Not able to buy returns on trains, only singles?

[Greenback]

The TVM at Llanelli is on the platform, under the canopy but exposed to the sun, the wind, the rain, the moon and the stars! No wonder it's temperamental!

Dolive221, are you saying that because byelaw 18 exists, it is reasonable to automatically assume that anyone who gets on a train without a ticket is a fare evader? Wouldn't that be a classic case of guilty before being proved innocent?

 

[SWT Driver]

But they are guilty, of not buying a ticket before boarding! That is the rule.
Now there may be extenuating circumstances but they are still guilty unless any of the 3 exceptions can be proved, which I would make clear to the guard BEFORE boarding so as to save any argument.

 

[Dolive22]

I'm not saying they will neccessarily not pay their fare, I am saying they have committed an offence. They are guilty of a byelaw offence. It may be that some of them would in time evade their fare.

 

[John @ home]

they are still guilty unless any of the 3 exceptions can be proved

My understanding of UK criminal law is that they are not guilty unless it can be proved that none of the 3 exceptions apply.

That is not at all the same thing.

 

[Helvellyn]

And whilst we wait for the OP to give us specific details of the event that caused this thread to be started a host of disputes break out based on assumptions and various hypothetical situations.

 

[Greenback]

My understanding of UK criminal law is that they are not guilty unless it can be proved that none of the 3 exceptions apply.

That is not at all the same thing.

That was my understanding too! I don't see how, or indeed why, I should or could prove my note was not acceptable to the machine (for instance).

And whilst we wait for the OP to give us specific details of the event that caused this thread to be started a host of disputes break out based on assumptions and various hypothetical situations.

Don't threads normally develop a life of their own?! In any case, when a comment is made that people who board a train without a ticket should be penalised, I reserve the right to challenge that view!

 

[Dolive22]

I actually plan to make a career out of the 'Golden thread' (the presumption of innocence), so I am well aware of it. I didn't actually say that it would in practice be possible to prove that the offence has been comitted, just that it had. I think you could probably prove it in most cases. This started out with someone saying they hadn't tried to buy a ticket before boarding, which makes it unlikely they can give any credible testimony about whether any machine was working. Were there to be an official notice authorising travel without a ticket, the TOC would be aware and there was no mention of being authorised by an authorised person.

I'm not saying they would or should be prosecuted, but the fact is an offence has been comitted. Such people are in the wrong.

 

[yorkie]

The fact is that if someone boards a train without a ticket then, providing penalty fares don't apply, they should be sold a single or return ticket (the customers' choice).

As for "notices" saying you can buy on board, the NCoC counts as a notice, and many TOCs also say so on their website, timetable and other publications. Here is an example from East Coast . You can buy on board, but there are no discounts unless one of the various exceptions apply, or it is a penalty fare train from a penalty fare station.

The customer is in the right, the guard was in the wrong. The guard was compelled to issue a return. I suggest the guard is reported given the attitude of some staff on here, making up their own rules. The rules say a return should be issued if requested. End of!

 

[Greenback]

I actually plan to make a career out of the 'Golden thread' (the presumption of innocence), so I am well aware of it. I didn't actually say that it would in practice be possible to prove that the offence has been comitted, just that it had. I think you could probably prove it in most cases. This started out with someone saying they hadn't tried to buy a ticket before boarding, which makes it unlikely they can give any credible testimony about whether any machine was working. Were there to be an official notice authorising travel without a ticket, the TOC would be aware and there was no mention of being authorised by an authorised person.

I'm not saying they would or should be prosecuted, but the fact is an offence has been comitted. Such people are in the wrong.

Sorry, I wasn;t referring to the OP! I responded to the following sentence included in a post from janb Perhaps you are under the mistaken impression I am in a guard, I am neither that or an RPI. Just someone giving an opinion about a rule that in some instances doesn't reward honest customers, or penalise those who boarded without a ticket.

As someone who has boarded a train without a ticket recently, I felt I should point out that in the circumstances I did not feel I had committed an offence, or that I should be penalised. The specific example in my case was that when i got to the station, the ticket office was open, but a couplke were taking a long time to purchase an advance return to somewhere 'up north' After 5 minutes, there were still two in the queue in front of me as well, so I went to the TVM, only to discover that the touch screen wasn't working. I went back to the queue, but two more people had joined and the original couple still hadn't finished their transaction. I gave up as the train was due in 4 minutes by now and there wasn;t another for an hour.

If anyone had suggested I had done something wrong I would not have been happy. I tried to buy a ticket, and I don't think I should have been forced to buy two singles rather than the day return I wanted!

Again, sorry for any confusion and if anyone feels I hijacked the thread inappropriately!

