LNER Azuma (Class 800/801)

[samuelmorris]

At what age / mileage would there be a planned interior refresh where alternative seats could be fitted? Do they have a 10 year shelf life? Or should the frames last the lifetime of the train with recushioning where necessary. Or is it too tightly locked down contractually?

I have done a fair bit of travelling on these recently, both the GWR and LNER versions. And yes - I have experienced the full 5hr journey to Penzance. and i can confirm my posterior is not in any pain at all. The seats are firmer than what we have been used to, and possibly a bit too upright for my frame. But they are okay, And the hundreds of fellow passengers that get on and off, don't seem to complain much at all either. I haven't experienced anything close to a walk-off by anyone because the seats are so horrendously hard to sit on.
But if a time came when mk4 style seats could be fitted...i think it would be welcomed by one and all. The reservation system, for the most part works most of the time. Everything else is okay. I don't mind the GWR trolley, but i wish it would come up and down the train more regularly.
None of the 800's i have been on has experienced a failure yet that caused me any delay. The only delays have been other issues either at the station or to do with traffic on the network.
It looks like there are still a few teething issues, but in all fairness, i think they are a reasonable train. And once the final teething issues are sorted and the new timetable implemented with electric running to Cardiff...it will be a much better all round service. The emphasis now seems to be on moving more people - with less emphasis on luxury or comfort.

I have my doubts - if it was so easy to use something better on non-DfT controlled units, First would have. As it stands, the fact that the TPE fleet are all receiving the same speaks volumes - the market just hasn't delivered anything decent that complies with UK regulations at that speed. If something dramatically better was available, I imagine at least some TOCs would have taken it.

 

[gsnedders]

I have my doubts - if it was so easy to use something better on non-DfT controlled units, First would have. As it stands, the fact that the TPE fleet are all receiving the same speaks volumes - the market just hasn't delivered anything decent that complies with UK regulations at that speed. If something dramatically better was available, I imagine at least some TOCs would have taken it.

No, the TOCs don't have free will over stock procurement: it has to be agreed with the DfT.

The GWR order for 802s was agreed on the condition that the interior was near identical to the IEP stock, against GWR's wishes.

The TPE order may well have been similar: don't want TPE ending up running nicer trains than LNER.

 

[samuelmorris]

No, the TOCs don't have free will over stock procurement: it has to be agreed with the DfT.

The GWR order for 802s was agreed on the condition that the interior was near identical to the IEP stock, against GWR's wishes.

The TPE order may well have been similar: don't want TPE ending up running nicer trains than LNER.

For their 802s, yes, but I'm not sure I see why that should be true of the 397s and Mk5s. Perhaps it was, but it'd be the first I've heard of it.

 

[ashkeba]

I disagree. If you only have a single light either on or off to indicate if the seat is reserved, people will slow down to check the detailed text assuming that the light has failed. Providing a positive yes-no indication using two colours (or three, as I believe TPE will use on their Nova 1s) allows the vast majority of passengers to be confident in the indication without needing to stop to read the detail on the display.

There's a word for when the railway deliberately provides a new service that works only for "the vast majority" based on a physical ability: discrimination! Sometimes it's excused or mitigated, but this one sounds like it was completely avoidable.

Is there at least a height difference between the yes and no lights?

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's a word for when the railway deliberately provides a new service that works only for "the vast majority" based on a physical ability: discrimination! Sometimes it's excused or mitigated, but this one sounds like it was completely avoidable.

Not with the same level of functionality in terms of the UI (because red, amber and green are so well known). It's probably a "reasonable adjustment" that someone who is red-green colourblind can read the textual display.

 

[ashkeba]

Not with the same level of functionality in terms of the UI (because red, amber and green are so well known). It's probably a "reasonable adjustment" that someone who is red-green colourblind can read the textual display.

As I hinted and you cut, the usual UK red/amber/green doesn't discriminate because of the height difference between the lights. I can't tell from the videos and photos I've found so far whether there is any such difference on LNER sets.

Laboriously reading the textual displays doesn't seem a reasonable adjustment because it does not offer the same at-a-glance and overview UX, meaning colourblind passengers are slowed down and thereby likely to be beaten to available seats by non-colourblind ones.

This seems so avoidable, whether by having lights on/off or otherwise. I'd love to know whether anyone thought about red-green colourblind passengers when designing it.

 

[Richard Ingram]

As I hinted and you cut, the usual UK red/amber/green doesn't discriminate because of the height difference between the lights. I can't tell from the videos and photos I've found so far whether there is any such difference on LNER sets.

Laboriously reading the textual displays doesn't seem a reasonable adjustment because it does not offer the same at-a-glance and overview UX, meaning colourblind passengers are slowed down and thereby likely to be beaten to available seats by non-colourblind ones.

This seems so avoidable, whether by having lights on/off or otherwise. I'd love to know whether anyone thought about red-green colourblind passengers when designing it.

As someone who has been designing a computer interface with a traffic light system, the best solution, talking to a colour blind user, was to have the shape change. In my case red cross, green tick and yellow dot, maybe for seats it should be red bar, green circle and yellow semi-circle?

