How could Northern Rail be improved?

[yorksrob]

I read in 'Rail' that there are currently 3 153's in storage, with a further five on their way from Anglia.

Snapping up these to create more 3 carriage sprinters would be a dood, achievable step for Northern.

 

[Harvey B]

I read in 'Rail' that there are currently 3 153's in storage, with a further five on their way from Anglia.

Snapping up these to create more 3 carriage sprinters would be a good, achievable step for Northern.

100% agree, hopefully they reclassify them as 155's if they do that. This will also solve Northern's short forming issue

 

[AM9]

... I dream of a grade separated crossing costing £47Million like that nice one at Hitchin. Which as we know is in the south.

Another pointless comment. Comparing the traffic through Darlington to that through Hitchin:
In a typical off-peak hour Darlington sees:

a total of 18 trains of which 3 are to Saltburn, and 15 are through trains​

If the grade separation at Hitchin wasn't there, there would be:

a total of 33 trains of which 7 heading to Cambridge/Ely would have to cross the fast D/U and Slow/U lines carrying 26 trains.​

Hardly even a relevant snipe at South v North differences.
When Northern can get enough passengers to require that many trains that the junction just can't function without grade separation, the funding will be justified.

 

[Bletchleyite]

100% agree, hopefully they reclassify them as 155's if they do that. This will also solve Northern's short forming issue

Probably easier to remove the bog (perhaps convert it to more bike space) and couple to the end of a 156.

 

[Harvey B]

Probably easier to remove the bog (perhaps convert it to more bike space) and couple to the end of a 156.

Wasn't/isn't that whats rumoured to happen with some of them anyway

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wasn't/isn't that whats rumoured to happen with some of them anyway

In Scotland, yes.

 

[Harvey B]

In Scotland, yes.

Thanks, I hope something similar happens with Northerns units

 

[Halifaxlad]

I'd also like to see much more catering provided on key routes too.

Love to see more catering trolleys especially on the Calder Valley although it would have to have offerings at decent prices not explotive with cans of pop at double the typical rate!

 

[Harvey B]

Unfortunately some of the issues will rely on Network Rail.

*cough cough* Platforms 15 and 16 at Manchester piccadiliy *cough cough*
Seriously That's not the only issue either but other TOC's are also to blame of their trains are broken down and a Northern service is held up behind it which can also cause conductors and drivers to show up late to their next service.
But somehow these delays always get blamed on Northern and then commuters also seem to get mad at Northern for stopping at a red signal when really it's not their fault that one of their trains are held up at a red signal to wait for the next block of track to come available so no matter if the short forming issue is resolved by ordering more trains, there'll still be other problems that won't be resolved (e.g: late running trains having to be held up by a broken down transpennine service) and commuters will most likely still complain about being held up because of broken down train from another TOC which causes more people to complain about the lateness of drivers because they are driving that service that's held up. In short there will still be people wanting rid of Arriva as the franchise operator for Northern whether they improve services or not (and probably removing Arriva won't fix things)

 

[northernchris]

I think removing Arriva will improve nothing. Although a strict regime like Scotrail have (SQUIRE?) may help with some tangible improvements such as seat cleanliness and quicker repairs to station faults.

There's also other quick wins that could bring benefits, for example on key corridors remove train information from departure boards a couple of minutes before scheduled time to prevent last minute passengers delaying departure and causing a ripple effect

 

[6Gman]

Funnily enough, I always take the train because I find buses too expensive! They seem to be driving themselves to extinction in Manchester, increasing the prices as demand goes down.

First Group perhaps; Stagecoach seem to be doing pretty well.

 

[6Gman]

*cough cough* Platforms 15 and 16 at Manchester piccadiliy *cough cough*
Seriously That's not the only issue either but other TOC's are also to blame of their trains are broken down and a Northern service is held up behind it which can also cause conductors and drivers to show up late to their next service.
But somehow these delays always get blamed on Northern and then commuters also seem to get mad at Northern for stopping at a red signal when really it's not their fault that one of their trains are held up at a red signal to wait for the next block of track to come available so no matter if the short forming issue is resolved by ordering more trains, there'll still be other problems that won't be resolved (e.g: late running trains having to be held up by a broken down transpennine service) and commuters will most likely still complain about being held up because of broken down train from another TOC which causes more people to complain about the lateness of drivers because they are driving that service that's held up. In short there will still be people wanting rid of Arriva as the franchise operator for Northern whether they improve services or not (and probably removing Arriva won't fix things)

This is true, of course, but dwell times are also extended by short formations - it can take an age for a Full & Standing 156 to unload and then reload at e.g. Platform 14 at Piccadilly. And if the scheduled dwell is extended by two minutes it has a knock-on; especially if it's happening three or four times in half an hour.