 

[Dolive22]

Greenback, in the particular case you describe it sounds quite like there were no facilities available. I certainly doubt the magistrates would be inclined to impose anything more than a £1 fine, if not a discharge, even if the interpretation didn't go your way.

Yorkie, the byelaw reads 'there was a notice at the station where he began his journey'. The word notice appears a number of times in circumstances that make it clear that a notice would be displayed, so a copy somewhere behind the counter won't cut it. I don't think it should be a crime to travel in those circumstances, and if in 20 years I'm a Deputy DJ(MC) (stipendary magistrate) any prosecutions that came up before me would get a pretty frosty reception, but the law is the law.

The fact a byelaw offence has technically been comitted is unconnected with the NCoC. It is a mess and should be fixed.

You should infer nothing about my views about what is right from my legal explanation. I did say at the start that I thought the guard was in the wrong, and I thought made it clear that I held people who do what it seems he did in particular contempt.

 

[yorkie]

The law should be repealed/re-worded. Isn't there a law that states it's illegal to die in parliament? If it says on a website and the conditions of carriage that you can buy on board, then you can. End of. If there's some old law that says you can't that isn't enforced then it should be removed but I doubt there is the political will to do so, but that doesn't mean that people are "in the wrong". Fact is you can buy on board, end of. Railtour operators are hardly going to be able to put up notices at stations saying you can buy on board are they? A simple notice on their website or leaflet will suffice. Also many of the TOCs that do allow tickets on board would rather people didn't, so they are hardly going to have big notices up at stations encouraging it. Again, a simple notice on the website saying you can do so but with no discounts does suffice.

The idea that the NCoC and TOC website/leaflet/timetable publicity all counts for nothing because of some old law that insists there must be a notice at a station is surely nonsense.

 

[Dolive22]

I agree that the law should be changed. I agree that you can buy on board. The law is actually less than 5 years old, so I can't really agree that it's old. I agree that having laws that are not enforced is wrong. But unfortunately the fact that the law is wrong doesn't change it.

You could try writing to the secretary of state, but unfortunately since they abolished the SRA they can't make a new set of national byelaws without primary legislation, only byelaws by operator, which would be an administrative nightmare. Hopefully the Conservatives will have a bright idea that makes it possible to have another go at the byelaws.

 

[Helvellyn]

Don't threads normally develop a life of their own?! In any case, when a comment is made that people who board a train without a ticket should be penalised, I reserve the right to challenge that view!

Indeed they do, and I wasn't criticising your right to that view. I was merely commenting that we still don't know what the OP's exact circumstances were, so there are a lot of unknowns still in place.

 

[Dolive22]

I've just realised you might mean I was saying that people who board without tickets should be penalised. I don't think they should if the rules allow them to.

 

[barnesg]

Thanks for the replies.

Yes, I understand that boarding the train, without a ticket is a bad idea but as someone stated we probably have all done it. No excuse but I was running late and didn't fancy waiting another 25minutes for another train.

I got on a Virgin service from Wigan to Preston, 1 stop and its generally about 12 minutes. There is no ticket barrier at Wigan but there is one at Preston generally depending on what platform you get off. Normally the Virgin staff are great but this one guy was so arragont it wound me up. He refused to give me his name, even going as far as covering up his badge. This was after he tried to tell me I'd have to buy 2xsingles from him at double the price of a normal return.

This isn't the first time I've heard a ticket officer say he couldn't issue returns on a train. It has happened a couple of times and it's generally the students who get it in the neck. I just wasn't sure how they could be so inconsistent.

 

[hughesfowler]

so there we have it , the full facts finally emerge and I have no symapthy with the original poster. Wigan is a manned station , you should have bought a ticket before you boarded.

I am sure you will buy one in future. When I worked in one of my previous stations this was one of the main things that annoyed me , people just walking past me and getting on trains. I work at a station with barriers now, that stops em !!!

 

[tony_mac]

while I mostly agree with what you say - that doesn't give the guard the right to make up the rules as he goes along, because he thinks that they are wrong.

Although I think that an alternative investigation for attempted fare evasion should be considered here.

I produced 5 other return tickets that I'd bought on the train

Wigan is not that busy all the time!
And what about the times the guard didn't get to you, did you buy a ticket at Preston?

 

[barnesg]

Well, like I said I already know I should buy a ticket before I board. My question was are the guards not allowed to sell return tickets on the train. To be fair, it seems irrelavent if I had a ticket or not, as it appears the guard was making the rules up as he goes along and lieing.

There's been many a time I've joined a 10 person strong que while 1 member of staff is sat there, while 2 others are moping around in the background It is alot easier now with the automated systems (when they work)

The 5 tickets are funnily enough over the past 8 months, the oldest is 2 months old which is why I produced them. I asked him if they had changed the policy to which he declined to answer but told me the other people were wrong to sell me the tickets.