 

[westv]

A system that caters for 92% of the population is fine in my eyes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As someone who has been designing a computer interface with a traffic light system, the best solution, talking to a colour blind user, was to have the shape change. In my case red cross, green tick and yellow dot, maybe for seats it should be red bar, green circle and yellow semi-circle?

You wouldn't see that looking down the length of the train. Looking at the individual screen, you can just read the text.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As I hinted and you cut, the usual UK red/amber/green doesn't discriminate because of the height difference between the lights. I can't tell from the videos and photos I've found so far whether there is any such difference on LNER sets.

Laboriously reading the textual displays doesn't seem a reasonable adjustment because it does not offer the same at-a-glance and overview UX, meaning colourblind passengers are slowed down and thereby likely to be beaten to available seats by non-colourblind ones.

This seems so avoidable, whether by having lights on/off or otherwise. I'd love to know whether anyone thought about red-green colourblind passengers when designing it.

Can you propose an alternative that will not be less functional to those not affected? (Remember that things like lifts, ramps, accessible toilets etc are of benefit to everyone, not just those with disabilities).

The lights aren't offset and I don't see how they visibly could be.

 

[Richard Ingram]

A system that caters for 92% of the population is fine in my eyes.

That attitude implies that the 1.9% of the UK population that use a wheelchair can be safely ignored.

https://www.disabled-world.com/disability/statistics/wheelchair-stats.php

These discussion should at the very least be had, and we can weigh up the options.

 

[ashkeba]

That attitude implies that the 1.9% of the UK population that use a wheelchair can be safely ignored.

https://www.disabled-world.com/disability/statistics/wheelchair-stats.php

These discussion should at the very least be had, and we can weigh up the options.

One option should be to disable the minority advocating ignoring minorities, ignoring their views along the way!

 

[ashkeba]

Can you propose an alternative that will not be less functional to those not affected?

Once again: put the red light above the amber above the green. How is that less functional for anyone?

 

[samuelmorris]

As I hinted and you cut, the usual UK red/amber/green doesn't discriminate because of the height difference between the lights. I can't tell from the videos and photos I've found so far whether there is any such difference on LNER sets.

Laboriously reading the textual displays doesn't seem a reasonable adjustment because it does not offer the same at-a-glance and overview UX, meaning colourblind passengers are slowed down and thereby likely to be beaten to available seats by non-colourblind ones.

This seems so avoidable, whether by having lights on/off or otherwise. I'd love to know whether anyone thought about red-green colourblind passengers when designing it.

Not something I agree with. That sort of thinking leads to unnecessarily compromising the user experience of the many for the needs of the few. Making systems intentionally less user-friendly for the benefit of colour-blind users seems totally unnecessary. If the same amount of information can still be conveyed to those people (which it can), there is no issue in my mind.

The reason the different colours are not above each other is, as far as I can see, because each seat in the pair has its own indicator and the two are placed above each other.

 

[Richard Ingram]

Can you propose an alternative that will not be less functional to those not affected? (Remember that things like lifts, ramps, accessible toilets etc are of benefit to everyone, not just those with disabilities).

The lights aren't offset and I don't see how they visibly could be.

If designed from the beginning, they could easily have been designed offset, for example, put the colour lights as dual colour bars above and below the screens, so the top can be red or yellow, and the bottom could be yellow or green, so you have the three states as red above, green below and yellow both.

Edit:
Thinking about it, I would say red/green and yellow/green instead, this means that the failure of one light will not lead to misinterpreting a booked seat for an available one, causing confusion.

 

[Richard Ingram]

Not something I agree with. That sort of thinking leads to unnecessarily compromising the user experience of the many for the needs of the few. Making systems intentionally less user-friendly for the benefit of colour-blind users seems totally unnecessary. If the same amount of information can still be conveyed to those people (which it can), there is no issue in my mind.

The reason the different colours are not above each other is, as far as I can see, because each seat in the pair has its own indicator and the two are placed above each other.

People are not asking for the system to be compromised for their benefit, they would be happy with a system that gives as many as possible the benefits most people enjoy.

Saying that they can't be above/below because currently the window/aisle lights are above/below is thinking restricted by the current setup. Window/aisle distinction is not required at a distance, so they can safely be put side by side, or each end of the display panel, allowing above/below to be used for state distinction.

Sometimes compromise is required, but in this case changes could be made that do not affect the majority at all.

 

[westv]

If you change things for those who are colour blind then surely you would need to amend it to assist those who are blind? How would you do that? What about those who are short sighted?

 

[Richard Ingram]

If you change things for those who are colour blind then surely you would need to amend it to assist those who are blind? How would you do that? What about those who are short sighted?

This is slippery slope stuff to the extreme. Just because you can't easily help everyone, does that mean you don't make reasonable changes for those you can help?

It's important to have the discussions, and not have an immediate, knee-jerk rejection of any request for change.

 

[ashkeba]

If you change things for those who are colour blind then surely you would need to amend it to assist those who are blind? How would you do that? What about those who are short sighted?

