How could Northern Rail be improved?

[Bletchleyite]

Funny, one keeps hearing posters here claiming that journey time doesn't matter and travellers don't care about arriving twenty minutes later if they have [insert poster's hobbyhorse here].

Just going to use this one as the starter to break this out from the 195 thread.

Clearly Class 195s (more of them) are a way Northern Rail could be improved.

But talking of the timetable, if it isn't viable to increase service frequencies I'd suggest that looking at connections is the way to go. Obviously there isn't the capacity to have everything meet everything, but a survey of car journeys around the North could give a good idea as to which demands are not being met and whether they could be.

But here's a nice example of just how lackadaisical Northern are about this kind of thing. Exhibit A - a journey plan from Ormskirk to Blackpool South:



Journey time 2 hours 8 minutes, with one change at Preston, with a wait of 61 minutes. Rather unattractive; according to Google you could cycle it in little more than that.

But hang on a minute, isn't the service hourly on both routes? Yes, it is.

Isn't it actually the same unit going through? Oh, yes it is. But Northern don't see fit to tell the passengers that it is.

Therefore, the correct journey time that any such journey takes is in fact 1 hour and 8 minutes with no change necessary at Preston. Rather more attractive, no? By car, according to Google Maps, is around an hour - so this is not an unattractive journey time, and you can have a pint or 4 when you get there if you go by train.

Now, I do gather that Northern advertise it this way to stop people wondering why there's a through service in one direction but not in the other - but to me this is blindingly stupid and solving things like this really must be a high priority. It is a through service, so put it in the database as one. Coming back is slower with a wait at Preston of around 35 minutes, but this is rather less silly than an hour and a minute.

Making the service look even less attractive than it actually is makes the mind utterly boggle.

 

[samuelmorris]

Just going to use this one as the starter to break this out from the 195 thread.

Clearly Class 195s (more of them) are a way Northern Rail could be improved.

But talking of the timetable, if it isn't viable to increase service frequencies I'd suggest that looking at connections is the way to go. Obviously there isn't the capacity to have everything meet everything, but a survey of car journeys around the North could give a good idea as to which demands are not being met and whether they could be.

But here's a nice example of just how lackadaisical Northern are about this kind of thing. Exhibit A - a journey plan from Ormskirk to Blackpool South:

View attachment 65903

Journey time 2 hours 8 minutes, with one change at Preston, with a wait of 61 minutes. Rather unattractive; according to Google you could cycle it in little more than that.

But hang on a minute, isn't the service hourly on both routes? Yes, it is.

Isn't it actually the same unit going through? Oh, yes it is. But Northern don't see fit to tell the passengers that it is.

Therefore, the correct journey time that any such journey takes is in fact 1 hour and 8 minutes with no change necessary at Preston. Rather more attractive, no? By car, according to Google Maps, is around an hour - so this is not an unattractive journey time, and you can have a pint or 4 when you get there if you go by train.

Now, I do gather that Northern advertise it this way to stop people wondering why there's a through service in one direction but not in the other - but to me this is blindingly stupid and solving things like this really must be a high priority. It is a through service, so put it in the database as one. Coming back is slower with a wait at Preston of around 35 minutes, but this is rather less silly than an hour and a minute.

Making the service look even less attractive than it actually is makes the mind utterly boggle.

This is certainly unhelpful, and is the kind of thing regular railway users will be oblivious to without the inside knowledge people like us have.

Thinking more strategically long-term about what could improve public transport use, I am a remote worker the opposite side of the M25 to the majority of my company's customer base. Where we have customers close to stations, I'm more than happy to get the train into London then out to the relevant location the other side. I can work while I'm on the train, I can't while I'm sat in traffic on the M25 for 2 hours. The problem comes from clients that aren't near to stations where travelling to them by rail would mean a 10 minute bus journey on a bus that only runs once an hour, or an 80 minute walk, each way. Neither of these options are really appropriate. What if the train is delayed and I just miss the bus? Another hour of working time lost. Buses also frequently don't turn up, and there's no delay repay there. That said, it seems very wasteful to drive all the way down to that local area, otherwise unnecessarily, just because of the transit options available for the last couple of miles. Cycling is one potential option but bikes on trains is a bit iffy and cycling itself is pretty lethal in a lot of places, also not appropriate if you're carrying equipment with you. More thought needs to go into integrating with 'last mile' options. As it stands, I will take the train whenever it's remotely viable but even here in the southeast, I'm now doing 12000 miles a year by road and only 2000 by rail. There must be a huge quantity of people up north who have this predicament, even before you consider the potential issues of crowded trains, unpleasant rolling stock, service reliability, interchange times and so on.