 

[Greenback]

Greenback, in the particular case you describe it sounds quite like there were no facilities available. I certainly doubt the magistrates would be inclined to impose anything more than a £1 fine, if not a discharge, even if the interpretation didn't go your way.

ATW seem happy to sell tickets on board - no guard has questioned anyone, and I saw a lot of it when I had an annual season. There may be a notice to that effect on Llanelli station, I don't know I haven't looked at the enormous number of notices on the ticket office window, which in any case can't be read once the station is locked up at about 3pm!

I agree that the law should be changed. I agree that you can buy on board. The law is actually less than 5 years old, so I can't really agree that it's old. I agree that having laws that are not enforced is wrong. But unfortunately the fact that the law is wrong doesn't change it.

I think there's a difference between byelaws and laws. There are many byelaws (on and off the railway) that people inadvertently break on a daily basis. These are not usually enforced, it's often enough for an official to have a quiet word, point out that a byelaw has been breached, and ask the person to stop doing whatever it is they are doing. If they refuse, then fixed penalties, arrest and prosecution could occur. I was trained in assertion and conflict avoidance by a police officer who basically said that the first stage was a polite request, second was a polite explanation of the offence being committed and another request, thrid stage was a warning of the consequences of non compliance along with another (less polite) request, and then a final plea before arrest or physical removal.

So I don't necessarily think that the byelaw should be removed, but the automatic assumption that anyone who sets foot on board a train without a ticket is a criminal and needs to be penalised, which seems to be endemic amongst some in the industry, needs to be reconsidered.

Indeed they do, and I wasn't criticising your right to that view. I was merely commenting that we still don't know what the OP's exact circumstances were, so there are a lot of unknowns still in place.

Which we now seem to have!

Thanks for the replies.

Yes, I understand that boarding the train, without a ticket is a bad idea but as someone stated we probably have all done it. No excuse but I was running late and didn't fancy waiting another 25minutes for another train.

I do think there's a difference between running late and deliberately not buying a ticket, and arriving in plenty of time and being unable to buy one (due to a complicated transaction at a one person station and a faulty TVM). Even so, unless it is Virgin's stated policy otherwise, an undiscounted return should be sold on train. Is it Virgin's published policy not to sell return tickets on its trains?

 

[Chris-P]

ATW seem happy to sell tickets on board - no guard has questioned anyone, and I saw a lot of it when I had an annual season. There may be a notice to that effect on Llanelli station, I don't know I haven't looked at the enormous number of notices on the ticket office window, which in any case can't be read once the station is locked up at about 3pm!



I think there's a difference between byelaws and laws. There are many byelaws (on and off the railway) that people inadvertently break on a daily basis. These are not usually enforced, it's often enough for an official to have a quiet word, point out that a byelaw has been breached, and ask the person to stop doing whatever it is they are doing. If they refuse, then fixed penalties, arrest and prosecution could occur. I was trained in assertion and conflict avoidance by a police officer who basically said that the first stage was a polite request, second was a polite explanation of the offence being committed and another request, thrid stage was a warning of the consequences of non compliance along with another (less polite) request, and then a final plea before arrest or physical removal.

So I don't necessarily think that the byelaw should be removed, but the automatic assumption that anyone who sets foot on board a train without a ticket is a criminal and needs to be penalised, which seems to be endemic amongst some in the industry, needs to be reconsidered.



Which we now seem to have!



I do think there's a difference between running late and deliberately not buying a ticket, and arriving in plenty of time and being unable to buy one (due to a complicated transaction at a one person station and a faulty TVM). Even so, unless it is Virgin's stated policy otherwise, an undiscounted return should be sold on train. Is it Virgin's published policy not to sell return tickets on its trains?

Even so, it goes against the NRCoC, and TOCs can't remove rights, just add extra ones!

 

[Drsatan]

And of course there's the famous issue of FGW's machines not working in the rain!

The ticket machine at Romsey (an FGW station) hardly ever works, and that's under a platform canopy!

 

[Helvellyn]

Well now we have more information then you should have been able to buy the SDR (£6.20) ticket as that's the only return fare in Standard Class. Sounds like the staff member was trying to penalise you by saying it had to be two SDS (£6.10) tickets.

Just be glad Virgin don't have Penalty Fares, as by your admission you boarded with no ticket because you were running late and not because there were no facilities.

 

[yorkie]

I do think there's a difference between running late and deliberately not buying a ticket, and arriving in plenty of time and being unable to buy one (due to a complicated transaction at a one person station and a faulty TVM). Even so, unless it is Virgin's stated policy otherwise, an undiscounted return should be sold on train. Is it Virgin's published policy not to sell return tickets on its trains?