I think that is literally whataboutery, but I can deal with one of those: short-sighted people already wear glasses to enable them to see the same displays.

 

[transmanche]

Laboriously reading the textual displays doesn't seem a reasonable adjustment because it does not offer the same at-a-glance and overview UX, meaning colourblind passengers are slowed down and thereby likely to be beaten to available seats by non-colourblind ones.

The text displays effectively replicate what used to be on the paper reservation labels. So the railway could just replace one with the other - as I believe VTEC/LNER did on their legacy stock. The traffic light colours are in addition to the information on the text displays.

As someone who has been designing a computer interface with a traffic light system, the best solution, talking to a colour blind user, was to have the shape change. In my case red cross, green tick and yellow dot, maybe for seats it should be red bar, green circle and yellow semi-circle?

In my day working on interface design (admittedly nearly a decade ago now) the rule was never to use colour as the only way of displaying information. Colour would only be used to reinforce or highlight information.

As the colour lights on the new seat reservation system are in addition to what was available on the old paper label system and that anyone who cannot access that is no worse off than they were, I'd say that the new system is fine and does not discriminate.

 

[ashkeba]

As the colour lights on the new seat reservation system are in addition to what was available on the old paper label system and that anyone who cannot access that is no worse off than they were, I'd say that the new system is fine and does not discriminate.

Would I be correct to guess you're one of the non-colourblind people who now have an increased chance of getting a seat?

If HS2 were built without any PRM access, would you say that does not discriminate because anyone who cannot access that is no worse off than they were able to use the classic lines?

 

[Thunderer]

Again, please speak for yourself. You may think alongside others that they’re a poor replacement, but some people including myself aren’t so cynical and believe it to be a decent enough replacement for very old and inadequate trains such as the HST.

I am speaking for myself, I didn't ask for anyone to comment.

 

[ainsworth74]

Has anyone issued a complaint for discrimination regarding the current colour light system used on LNER at present?

 

[Kendalian]

Had my first journey on an Azuma today, 800104 on the 1433 Kings Cross-Leeds. No worries about the colour of the reservation system, it had failed to download at all
Positives - very impressive acceleration, especially at lower speeds. Presume the 801's without the weight of the diesel engines/fuel will be quicker still? - Coach was light and spacious with a high roof and power sockets at every seat cleverly placed at foot level in between the seats for easy access - window sill was much lower than some stock giving a good view out - trolley service came through twice

Negatives - very noisy (a sort of whining noise) when accelerating, especially at lower speeds - seats very firm (I didn't find them uncomfortable, but they were not comfortable....) - seat reservations not working - wifi slow - train announcements very hard to hear (needs the volume turning up!) - high seat backs restricted views down the coach - some seats aligned with the window pillars (not quite as restrictive as the Pendos but not much better).
Then my 2 biggest moans....
The power sockets although well positioned I nearly broke my finger trying to remove my charger! It was so hard to remove it - guess it will loosen up with use but that was hard going!
The coach ride was very firm. Like a sports car suspension. Felt every jolt over points etc. The Pendo travelling down from Manchester was the epitome of smooth running round the WCML curves by comparison.

Verdict - Operationally the Azumas (and GWR equivalent) will be great in bi mode for removing hundreds of miles of diesel power under the wires, big plus there.
That aside, once you're on the train, I was disappointed, especially with the ride quality and seating; the Pendo is much better in that respect.
Didn't visit the shop or toilets so can't comment on those.
Goes to show yet again how good the HST was over 40 years ago and still going strong....

 

[Mugby]

Will the Azumas last for over 40 years? - any opinions?

 

[jzw95]

The text displays effectively replicate what used to be on the paper reservation labels.

Except that with the paper labels, you can easily glance down the carriage to see which seats have no labels and are completely free. This can even be done through the windows from outside the carriage, making it a quick way to choose a less busy carriage. But there definitely is functionality lost for colour-blind people.

 

[Japan0913]

Will the Azumas last for over 40 years? - any opinions?

In Class 80X and Class 390, it will be difficult to replenish parts in about 30 years, electronics and programs will become old, maintenance costs will be extremely high, and various problems will occur. We think that it is better to replace with new car by use of around 20 years.
I think Class 22X and Class 390 are now updated.

 

[Ethano92]

Except that with the paper labels, you can easily glance down the carriage to see which seats have no labels and are completely free. This can even be done through the windows from outside the carriage, making it a quick way to choose a less busy carriage. But there definitely is functionality lost for colour-blind people.

Surely we need to be able to distinguish between a system that slightly reduced convenience and a system that discriminates

 

[Bletchleyite]

Once again: put the red light above the amber above the green. How is that less functional for anyone?

You're not going to see the difference looking along the train. They'd be too close to one another.

 

[ashkeba]

You're not going to see the difference looking along the train. They'd be too close to one another.

I think you'd be able to tell if the light was nearest the top or bottom edge of the display. I can on the router here (although that doesn't help because I can never remember which is the local and which is the outside!)