Northern Class 195: Initial Diagrams

[Bovverboy]

On the Sunday diagrams provided by mikemcniven (post #116) Circuit 1 is shown operating an 1851 journey Barrow to Manchester Airport. In fact this journey terminates at Preston. The unit probably then couples to the unit working Circuit 2 to return to Barrow. There is no 2046 departure from Manchester Airport, 2046 is the departure time from Preston.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/mikemcniven/48204667011/

 

[mrcaa]

I'm afraid that the screens would have shown 'six carriages' irrespective of whether or not all were available for public use. In the days when a Class 319 was transported from Allerton Depot to Manchester Victoria (and back, at the end of the day), on the back of an in-service 319, and the rear unit was unavailable for public use (not least, because the formation was too long for many of the station platforms en route), the information screens always, absolutely always, stated: 'This Train Is Formed Of Eight Carriages'. It would have been helpful, of course, if the message had read something like 'Please Use The Front Four Carriages Only', but that is not how things are done, the train is six-car, eight-car, or whatever, because from a signalling viewpoint, that's what it is.

Aren’t the screens for passengers not staff though? Surely signalling purposes are irrelevant to passengers? And is it possible for them to add the message “front four carriages in use only” to the display? I don’t understand why they wouldn’t do that unless they want to deliberately cause chaos.

 

[Bovverboy]

Aren’t the screens for passengers not staff though? Surely signalling purposes are irrelevant to passengers? And is it possible for them to add the message “front four carriages in use only” to the display? I don’t understand why they wouldn’t do that unless they want to deliberately cause chaos.

The answers to your first two questions are obvious, but information displayed on departure screens (and in voice announcements) basically comes from information in respect of which the primary purpose is to use for Network Rail's internal purposes, i.e. knowing where trains are so that they aren't signalled to run into each other. A signaller needs to know if a train is 2-car or 4-car, or whatever, so that he doesn't send a four-car train into a platform which has a capacity of, say, six cars but which is already holding a four-car train. As to adding extra messages to a display, that I don't know, sorry.

 

[_toommm_]

Circuit Three is operating as a single Class 156 today - should be 156455.

 

[M60lad]

There was also a 195 out on 19:15 Liverpool Lime Street-Manchester Airport via Warrington Central not to sure whether this was booked or whether it was a spare that had been pressed into service, I knew from looking at the workings that were posted on here that 18:15 was planned to be a 195 but didnt realise one would be out on 19:15 as well

 

[mrcaa]

The answers to your first two questions are obvious, but information displayed on departure screens (and in voice announcements) basically comes from information in respect of which the primary purpose is to use for Network Rail's internal purposes, i.e. knowing where trains are so that they aren't signalled to run into each other. A signaller needs to know if a train is 2-car or 4-car, or whatever, so that he doesn't send a four-car train into a platform which has a capacity of, say, six cars but which is already holding a four-car train. As to adding extra messages to a display, that I don't know, sorry.

I take your point about the source of the data being for the network operators so that shouldn’t be changed. I know at Crewe though when a Virgin train arrives it tells you which coaches are First Class, where the shop is etc. so they can clearly do this at the big interchanges at least. That would be the best solution as it would accurately tell the signallers how many coaches to expect but also tell the passengers where they need to board so avoid any confusion.

 

[NoMorePacers]

Are 195s operating in the East, and if so does anyone know when?

 

[_toommm_]

Are 195s operating in the East, and if so does anyone know when?

Nowhere in the East yet. Just Man Airport to Liverpool (via Warrington), to Windermere and to Barrow.

 

[turbostarrob]

For those wanting to know, yesterday (06/07)

195116 Operated the 20:47 MIA-LIV
195117 Operated the 20:16 LIV-MIA

I took 116 from the Airport and saw 117 at Piccadilly.

Hope this helps to clear things up a bit!

 

[Jamesrob637]

Is Circuit 4 a 195 today? Hoping to pick up the 09:29 Airport to Barrow. Thanks in advance!

 

[Mathew S]

Is Circuit 4 a 195 today? Hoping to pick up the 09:29 Airport to Barrow. Thanks in advance!

Yes, it's 195114, currently a couple of minutes late on Chat Moss heading towards Manchester. You should have no problems with the 0929 off the airport.

 

[Philip]

What is the linespeed for the Lostock Junction to Wigan line? Was wondering now that the Bolton line is faster if it would be quicker running to Wigan via (but not stopping at) Bolton, rather than the Chat Moss?