Yes there is a difference. In the case of the former, only 'full fare' tickets can be bought, while with the latter the full range of discounted fares can be bought on board. Virgin's policy is to sell full fare tickets on board, if facilities were available to buy a ticket before boarding. A member of Euston barrier staff posted here a few months ago (I can't find the topic now) to say that the policy actually used to be more lenient than that, and discounted tickets were often sold on board, which I wasn't aware of. He also said that barrier staff could sell discounted tickets at the barrier at Euston before boarding but they now send passengers back to the ticket office.

 

[harz99]

Sorry, but now more is known, from my own experience of where VT's on train ticket inspections take place, I can't help feeling that the OP regularly fails to buy a ticket, and probably ends up walking off Preston Station without being charged. That twelve minute journey does not normally have a full ticket inspection.

I think in the past some of the TOCs used to have their own conditions which meant that failing to buy a ticket before travelling when the TO was open, left the pax liable for the full single fare in whichever class he/she was travelling (in which case asking for a return would get 2 x full single fares) - my memories may be incorrect, but can any VT employee shed light on this still being the case or not.

 

[John @ home]

I think in the past some of the TOCs used to have their own conditions which meant that failing to buy a ticket before travelling when the TO was open, left the pax liable for the full single fare in whichever class he/she was travelling (in which case asking for a return would get 2 x full single fares)

The train company's own conditions may give the passenger more rights than the National Conditions of Carriage, but they may not give less.

2. Requirement to hold a ticket
If you travel in a train:
(a) without a ticket; or
(b) the circumstances described in any of Conditions 10, 11, 12, 18, 19, 22, 30, 35 and 39 apply;
you will be liable to pay the full single fare or full return fare or, if appropriate, a Penalty Fare (see Condition 4) for your journey. ...
For the purposes of this Condition, and Conditions 4, 39 and 41, “full single fare or full return fare” means the highest priced single or (if requested by the passenger) return fare appropriate to the class of travel for the journey you are making.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

If the circumstances are as described to us, it seems to me that by refusing to sell a ticket at the full return fare the train company are in breach of Condition 2 and, if as a result a single ticket has been purchased, may be pursued by the passenger for breach of contract.

 

[tony_mac]

if as a result a single ticket has been purchased, may be pursued by the passenger for breach of contract.

Yes, I think he should do that.
As evidence, he should submit copies of all the return tickets that he has previously been able to buy on board.

From the description, it seems that he may have only kept the tickets he bought onboard, and not the tickets that he bought from either Wigan or Preston - so he should give them a complete list of all the times he travelled, so that they can also check the station staff are doing their jobs properly.

He may be lucky and get a lot more than £6 back!

 

[truckman060473]

before, when i went to Cardiff to ride the loco hauled service to Taunton as far as Bristol Temple Meads (BRI) i was on the station and the 14.00 had not arrived until about 13.55. i did not want to buy a ticket to BRI if the 67 hauled diagram wasn't running and since, at 13.55 there was no time to go down to the ticket barriers to buy one, i asked the guard on this FGW service if i could buy the ticket on the train. he said yes. when i was on board and the train was in motion the guard came round, and i wasn't sure what to expect, and so just asked, "how much for BRI return?" he sold me an off peak return for £9.40. i think a guard can sell any type of ticket if he wants to. he knew i should have bought one already but there was no time, but he didn't have to allow for the fact that i didn't want to buy a ticket previously if the service was a DMU

 

[yorkie]

Sorry to be a pain but please mention the name of the station once, and put the code in brackets, you can then use the code after that. I amended your post which had several references to "BTM" but no station matches that code

 

[Dolive22]

I doubt the OP was evading fares, as it would be pretty difficult where one of the stations is barriered. Usually posters who evade will admit it.

The guard shouldn't have covered up their ID badge. If that happens again report it at the station. Virgin don't spend money on badges and management time handing them out for no reason. Virgin will want to deal with people who cover them up.

Greenback, byelaws are laws. There are lots of laws that function the way you describe byelaws functioning. About 99% of the cases of technically illegal boarding without a ticket are a case for prosecutorial discretion.

John @ Home, technically there was no contract until he bought a ticket so you are better citing breach of the NCoC rather than contract, but the chance of your request being read by someone who understands the finer points of formation of a contract are pretty slim.

Just to make it clear, I have boarded a train without a ticket. The Abbey Flier only sells tickets at one station, and I started from the other end of the line.

Good luck getting back your over payment, and I hope Virgin can identify the guard in question.

 

[truckman060473]

yorkie, i fully understand what you've said but after correcting me you said nothing about this topic where should the guard have sold or not sold me this ticket as this is what is relevant for the original thread posted