 

[30907]

But in Germany (and across mainland Europe generally), junction stations tend to have more platforms making simultaneous presence of connecting trains much easier. Much of the land occupied by platforms and tracks on the UK network has been progressively wittled down to the bare minimum so that every scrap of land that wasn't (in the slack periods since nationalisation) absolutely necessary, has been flogged-off to property speculators. The timetabling may be very slick when playing musical trains on a two platform mainline station with a branch line off, but it doesn't provide a particularly passenger-friendly interchange experience.

Halberstadt is a wonderful example: the rationalised layout has:
5 through platforms, 1 bay, 1 goods loop - and just 5-6 departures per hour!
Such generous provision has always been typical of Germany, and I can't think of any comparable British station: Preston has 7 routes, 7 through platforms, 1 bay, but rather more trains!

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is true, of course, but dwell times are also extended by short formations - it can take an age for a Full & Standing 156 to unload and then reload at e.g. Platform 14 at Piccadilly. And if the scheduled dwell is extended by two minutes it has a knock-on; especially if it's happening three or four times in half an hour.

Yes, I noticed boarding and alighting on a 2-car EMT (that wasn't even overcrowded) at P14 earlier took about 3-4 minutes, during which time it was getting later and later, and of course blocking Castlefield for everything else.

 

[Jozhua]

First Group perhaps; Stagecoach seem to be doing pretty well.

Unfortunately, I live in the North of the city, where Stagecoach seem to be less prevalent. By far the easiest way for me into the city centre is my local bus service, however it costs £2.50 each way, which is a lot to stomach for such a small journey. Therefore, I end up walking or going further to the train station and getting the train, which is by far the cheapest option. I wonder how much pressure is put on Manchester's rail network by people travelling within Greater Manchester, such as myself, instead of making use of buses. I can definitely see how my usage takes up space that could be used for extra long distance passengers, day in rush hour, but the train offers the best value, so until the buses don't cost me £5 to do a three or so mile round trip, I'll probably keep using it.

*Edit, bus prices have gone up again...just correcting for that!

 

[samuelmorris]

Unfortunately, I live in the North of the city, where Stagecoach seem to be less prevalent. By far the easiest way for me into the city centre is my local bus service, however it costs £2.50 each way, which is a lot to stomach for such a small journey. Therefore, I end up walking or going further to the train station and getting the train, which is by far the cheapest option. I wonder how much pressure is put on Manchester's rail network by people travelling within Greater Manchester, such as myself, instead of making use of buses. I can definitely see how my usage takes up space that could be used for extra long distance passengers, day in rush hour, but the train offers the best value, so until the buses don't cost me £5 to do a three or so mile round trip, I'll probably keep using it.

*Edit, bus prices have gone up again...just correcting for that!

Yeah my local bus into town is £3 now I think, which for 1.5 miles is a bit much. I remember when as a schoolboy it was 55p...

 

[Harvey B]

This is true, of course, but dwell times are also extended by short formations - it can take an age for a Full & Standing 156 to unload and then reload at e.g. Platform 14 at Piccadilly. And if the scheduled dwell is extended by two minutes it has a knock-on; especially if it's happening three or four times in half an hour.

100% agreeing with you, short fotming is an issue which needs to be resolved. The likely option is to order more civity units, convert more 319s into 769s so Northern has bi modes to cover services anywhere on their lines and send them on lines that need an extra service during peak hours (even though they haven't entered service yet) / order more trains of any other type (whether thats second hand units and new build units that haven't been thought of yet).

Also if the rumour about the 323s staying is true I think that they should keep hold of some 319s for extra peak routes mainly to cover for the shortage of EMU's and to also allow the 323s ti work in multiple

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also if the rumour about the 323s staying is true I think that they should keep hold of some 319s for extra peak routes mainly to cover for the shortage of EMU's and to also allow the 323s ti work in multiple

I think if the 323s stay then they'll also get the West Midlands ones, giving a reasonable increase in numbers.

 

[E100]

Obviously platforms 15 and 16 are needed and would help a lot.

At risk of sounding like a broken record. Some 185's/170's are due to go off lease if I'm not mistaken. Surely replacing some 150's through displacing 156's with these centred are a particular area e.g. York / Newcastle (cough cough). These would be ideal and (185's) better than the 158's for any ECML running sections and could include the Tyne valley. A much cheaper option to ordering more 195's surely.

 

[Ianno87]

Another pointless comment. Comparing the traffic through Darlington to that through Hitchin:
In a typical off-peak hour Darlington sees:

a total of 18 trains of which 3 are to Saltburn, and 15 are through trains​

If the grade separation at Hitchin wasn't there, there would be:

a total of 33 trains of which 7 heading to Cambridge/Ely would have to cross the fast D/U and Slow/U lines carrying 26 trains.​

Hardly even a relevant snipe at South v North differences.
When Northern can get enough passengers to require that many trains that the junction just can't function without grade separation, the funding will be justified.

