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Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

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Brissle Girl

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Presumably the approach to the crossover and bay platform is restricted in speed too (approach controlled maybe?) which will reduce even further any ability to run at higher speeds between the stations?
 
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Tetchytyke

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I think it's the layout at Bletchley, not the speed, that's the issue. IIRC you can't get out of the bay onto the northbound WCML, so the train would have to reverse in platform 3 or 4, blocking it for other trains.
 

Bletchleyite

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I think it's the layout at Bletchley, not the speed, that's the issue. IIRC you can't get out of the bay onto the northbound WCML, so the train would have to reverse in platform 3 or 4, blocking it for other trains.

The bay? You mean P5? You can (the WCML there is 6-tracked, which people often don't realise - the Up Bletchley and Down Bletchley (now reversible lines R1/2) are rarely used and look like part of the carriage sidings, but are not) - it's R2 or the old Up Bletchley that would be used.

https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/r1_1#T_BLTCHLY shows them.

The connection between P5 and the Up/Down Slows was indeed removed when the platform was extended.

We tried to work out a timetable on here a while back, and it can't be done in compliance with the scheduling rules, it's about 5 minutes over (which means an additional unit and crew would effectively be used for 5 minutes in the hour).

I can now only see it happening in connection with something drastic (which is definitely crayonista) like reopening of the Newport Pagnell branch.
 
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Railperf

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Whatever train is used for the route from Bedford has to be not-electric. Hence, at best, something like a 158/9 (90mph max) and that is the comparison vs. 230 needed.

Some "back of a fag packet" quick calculations* suggest the difference in elapsed time would be of the order of 12 seconds. Such a differential could equally easily arise in - for example - the length of time it takes one crew vs. another, or for one train length vs. another, in changing ends, provision of wheelchair access, signalling delays and so on. Even supposing relaxed timing for the reversal accounts for all of that, it still leaves a maximum differential of, say, 12 seconds which is, I'd say, negligible.

==============
* Assume 0-60 and 60-0 are about equal for 158/9 and for 230, and that in total these account for two of the three miles, give or take, based on that 98 second 0-60 time quoted elsewhere.
That leaves 1 mile in which the 158/9 continues to accelerate (let's say up to to 90) and then slows (earlier) whilst the 230 proceeds at 60 throughout. Approximate average speed for the 158/9 up to 90 and back is say 75mph vs 60 for the 230. 1 mile at 75 takes 12 seconds longer than 1 mile at 60.
On my return run last Friday, the 230 was achieving 0-30mph in around 30 seconds, but between 30 and 40mph the acceleration curve flattens and we were struggling to achieve a maximum of 56mph between the longest stops.
 

tnxrail

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230005 being swapped with 230004, from what heard on board and seen at station.
 

apk55

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The speed against tractive effort curves are different for a class 230 against a 158. In particular at low speed the class 230 has much higher tractive effort (all axles driven by high tractive effort motors), so acceleration will be very high. This means it could clear a station platform very much quicker than a class 158. However a class 158 has better acceleration at high speeds whereas a class 230 would stop accelerating much above 50mph.
 

Railperf

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I haven't measured a 158. Compared to a 153, the 230 is about 7 seconds faster from rest to a distance of 1.3 miles! Compared to a 170, the 230 would gain a couple of seconds early on, but the 170 catches up and both have an equal timing to the 1.3 mile mark, but at higher speeds the 170 would clearly start to pull away! A 170 needs 2.2 miles to reach 70mph, 3.3 miles to reach 80mph and 4.8 miles to reach 90mph.
I have never recorded a 158, so have no data to compare it with, but i cannot imagine it being better than a 170?
Anyway, the point being, you would be having to skip many stations to start running at higher speeds of 80 to 90mph.
One of things i noted was the very slow single track section between Bedford and Bedford St Johns - which is also subject to some quite tight curvature which restrict speeds.
Your end to end times are restricted by the time it takes any train to join the single track section and terminate at Bedford. Turnaround the driver, and depart Bedford to rejoin the double track section after Bedford St Johns. It looks like a similar issue occurs at the Bletchley end - speed restrictions - single track etc.
 

Aictos

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Any idea what the Class 230s are booked to work Saturdays yet?
 

Luke McDonnell

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Like the look of those 230s do you think they could be of use on the new Halton Curve service Liverpool-Chester via Runcorn or do you think the 60mph top speed would not make that workable between Liverpool and Runcorn or even Frodsham and Chester? - would that conflict with Virgin and WMT movements? Do you also think they could get use of some lightly used Northern services like Ormskirk-Preston? Kirkby-Wigan? Or the services into Blackpool South? Any other ideas for suitable Northern routes - it could free up Sprinters for elsewhere obviously Pacers are going.