 

[Jamesrob637]

Yes, it's 195114, currently a couple of minutes late on Chat Moss heading towards Manchester. You should have no problems with the 0929 off the airport.

Thank you, yes saw from RTT that it's slightly down at the moment. Hopefully it'll be only a few late into the airport and get back out more or less on time.

 

[Mathew S]

Thank you, yes saw from RTT that it's slightly down at the moment. Hopefully it'll be only a few late into the airport and get back out more or less on time.

It made up a few minutes not having to use it's pathing allowance at Parkside Jcn. Probably be about 5 late at Picc, so should be back on time for the return leg from the airport for you

 

[Jamesrob637]

It made up a few minutes not having to use it's pathing allowance at Parkside Jcn. Probably be about 5 late at Picc, so should be back on time for the return leg from the airport for you

It's just catching up with the Chester to Manchester at Oxford Road. Think that's the Arriva loco-hauled which goes back to Holyhead at 09:50

 

[Mathew S]

It's just catching up with the Chester to Manchester at Oxford Road. Think that's the Arriva loco-hauled which goes back to Holyhead at 09:50

Yeah, that's normal. This service is always about 5 late at Picc for that very reason.

 

[Bovverboy]

I take your point about the source of the data being for the network operators so that shouldn’t be changed. I know at Crewe though when a Virgin train arrives it tells you which coaches are First Class, where the shop is etc. so they can clearly do this at the big interchanges at least. That would be the best solution as it would accurately tell the signallers how many coaches to expect but also tell the passengers where they need to board so avoid any confusion.

You're quite right, of course, I don't think there's any limit to the amount of information which can be displayed on a screen, or, for that matter, how much can be included in an auto-announcement. This 'extra' information only seems to be provided, however, at major interchanges, as you say, where there are screens which are devoted to a single departure. At my own local station a large screen on each platform (and a similar one in the booking office, visible from outside - but only in pitch darkness!) shows all scheduled departures from the station, including any rail replacement buses, over the following two hours. Smaller screens on each platform show scheduled departures from that platform only, again for the following two hours, but there is additional detail, i.e. intermediate station calls and train formation - this train has four carriages, etc. Auto-announcements give the same information.

 

[Bovverboy]

On the Sunday diagrams provided by mikemcniven (post #116) Circuit 1 is shown operating an 1851 journey Barrow to Manchester Airport. In fact this journey terminates at Preston. The unit probably then couples to the unit working Circuit 2 to return to Barrow. There is no 2046 departure from Manchester Airport, 2046 is the departure time from Preston.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/mikemcniven/48204667011/

And that is indeed what happens. 1P90 arrives in P5 at Preston at 2014 (scheduled) and, I think, immediately opens up for business as 1C59, 2046 Preston to Barrow. At 2037 (scheduled) 1T59 arrives in P5 from Manchester Airport, pulls in close behind the other unit, everyone is booted off and those wanting points beyond Preston are required to traipse up the platform to board 1C59. 1T59 then couples to 1C59 to become 1C59 (double), but with the rear unit out of use. Forcing everyone to change train does save a shunt move.
What the passengers think to this is not known! As it happens, a majority of those arriving at Preston from the south appear to terminate their journeys at Preston anyway.
The 1933 from the Airport (1T59) is shown on Northern's timetable as a through service to Barrow, but on journey planners, etc, it is shown as change at Preston. This changes from 4 August when, even on journey planners, the 1933 comes up as a through service, but the platform discipline at Preston looks to be unchanged! A bit of kidology going on there, I think.

 

[Bovverboy]

Circuit Three is operating as a single Class 156 today - should be 156455.

As effectively foretold by mikemcniven, there were three 195s operating on the Airport-Barrow/Windermere circuit yesterday (Sunday 7/7), but, as hinted by _toommm_ above, they weren't the same three as shown in the summary. Circuits 1 and 2 were covered by 195s (195121 & 195114 respectively) but third (195120) was on the duty which does 0840 ex-Barrow, 1133 Windermere, etc, and 1833 Barrow. So all three 195s were on Barrow starts, the fourth Barrow start being operated by 158859. Other units on the circuit were 156455 (as stated above), 158797 and 158861.

 

[Bovverboy]

It's just catching up with the Chester to Manchester at Oxford Road. Think that's the Arriva loco-hauled which goes back to Holyhead at 09:50

Is the 0950 loco-hauled again now? It was a 175/1 when I saw it last Wednesday.