Edit: I haven't forgotten about taxis, but if you don't know the area, knowing a reputable company can also be a bit of guesswork. Booking at the right time for your train can also sometimes be a bit risky, again if you're delayed, or if the mobile coverage is patchy while en route. Most stations do not have unbooked cars waiting.

 

[Mollman]

Unfortunately some of the issues will rely on Network Rail. Preston - Leeds could be quicker and thus more attractive. The main issue is speed limits of under 75 mph between Preston and Burnley, something all to obvious when you parallel the motorway and are being overtaken by cars.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unfortunately some of the issues will rely on Network Rail. Preston - Leeds could be quicker and thus more attractive. The main issue is speed limits of under 75 mph between Preston and Burnley, something all to obvious when you parallel the motorway and are being overtaken by cars.

Quite different from the best bit of the WCML alongside the M1 near Northampton!

It might be difficult/expensive to solve that, though, so what things are more viable to fix?

 

[Clip]

The problem comes from clients that aren't near to stations where travelling to them by rail would mean a 10 minute bus journey on a bus that only runs once an hour, or an 80 minute walk, each way. Neither of these options are really appropriate. What if the train is delayed and I just miss the bus? Another hour of working time lost. Buses also frequently don't turn up, and there's no delay repay there.

Just get an uber

 

[Clip]

Now, I do gather that Northern advertise it this way to stop people wondering why there's a through service in one direction but not in the other

I dont think thats the reason if im honest because they do it with the Colne trains too which doesnt make sense but I cant really think why they do it but there must be a reason

 

[6Gman]

Expensive ways of improving Northern:

New trains
PW upgrades
Platforms 15/16 at Piccadilly

Inexpensive (relatively) ways of improving Northern:

Keep the Pacers as "crowdbusters"
Thin out the timetable

 

[samuelmorris]

Just get an uber

That's the solution we're recommending to everybody is it?

 

[Puffing Devil]

Just get an uber

Not outside of your metropolitan elite areas!

The problem comes from clients that aren't near to stations where travelling to them by rail would mean a 10 minute bus journey on a bus that only runs once an hour, or an 80 minute walk, each way

If it's work then maybe the uber expensive folding electric Brompton would be a reasonable compromise. A snip at £2.5K, but could be quite the saving on cabs.

 

[samuelmorris]

Not outside of your metropolitan elite areas!



If it's work then maybe the uber expensive folding electric Brompton would be a reasonable compromise. A snip at £2.5K, but could be quite the saving on cabs.

For me I could probably get away with that (not that I'd be willing to pay for such a thing) but I'm thinking here of a solution for everyone. Bicycles, even powered ones, aren't suitable for everyone using public transport, and they don't necessarily have to be disabled. Carrying an electric bike over footbridges and the likes at stations that aren't disabled accessible would also be a thorough pain.

 

[a_c_skinner]

For me (again) the big Northern issue (Transpennine too of course, and X-C in the Leeds-York corridor) is capacity and my gut feeling is that all the new trains are too short, a re-run of the 390s and 185s. I am fairly certain that lack of capacity limits ridership through a good deal of the day on a lot of routes. I've no data but a lot of platforms are artificially shortened by a fence and weeds; SDO is crucial too. We need to regard "full" as all seats taken, not all seats plus standing short of crush loaded. Speeding up trains is too technical for me to comment on, I don't know if there are many "quick wins".

 

[northernchris]

More clockface patterns would be a good start. Stop the ridiculous notion that through services to everywhere are a must and focus on what can be delivered reliably and consistently, adjusting journey times where necessary

 

[Bletchleyite]

More clockface patterns would be a good start. Stop the ridiculous notion that through services to everywhere are a must and focus on what can be delivered reliably and consistently, adjusting journey times where necessary

Yes, this. The North has a complex web of demand that isn't as simple as the South East. Basing it all around an hourly clockface pattern with planned connections and doing targetted infrastructure changes[1] to provide for this (then adding extras on top) would be a good plan in my book.

Having said all that, I can't see a single infrastructure improvement that would benefit the North's railway more than Piccadilly P15/16 and the associated Oxford Road works - but without adding any more trains - just as a resilience and lengthening improvement.

Indeed, I'd work towards platform extensions allowing the standard mainline train length to be 6x24m and branch lines 3x24m. That would work well with more CAF units were any ordered. The next stage might be 8x24m for doubled 319s and CAF EMUs, but needing that may be a while off. Having done this, order an additional coach to make all the CAF DMUs 3-car.