Luke
 

sw1ller

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Like the look of those 230s do you think they could be of use on the new Halton Curve service Liverpool-Chester via Runcorn or do you think the 60mph top speed would not make that workable between Liverpool and Runcorn or even Frodsham and Chester? - would that conflict with Virgin and WMT movements? Do you also think they could get use of some lightly used Northern services like Ormskirk-Preston? Kirkby-Wigan? Or the services into Blackpool South? Any other ideas for suitable Northern routes - it could free up Sprinters for elsewhere obviously Pacers are going.

Luke

It would only free up a single 153, but I think they’d be perfect for the Crewe - Shrewsbury shuttle. There’s talk of Shrewsbury drivers signing Wrexham Bidston anyway, so the shuttle can be done by Chester and Shrewsbury crews and no extra training needed. I think they’d keep to timings better and the extra space would be very welcome on the peak trains.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Paul, Vivarail have stated that first TfW 230 will be delivered to Wrexham early summer, so I take that to mean by middle of July. The remaining four units are to be delivered in time for the TfW 230`s to be in service by end of 2019.

I'm intrigued that the 230s will be based at Wrexham.
This base consists of two old south-facing bays at Wrexham General, refurbished and kitted out to service Wrexham and Shropshire Mk3 sets overnight.
It's also uncovered and in clear public view from the overbridge.
If they park at Wrexham Central they will still be in a busy public retail area.
I hope they do not attract the attention of the taggers.
It will save ECS workings from Chester for the Deeside line, but contrarily the Chester-Crewe shuttle will now need some.
 

craigybagel

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It would only free up a single 153, but I think they’d be perfect for the Crewe - Shrewsbury shuttle. There’s talk of Shrewsbury drivers signing Wrexham Bidston anyway, so the shuttle can be done by Chester and Shrewsbury crews and no extra training needed. I think they’d keep to timings better and the extra space would be very welcome on the peak trains.

Indeed, I've been saying since it was announced we'd be getting them in the North that it would make much more sense to use them on the Salop local then on Crewe - Chester. It's rare the existing 153 gets over 60 on that route and with the better acceleration offered by the 230s they'd keep time easily - and there's no risk of them annoying the folks at Beardy Rail if they're too slow or fail like there would be on Crewe - Chester.
 

JonathanH

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Any idea what the Class 230s are booked to work Saturdays yet?

The 150 has gone so, assuming they are in working order, a 230 basically has to work the two car diagram starting 0534 Bletchley to Bedford.
 

JonathanH

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230004 has failed this evening on 2001 Bletchley to Bedford depositing six passengers (including me) at Ridgmont to wait for the next train.

Unit needed to be reset to leave Bletchley then again at Bow Brickhill. They gave up at Ridgmont and it went empty back to Bletchley.
 

Chris125

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The 60mph limit isn't because the units can't get to a higher speed, it's due to things like having smaller wheels than most mainline stock- which makes higher speeds less efficient.

D78s have a similar wheel diameter - 788mm - to most modern units, including Pacers and 150s.

They did have notably smaller wheels than previous sub-surface designs (915mm) but they aren't much smaller than most Sprinters (typically 840mm) and on a par with the latest inside-frame designs under the 172s and Aventras (780mm).

...indeed that means they have larger wheels than 125mph Voyagers and Meridians!
 
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simple simon

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230004 has failed this evening on 2001 Bletchley to Bedford depositing six passengers (including me) at Ridgmont to wait for the next train.

Unit needed to be reset to leave Bletchley then again at Bow Brickhill. They gave up at Ridgmont and it went empty back to Bletchley.

Oh dear, nothing major, I hope.

btw, re: wheels, from what I recall back at the time the D stock was introduced, its wheels are the same as those used on Piccadilly line tube trains (1973 tube stock). This was decided upon because it meant that the depots could pool their stock of spares.
 

Railperf

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It's rare the existing 153 gets over 60 on that route and with the better acceleration offered by the 230s they'd keep time easily.
The acceleration is only slightly better, but yes a 230 will easily keep to 60mph 153 timings - if the 153 can keep them in the first place.
 

sw1ller

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The acceleration is only slightly better, but yes a 230 will easily keep to 60mph 153 timings - if the 153 can keep them in the first place.

Out of all the ones I’ve driven, I’ve been on one that goes like it’s actually got a half decent engine. Pretty sure @craigybagel knows the number of it, all the rest are awful. Some can take 8-10 seconds just to release the brakes. Give it a slight incline and they’re useless.

I can’t believe a 230 is only slightly better. If a 150 is on a 153 diagram it gets to stations 2/3 minutes early so a 230 should breeze it.
 

Bletchleyite

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I know it's operationally convenient to terminate at Ridgmont, but as there's nothing there (when the heritage centre is not open) they need to think about telling people at Woburn Sands so they can at least sit in the pub for an hour. Tipping people out there could well lead to cases of hypothermia...
 

