based on what you specify rather than a planner?

 

[bunnahabhain]

I've noticed that, but I do still use TVMs primarily because I can produce a ticket from one much quicker than I can produce a ticket on a mobile because I don't need to prat about with a journey planner. The battery also can't run out.

That said, room in the market for someone to create an app for selling e-tickets just based on what you specify rather than a planner?

There's always the Mk1 method.

"Good morning tickets please"
"Good morning, may I have a cheap day return to Nottingham please"
"Certainly that's £##. ## please"

 

[Robertj21a]

There's always the Mk1 method.

"Good morning tickets please"
"Good morning, may I have a cheap day return to Nottingham please"
"Certainly that's £##. ## please"

Quite difficult if there's no staff.

 

[tbtc]

There's always the Mk1 method.

"Good morning tickets please"
"Good morning, may I have a cheap day return to Nottingham please"
"Certainly that's £##. ## please"

Suddenly I feel the need to buy a packet of Tunes!

(apologies to anyone young enough not to remember the old advert that I'm referring to!)

 

[Qwerty133]

I think you're reading far too much into that - passenger numbers probably are lower than they actually are from those stations, I agree, but that's probably more to do with them being 10/15 mins from Leicester and there not being enough time for conductors to sell all passengers tickets rather than it being out of "a purposeful decision to neglect" those stations. In who's interest is it to do that?

Unfortunately, there was a common belief that inaccurate passenger figures presented by Central Trains to the government towards the end of their franchise led to the local side of EMT receiving less stock than it probably should. If EMT management believes that stock is limited and the allocation of it can be manipulated by artificially changing the proportion of passengers on their own services in comparison to that of other TOCS it is completely in EMTs interest to do so.
It is pretty hard to argue that significant ticketless travel through a station that has no exits that don't require passing through a usually closed ticket barrier is not being condoned by at least the barrier staff if not TOC management and it is equally hard to argue that EMT management are not aware that the barrier staff at Leicester do nothing about passengers arriving without tickets considering the length of time that the situation has been ongoing. Furthermore, it is difficult to see how anything other than a purposeful decision to treat these stations as a low priority has led to the situation in which their ticket offices have been left unstaffed during advertised opening hours on days where the ticket office at Leicester has had extended periods of more staff than ticket issuing positions.

 

[43074]

If EMT management believes that stock is limited and the allocation of it can be manipulated by artificially changing the proportion of passengers on their own services in comparison to that of other TOCS it is completely in EMTs interest to do so.

EMT didn't have a say in the stock they were handed when their franchise started though, that was a DfT decision based on out of date data from Central Trains, which is the same reason Liverpool to Norwich had a crowding issue for years at the start at the franchise. Part of the issue I dare say is a consequence of the stations being operated by EMT but served only by XC, but EMT will get a commission on tickets sold by their staff and TVMs. If XC are concerned about revenue protection from those stations, it's within their right to have more RPIs on their trains, it has very little to do with EMT except your personal agenda against them.

 

[westcoaster]

Am I correct in thinking that abellio won by default.

There were 4 contenders
1 pulled out. (First joint bid)
2 were disqualified ( stagecoach and arriva)
And abellio won.

Both disqualified bids were around the same issue, changing the terms of the bids.
Arriva news link https://www.railjournal.com/financial/dft-confirms-arriva-disqualification/