[1] For instance, adding two platforms to Preston (7 and "0" on the RES station) would be relatively simple and would make it more feasible to use it as a connectional node. Similarly Lancaster could have one reinstated at a relatively limited cost. The RES platform was used as "platform 7" in the 1990s when half the roof blew down.

 

[158756]

Very difficult to change, but living in East Lancashire and owning a car I would say the biggest reason not to use the train is that mostly that it's so slow - Colne to Preston is 30 miles by motorway, it takes the train 70 minutes. Even for the relatively congested city of Manchester I would think of the travel options in this order: 1) drive 2) drive to a Metrolink stop 3) train. And then I know people who would put bus before train because it's cheaper.

Very unhelpfully, I would say the train would be improved it it were faster and cheaper. Obviously the two don't go together. For commuting, 1tph feels too unreliable - one cancellation means running to the car, which is a waste of a period ticket even if you still get there in time.

 

[Jozhua]

And then I know people who would put bus before train because it's cheaper.

Very unhelpfully, I would say the train would be improved it it were faster and cheaper.

Funnily enough, I always take the train because I find buses too expensive! They seem to be driving themselves to extinction in Manchester, increasing the prices as demand goes down.

Obviously Manchester based infrastructure improvements on the Castlefield corridor would be a good start, but beyond that it's complicated. I think the new trains and bolton electrification are helping. Ultimately, having a reliable service run is probably the most important thing right now and Northern seem to be doing a much better job of it than they were earlier in the year!

Their hands are tied in regards to the fact they already recieve large subsidies, so realistically there's not much more they can do now than they are doing.

If I was to be super speculative though:
- Manchester to Leeds electrification.
- Oxenholme to Windemere electrification.
- Bi modes for lines with lots of under the wire running, where full electrification wouldn't make much economic sense.
- Small alignment/signaling/intersection improvements to try and keep average speeds high on routes where the train takes considerably longer.
-Improve facilities at Victoria. Don't believe there is even toilets behind the ticket barriers.

Electrification could prove quite beneficial to the franchise on busier routes, especially where shared with other operators as it provides an improved passenger experience, faster service and lower fuel/maintenance costs.

 

[yorksrob]

Capacity is the main one that I keep banging on about.

But also, for some longer routes such as Leeds to Lancaster, it would be nice to be able to get a cup of tea.

 

[Mogster]

As a regular Wigan to Manchester Castlefield commuter :

Capacity, more 195s.
New stock, more 195s.
Frequency, more 195s
Reliability, 15&16
Speed, more 195s
Speed, 15&16, signaling upgrades.
Speed, Atherton line 75mph upgrade.
Speed, Chat Moss 100mph upgrade.

None of this is cheap...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Electrification would be best, but I'd suggest along the lines of the successful upgrade of the Snow Hill lines in Birmingham that Class 195s would, particularly if coupled with driver door release and ASDO (which saves about 5 seconds per stop), knock a good amount of time off running times on stopping services like the CLC and so provide a good improvement that way. Full guarded operation of Pacers is glacial.

 

[700007]

Just get an uber

Uber is seen as a growing threat to the transport industry particularly in metropolitan areas. We should be fighting against their rise in favour of our country's bus and rail networks growing. Definitely wouldn't advise that.

I do agree though, Last Mile needs to be an issue that is better addressed nationally, particularly just outside of city centres and rural towns.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Uber is seen as a growing threat to the transport industry particularly in metropolitan areas. We should be fighting against their rise in favour of our country's bus and rail networks growing. Definitely wouldn't advise that.

Like cars the taxi, private hire and Uber are both a threat and an opportunity. The question is how to make them a useful opportunity. To me, in some areas a "book a zonal flat fare taxi with your train ticket" concept would have real value - few places more so than when arriving on late-in-the-day trains at places like Oxenholme and Windermere, where arriving late at night with luggage means you'll have trouble getting to your hotel and so you drive.

Even as Uber they probably threaten short distance public transport (buses etc) but may make people take train journeys they wouldn't otherwise take because they know they'll be able to get the last bit of their journey and they know how much it will cost.

Most notably, the dastardly Germans have known this for years. In Hamburg in the 1990s it was well publicised that the driver of any night bus could radio for a taxi to meet you at the stop of your choice for the last bit of your journey (though at full taxi price).

 

[d9009alycidon]

This is certainly unhelpful, and is the kind of thing regular railway users will be oblivious to without the inside knowledge people like us have.