Neen Sollars

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D78s have a similar wheel diameter - 788mm - to most modern units, including Pacers and 150s.

They did have notably smaller wheels than previous sub-surface designs (915mm) but they aren't much smaller than most Sprinters (typically 840mm) and on a par with the latest inside-frame designs under the 172s and Aventras (780mm).

...indeed that means they have larger wheels than 125mph Voyagers and Meridians!

Do you think the current 60 mph limit has something to do with Vivarail using the D78`s existing running line spec/certification which means they are good to run on the main network at 60 mph. And if they wanted to run at higher speeds say 80 mph they would face a drawn out new round of expensive testing and certification? Not sure I understand why higher speeds would make the 230`s less efficient if their wheels are larger than a Voyager.
 

DarloRich

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I know it's operationally convenient to terminate at Ridgmont, but as there's nothing there (when the heritage centre is not open) they need to think about telling people at Woburn Sands so they can at least sit in the pub for an hour. Tipping people out there could well lead to cases of hypothermia...

easy access for replacement buses and v close to M1. Not ideal but about the best place on the line to access with a bus.
 

Bletchleyite

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easy access for replacement buses and v close to M1. Not ideal but about the best place on the line to access with a bus.

If they are actually going to send a bus there then yes, but dumping people there to wait for the next train (as happened here) is not OK. Passengers should not be left at a station that has no proper shelter and no sensible alternative transport for an hour; that is a safety issue. Woburn Sands is much better in that there are pubs/restaurants and a reasonable bus service.

It's not quite tipping everyone off at Dent in January, but it's not far off.
 

DarloRich

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If they are actually going to send a bus there then yes, but dumping people there to wait for the next train (as happened here) is not OK. Passengers should not be left at a station that has no proper shelter and no sensible alternative transport for an hour; that is a safety issue.

It's not quite tipping everyone off at Dent in January, but it's not far off.

agreed. This bus you speak of..........................
 

Railperf

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Out of all the ones I’ve driven, I’ve been on one that goes like it’s actually got a half decent engine. Pretty sure @craigybagel knows the number of it, all the rest are awful. Some can take 8-10 seconds just to release the brakes. Give it a slight incline and they’re useless.

I can’t believe a 230 is only slightly better. If a 150 is on a 153 diagram it gets to stations 2/3 minutes early so a 230 should breeze it.
I have the figures to prove it! To a distance of 1.3 miles - in everyday driving, the 230 was only 7 seconds quicker than the 153 accelerating to around 56mph in the process. of course that can change if the rails are slippery, brakes slow to release etc. You can only compare the traction on a given day.
The 230 driver seemed to hold back full power until the train reached about 7 to 8 mph and then the engines ramped up and gave the full beans. But i am not sure whether that was a driver issue (do they easily wheelslip?) or a driving instruction to get the train rolling before giving it the full beans, or whether the traction system limits full power until the train is rolling between 5 and 10 mph.
 

sw1ller

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Well I’ll not argue with figures. I just thought the 230’s main selling point was it’s superior acceleration. But it seems it’s worse than the 150’s. I shall time a 150 & a 153 between the same two points for as close to 1.3 miles as I can next time I get the chance, for comparison.
 

craigybagel

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Out of all the ones I’ve driven, I’ve been on one that goes like it’s actually got a half decent engine. Pretty sure @craigybagel knows the number of it, all the rest are awful. Some can take 8-10 seconds just to release the brakes. Give it a slight incline and they’re useless.

I can’t believe a 230 is only slightly better. If a 150 is on a 153 diagram it gets to stations 2/3 minutes early so a 230 should breeze it.

Our old friend 320. But yes, as a guard you need to be very careful when a 150 turns up vice 153 as there's a real risk of running early! I love working 153s for a variety of reasons but they're not great if you're in a hurry.


I have the figures to prove it! To a distance of 1.3 miles - in everyday driving, the 230 was only 7 seconds quicker than the 153 accelerating to around 56mph in the process. of course that can change if the rails are slippery, brakes slow to release etc. You can only compare the traction on a given day.
The 230 driver seemed to hold back full power until the train reached about 7 to 8 mph and then the engines ramped up and gave the full beans. But i am not sure whether that was a driver issue (do they easily wheelslip?) or a driving instruction to get the train rolling before giving it the full beans, or whether the traction system limits full power until the train is rolling between 5 and 10 mph.

It's part of the drivers manual for 230s (a friend of a friend of a friend let me have a look) that you're not to take full power from the off. Mind you, that's also true for Sprinters I believe but observance of that seems to be a bit more hit and miss!

I'm hoping though that performance will be better on the 230s in a few months time when the drivers are more familiar with them - it will be quite disappointing if they're only just slightly quicker off the mark then a 153.

It'll also be interesting to see how the TfW units will compare, given they'll be hauling an extra trailer car in the middle and battery equipment.
 
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