There are quicker and cheaper wins at Darlo before going for something like grade separation - such as a platform (with Middlesbrough bay) on the Up Main line to save crossing moves in the first place.

 

[Harvey B]

I think if the 323s stay then they'll also get the West Midlands ones, giving a reasonable increase in numbers.

I agree

 

[Harvey B]

Obviously platforms 15 and 16 are needed and would help a lot.

At risk of sounding like a broken record. Some 185's/170's are due to go off lease if I'm not mistaken. Surely replacing some 150's through displacing 156's with these centred are a particular area e.g. York / Newcastle (cough cough). These would be ideal and (185's) better than the 158's for any ECML running sections and could include the Tyne valley. A much cheaper option to ordering more 195's surely.

I've wanted to Northern to get some 185s long term and I hope they do

 

[43096]

I read in 'Rail' that there are currently 3 153's in storage, with a further five on their way from Anglia.

Snapping up these to create more 3 carriage sprinters would be a dood, achievable step for Northern.

What are these three in storage? I can only think of the ScotRail three at Kilmarnock for conversion - which were used by Northern to increase capacity after leaving GWR and before going north of the border.

 

[yorksrob]

What are these three in storage? I can only think of the ScotRail three at Kilmarnock for conversion - which were used by Northern to increase capacity after leaving GWR and before going north of the border.

Unfortunately, the article didn't go into that much detail.

 

[43096]

Unfortunately, the article didn't go into that much detail.

What else do you expect from Rail?!

 

[Puffing Devil]

This was the exchange:

Just get an uber

Not outside of your metropolitan elite areas!

If you meant Taxi or Private Hire, you should say so. Uber is a very different beast.

The scenario described was within this Elite?? Mentropolitan area - elsewhere they are called Taxis or Cabs - please look out for them in non metropolitan areas - they are very helpful.

Uber/Black Cabs/Taxis/Private Hire whatever you want to call them have been around for decades so stop trying to think they are going to take over the world anytime soon please - the hysteria isnt needed

If you we're clear in the first place, there would be no need for the sarcastic follow-up.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

One thing that needs to be improved is cleanliness of trains. I've just ridden 150203 from Mirfield to Batley and pretty much every seat is filthy, with only the ones around the toilet looking barely usable.

Part of this is down to certain people just being a bit scratty and not cleaning up after themselves, and there's little Northern can do about that. Though Northern seem very keen with issuing penalty fares, perhaps a system of fixed penalty notices for leaving trains in a state would go some way to "re-educate" those who need it...

That aside, providing more and bigger bins (and emptying them regularly) would go a long way.

 

[Kingspanner]

Another pointless comment. Comparing the traffic through Darlington to that through Hitchin:
In a typical off-peak hour Darlington sees:

a total of 18 trains of which 3 are to Saltburn, and 15 are through trains​

If the grade separation at Hitchin wasn't there, there would be:

a total of 33 trains of which 7 heading to Cambridge/Ely would have to cross the fast D/U and Slow/U lines carrying 26 trains.​

Hardly even a relevant snipe at South v North differences.
When Northern can get enough passengers to require that many trains that the junction just can't function without grade separation, the funding will be justified.

I did say I was dreaming. I have seen a local transport analysis that said that capacity between Darlington and Saltburn is constrained by paths across the ECML. Ianno87 is quite right about a Middlesbrough bay on the up side if Network Rail effectively rebuild Bank Top and passengers from Teessideare happy to change for Bishop Auckland.

 

[6Gman]

Uber/Black Cabs/Taxis/Private Hire whatever you want to call them have been around for decades so stop trying to think they are going to take over the world anytime soon please - the hysteria isnt needed

In the interests of accuracy (and I know people on this Forum value accuracy) it's not a case of "whatever you want to call them". There are significant legal differences between hackney carriages (commonly known as taxis) and private hire vehicles (commonly known - in London at least - as minicabs). I have never used Uber, but I believe it is essentially an app-based private hire vehicle operation.

Those legal differences affect their usefulness in providing a service to rail passengers, particularly those who do not have access to the internet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have never used Uber, but I believe it is essentially an app-based private hire vehicle operation.

Yes, that's what it is. In my local area it came in as a disruptor but the existing companies simply adopted app booking and retained the market (they are cheaper than Uber and there are more of them).

Those legal differences affect their usefulness in providing a service to rail passengers, particularly those who do not have access to the internet.

What proportion of rail passengers these days who are in the demographic that will be using taxis (being a rather expensive mode of transport) don't have a smartphone of any kind, I wonder?