Thinking more strategically long-term about what could improve public transport use, I am a remote worker the opposite side of the M25 to the majority of my company's customer base. Where we have customers close to stations, I'm more than happy to get the train into London then out to the relevant location the other side. I can work while I'm on the train, I can't while I'm sat in traffic on the M25 for 2 hours. The problem comes from clients that aren't near to stations where travelling to them by rail would mean a 10 minute bus journey on a bus that only runs once an hour, or an 80 minute walk, each way. Neither of these options are really appropriate. What if the train is delayed and I just miss the bus? Another hour of working time lost. Buses also frequently don't turn up, and there's no delay repay there. That said, it seems very wasteful to drive all the way down to that local area, otherwise unnecessarily, just because of the transit options available for the last couple of miles. Cycling is one potential option but bikes on trains is a bit iffy and cycling itself is pretty lethal in a lot of places, also not appropriate if you're carrying equipment with you. More thought needs to go into integrating with 'last mile' options. As it stands, I will take the train whenever it's remotely viable but even here in the southeast, I'm now doing 12000 miles a year by road and only 2000 by rail. There must be a huge quantity of people up north who have this predicament, even before you consider the potential issues of crowded trains, unpleasant rolling stock, service reliability, interchange times and so on.

Edit: I haven't forgotten about taxis, but if you don't know the area, knowing a reputable company can also be a bit of guesswork. Booking at the right time for your train can also sometimes be a bit risky, again if you're delayed, or if the mobile coverage is patchy while en route. Most stations do not have unbooked cars waiting.

I can agree with the above, we are being encouraged by our company to "think green" when travelling and avoid air travel, and I always jump at the chance of using the train instead of the plane. I do however have a similar obstacles in that most of my suppliers have warehouses or factories in out of town industrial estates that are poorly served even by local buses. The traditional option has been to fly to the nearest airport and pick up a hire car, as every airport has a car hire facility, but this option is rarely available to rail travelers. My options are limited to getting the train to somewhere like Manchester Airport or Birmingham International and nipping into the air terminal to pick up a car. Back in the 1970s(?) some mainline stations had a car hire office but this seems to have been discontinued, probably because there is not the space to keep a pool of cars close to stations in built up areas. Could the out of town "park and ride" not be given a hire car facility, these stations normally have plenty of spare ground that the hire cars could be stored in.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can agree with the above, we are being encouraged by our company to "think green" when travelling and avoid air travel, and I always jump at the chance of using the train instead of the plane. I do however have a similar obstacles in that most of my suppliers have warehouses or factories in out of town industrial estates that are poorly served even by local buses. The traditional option has been to fly to the nearest airport and pick up a hire car, as every airport has a car hire facility, but this option is rarely available to rail travelers. My options are limited to getting the train to somewhere like Manchester Airport or Birmingham International and nipping into the air terminal to pick up a car. Back in the 1970s(?) some mainline stations had a car hire office but this seems to have been discontinued, probably because there is not the space to keep a pool of cars close to stations in built up areas. Could the out of town "park and ride" not be given a hire car facility, these stations normally have plenty of spare ground that the hire cars could be stored in.

Interestingly there is a car hire place right outside Bletchley station, though you'd not know until you walked out of the station exit. It's just there because it was a convenient piece of land for it, I suspect.

Integrating car clubs (ideally for electric cars) with rail travel would be another win where the bus doesn't suit. What if you could book your car online as a simple "tick the box" option when booking your ticket? SBB already do this.

 

[yorksrob]

I can agree with the above, we are being encouraged by our company to "think green" when travelling and avoid air travel, and I always jump at the chance of using the train instead of the plane. I do however have a similar obstacles in that most of my suppliers have warehouses or factories in out of town industrial estates that are poorly served even by local buses. The traditional option has been to fly to the nearest airport and pick up a hire car, as every airport has a car hire facility, but this option is rarely available to rail travelers. My options are limited to getting the train to somewhere like Manchester Airport or Birmingham International and nipping into the air terminal to pick up a car. Back in the 1970s(?) some mainline stations had a car hire office but this seems to have been discontinued, probably because there is not the space to keep a pool of cars close to stations in built up areas. Could the out of town "park and ride" not be given a hire car facility, these stations normally have plenty of spare ground that the hire cars could be stored in.

At the risk of taking the thread on quite a dull course, Truro manages to still have one, although I'm not sure where they keep the cars.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Quickest, simplest and cheapest would be to improve the passenger experience.

We often forget that although new and refurbished trains are great if we want to get more and more people using rail transport, then the whole journey from start to finish needs to be improved.

Quite frankly catching the train is off putting if you have to stand in the pouring rain to wait for it, because either they're is no waiting shelter or that it is full because it has inadequate capacity.

Is it any wonder so many people travel by car ?

Such facilities should really come close to matching station usage. No necessarily heated waiting rooms, canopies would suffice with sufficient seating. Ideally a bench along the length of it like at Knaresborough.