 

[_toommm_]

Is the 0950 loco-hauled again now? It was a 175/1 when I saw it last Wednesday.

It was being covered by 175s a few weeks ago IIRC, but it's back to the normal MK3 rake.

 

[Bovverboy]

There was also a 195 out on 19:15 Liverpool Lime Street-Manchester Airport via Warrington Central not to sure whether this was booked or whether it was a spare that had been pressed into service, I knew from looking at the workings that were posted on here that 18:15 was planned to be a 195 but didnt realise one would be out on 19:15 as well

Just to stress, the above relates to the situation prevailing on Saturday 6 July. As to the 'extra' 195 in use, it has since been reported that this is a scheduled diagram, which makes sense since there is a 195 available.
And to add, both Triumph and mikemcniven were correct in saying no 195s were going to be used on Airport-Liverpools yesterday (Sunday 7 July). All three diagrams started out covered by double 156s, by 2200 at least one one had dropped down to a single, but one of the others was still a double, the third I don't know.

 

[js1000]

Circuit 6 was a 3-coach this morning.

Clearly, the scheduled 6 coach services on Circuit 7 would be the one to be culled if a 195 was not in service to make up for a cancelled train elsewhere.

 

[Bovverboy]

Circuit 6 was a 3-coach this morning.

Clearly, the scheduled 6 coach services on Circuit 7 would be the one to be culled if a 195 was not in service to make up for a cancelled train elsewhere.

I presume the point you're making, js1000, is that it is better to short-form one service than to completely cancel another. Well, that's okay, as long as the train you're proposing to short-form can stand the short-forming. Before the 195s came along there were stories of double 156s bursting at the seams on what is now the 0748 ex-Wilmslow, and I'm sure that a single 195 won't have the same capacity as a double 156.
Did you travel on the 3-car (vice 6-car) this morning? If so, where?

 

[_toommm_]

- Circuit One missing out the first Preston to Barrow and back, again due to a train fault.

- Circuit Three has been caped at Carnforth due to a train fault.

 

[Bovverboy]

- Circuit One missing out the first Preston to Barrow and back, again due to a train fault.

According to RTT they're starting it at Preston on the return (at 0908), which is effectively what you're saying, but the picture isn't clear unless you happen to know what was scheduled.

- Circuit Three has been caped at Carnforth due to a train fault.

Should have been 0453 Barrow-Airport. It looks to have gone back to Barrow ECS, 5U90 0555 ex-Carnforth (actual 0608). The return working from the Airport (0725 Airport-Barrow) is cancelled completely.
The 0522 Airport to Barrow is reported delayed at Preston by 26 minutes waiting for a delayed crew (presumably the one stuck at Carnforth), but this is, as far as we know, a Sprinter diagram. 5U90 would have still needed a driver, even ECS, so they must have rustled one up from somewhere!

 

[Mathew S]

According to RTT they're starting it at Preston on the return (at 0908), which is effectively what you're saying, but the picture isn't clear unless you happen to know what was scheduled.

Circuit Three has been caped at Carnforth due to a train fault.

It looks to have gone back to Barrow ECS, 5U90 0555 ex-Carnforth (actual 0608). The return working from the Airport (0725 Airport-Barrow) is cancelled.
The 0522 Airport to Barrow is reported delayed at Preston by 26 minutes waiting for a delayed crew (presumably the one stuck at Carnforth), but this is, as far as we know, a Sprinter diagram. 5U90 would have still needed a driver, even ECS, so they must have rustled a driver up from somewhere!

Indeed. Also some delays through Wigan due to a failed 319 (I think) just to add a little variety to the morning

No mention of cancellations to the subsequent services in circuit 3, so hopefully they'll either be able to resurrect the failed unit or sub in another unit from Barrow.

 

[Glenn1969]

Led to believe 195105 is coming to Huddersfield shortly for crew training and route learning and introduction on Chester-Leeds and Blackpool-York services may not be too far away

 

[Bovverboy]

Led to believe 195105 is coming to Huddersfield shortly for crew training and route learning and introduction on Chester-Leeds and Blackpool-York services may not be too far away

Reported on the other 195 thread as having made the journey on Monday morning.

I just spotted 195105 on an ECS move from Allerton to Huddersfield, which I believe is for driver training over there. This is the first time I've seen one east of Stalybridge. Will it be the first of the type to venture through Standedge?

195105 by Mark Nulty, on Flickr

 

[Yorkshireman16]

195105 was parked up Huddersfield 10/7