 

[Clip]

That's the solution we're recommending to everybody is it?

No - it was the solution i was recommending to you in the scenario that you described which would suit you perfectly as you dont like the bus

Not outside of your metropolitan elite areas!

The scenario described was within this Elite?? Mentropolitan area - elsewhere they are called Taxis or Cabs - please look out for them in non metropolitan areas - they are very helpful.

Uber is seen as a growing threat to the transport industry particularly in metropolitan areas. We should be fighting against their rise in favour of our country's bus and rail networks growing. Definitely wouldn't advise that.
.

Uber/Black Cabs/Taxis/Private Hire whatever you want to call them have been around for decades so stop trying to think they are going to take over the world anytime soon please - the hysteria isnt needed

 

[ScotTrains]

I'd like to see Northern reintroduce first class on their trains.
I have always travelled first class to Windermere or Barrow when TPEx ran these services.

Living in Scotland I'm used to the local operator, ScotRail, conveying basic first class (with catering) on services between all 7 Scottish cities, with several intercity operators providing an enhanced first class service between most of these cities too.

South of the border, It seems strange not to have first class on certain key Northern routes eg Newcastle to Carlisle, Leeds to Carlisle, Manchester to the lake District etc.

I'd also like to see much more catering provided on key routes too.

 

[YorkshireBear]

In response to the first post I saw the most wonderful example of trains connecting I have ever seen this year in Germany.

The albellio rail network which takes in local DMU services in the Saxony Anhalt region. All the trains arrive almost simultaneously (within 5 minutes) at Halberstadt crew changes are undertaken and then all the trains depart within 5 minutes of each other after a short break. You can change trains from any one of the branches to any one of the other ones on an hourly pattern that runs all day. To stand there and watch it is magnificent, it also includes several joining and splitting operations!

I can think of a few places where the timetable could work like this, i appreciate this is an idealised example but demonstrates the point that connections are absolutely vital to me especially in semi rural networks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In response to the first post I saw the most wonderful example of trains connecting I have ever seen this year in Germany.

The albellio rail network which takes in local DMU services in the Saxony Anhalt region. All the trains arrive almost simultaneously (within 5 minutes) at Halberstadt crew changes are undertaken and then all the trains depart within 5 minutes of each other after a short break. You can change trains from any one of the branches to any one of the other ones on an hourly pattern that runs all day. To stand there and watch it is magnificent, it also includes several joining and splitting operations!

I can think of a few places where the timetable could work like this, i appreciate this is an idealised example but demonstrates the point that connections are absolutely vital to me especially in semi rural networks.

This is the Swiss model and the precision and coordinated nature of it almost makes one's hair stand on end when observing it. It would be well-suited to quite a number of Northern routes, but would require station work to make it possible. That station work isn't necessarily big stuff, as I've noted, though - two operational platforms could be added to Preston at a relatively low cost, for instance - both have been used relatively recently for passenger purposes.

But first of all idiocy like the Ormskirk to Blackpool South "connection" needs fixing. That just shows how Northern simply don't care about anything other than a collection of totally independent routes - a bit like a classic bus company. Fixing it would require nothing other than changing the public timetable to show it as a through service.

 

[Kingspanner]

Up in here in the North East we would benefit from (obviously) replacing Pacers, but an obvious aid to everyone's timekeeping and capacity around Darlington would be a solution to Saltburn trains having to cross the ECML to and from Darlington station. I dream of a grade separated crossing costing £47Million like that nice one at Hitchin. Which as we know is in the south.

 

[AM9]

In response to the first post I saw the most wonderful example of trains connecting I have ever seen this year in Germany.

The albellio rail network which takes in local DMU services in the Saxony Anhalt region. All the trains arrive almost simultaneously (within 5 minutes) at Halberstadt crew changes are undertaken and then all the trains depart within 5 minutes of each other after a short break. You can change trains from any one of the branches to any one of the other ones on an hourly pattern that runs all day. To stand there and watch it is magnificent, it also includes several joining and splitting operations!

I can think of a few places where the timetable could work like this, i appreciate this is an idealised example but demonstrates the point that connections are absolutely vital to me especially in semi rural networks.

But in Germany (and across mainland Europe generally), junction stations tend to have more platforms making simultaneous presence of connecting trains much easier. Much of the land occupied by platforms and tracks on the UK network has been progressively wittled down to the bare minimum so that every scrap of land that wasn't (in the slack periods since nationalisation) absolutely necessary, has been flogged-off to property speculators. The timetabling may be very slick when playing musical trains on a two platform mainline station with a branch line off, but it doesn't provide a particularly passenger-friendly interchange experience.