RMT dispute on Merseyrail

[Bletchleyite]

Of the station, I assume you mean. Not the decision makers.

Yes, the station

 

[6Gman]

It's hardly the S&C.

In the 43 miles between Settle Jn and Appleby there are 3 crossings - all user-worked with gates.
In the 13 miles between Waterloo and Southport there are 14 crossings - a mixture of types.

I think the latter creates a greater risk of a front end collision incapacitating the driver.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the 43 miles between Settle Jn and Appleby there are 3 crossings - all user-worked with gates.
In the 13 miles between Waterloo and Southport there are 14 crossings - a mixture of types.

I think the latter creates a greater risk of a front end collision incapacitating the driver.

That wasn't what I was referring to, I was referring to most of the Merseyrail network being easily accessible by a rescue team by road relatively quickly.

 

[6Gman]

That wasn't what I was referring to, I was referring to most of the Merseyrail network being easily accessible by a rescue team by road relatively quickly.

Oh I realise that, but just wanted to highlight a consideration which I consider important.

(Partly as a family member was on a Merseyrail service which hit - and killed - someone at a crossing. The presence of the second member of staff was extremely helpful.)

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I have today received an online questionnaire from Merseyrail, wanting to know how I would prefer to buy tickets and why.

Is it being overly conspiratorial to think this might tie in with considering whether all stations need to be staffed?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have today received an online questionnaire from Merseyrail, wanting to know how I would prefer to buy tickets and why.

Is it being overly conspiratorial to think this might tie in with considering whether all stations need to be staffed?

It might well do. Please do put down that they need to get ToD at all stations, though, as ticket offices or no that needs fixing.

 

[B&I]

If you want a serious, balanced, discussion on politics, a Rail forum is not the best of places to start. Inevitably, you're also way off-topic !

If you want a serious, balanced, discussion on politics, a Rail forum is not the best of places to start. Inevitably, you're also way off-topic !

Bit pots and kettles after your comment on Labour. Not inclined to defend your favourite party's record in office ?

 

[Robertj21a]

Bit pots and kettles after your comment on Labour. Not inclined to defend your favourite party's record in office ?

I had replied to an earlier, biased, comment. I merely pointed out that this is not a place for a detailed discussion on politics. It still isn't.

 

[B&I]

I had replied to an earlier, biased, comment. I merely pointed out that this is not a place for a detailed discussion on politics. It still isn't.

So you're allowed to express your view on Labour's fiscal discipline, but suddenly it's no politics time whenever anyone wants to talk about the Tories' record in government ? Speaks volumes, that

 

[Robertj21a]

So you're allowed to express your view on Labour's fiscal discipline, but suddenly it's no politics time whenever anyone wants to talk about the Tories' record in government ? Speaks volumes, that

It may just be me but you're beginning to sound like you've got stuck in a groove and don't know how to get out. This is not a forum for politics - if you didn't understand that I'll say it again. This is not a forum for politics.

 

[B&I]

It may just be me but you're beginning to sound like you've got stuck in a groove and don't know how to get out. This is not a forum for politics - if you didn't understand that I'll say it again. This is not a forum for politics.

If you don't want people to mention the colossal incompetence, dishonesty and vindictiveness of the current government, don't bring politics into the discussion by expressing your views about other parties. Simple enough to understand, I would have thought

 

[urbophile]

This is beginning to sound like one of those Daily Mail inspired arguments about religion and politics. Of course you can't avoid bringing politics into a debate about railways because railways are shaped and ultimately governed by politicians.

 

[Class83]

This has all gone very quiet, has anyone heard any more about what is actually going to happen; DOO, DCO, 'revenue/customer service' guard on every train, ticket office closures etc?

 

[AntoniC]

This has all gone very quiet, has anyone heard any more about what is actually going to happen; DOO, DCO, 'revenue/customer service' guard on every train, ticket office closures etc?

Funny you should ask ...
I was talking to a friend of mine, who is a guard, on the way to work this morning.
I was advised that the RMT are making a decision on what to do in about two weeks time, and the guards will have to decide wether they want to stay on or take redundancy - my friend will take redundancy and is applying for jobs now.

 

[Skie]

This was posted on the 10th: https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/members...rd-and-introduction-of-doo--merseyrail100719/

The company will be tabling a dispatch procedure document which gives RMT members a safety critical role in the dispatch of the new class 777s (excluding door control) on the underground stations, with a possible extension to some overground stations, dependent on the outcome of the risk assessments.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This was posted on the 10th: https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/members...rd-and-introduction-of-doo--merseyrail100719/

This:

The company will be tabling a dispatch procedure document which gives RMT members a safety critical role in the dispatch of the new class 777s (excluding door control) on the underground stations, with a possible extension to some overground stations, dependent on the outcome of the risk assessments.

is particularly interesting. I wonder what that role might be. Might it be 10-bell dispatch? Or something like you get on some European railways (I think the PKP FLIRTs work like this) where the guard gives a signal to the driver which signifies "close up and depart" but not until the guard has done so?

 

[Skie]

I think it could be that they simply observe the bodyside cameras until the train leaves the platform, similar to how they have to gawk out of the (manky) cab side window on the current units.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it could be that they simply observe the bodyside cameras until the train leaves the platform, similar to how they have to gawk out of the (manky) cab side window on the current units.

If it is that, that could well provide a significant safety benefit over the current situation, where (unlike the old way of watching from the open cab door until the train left the platform with their hand close to the bell to stop the train if needed) it is very unlikely they will see any incident once they've closed their door.

 

[razor89]

Or something like you get on some European railways (I think the PKP FLIRTs work like this) where the guard gives a signal to the driver which signifies "close up and depart" but not until the guard has done so?

This is closest to what's been proposed.

 

[Goldfish62]

This is closest to what's been proposed.

From what I've observed Swiss railways operate like that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From what I've observed Swiss railways operate like that.

Some of the narrow gauge ones do but the mainlines don't, it's full guard operation except where it's DOO.

 

[Goldfish62]

Some of the narrow gauge ones do but the mainlines don't, it's full guard operation except where it's DOO.

Hmmm, on one of the InterCity services I was on the guard was working the train from the coach I was in and apart from giving a verbal signal to the driver through the intercom he had no apparent interaction with the departure procedure. None that I could see anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hmmm, on one of the InterCity services I was on the guard was working the train from the coach I was in and apart from giving a verbal signal to the driver through the intercom he had no apparent interaction with the departure procedure. None that I could see anyway.

He will have done the doors with a UIC key.

 

[pt_mad]

This:



is particularly interesting. I wonder what that role might be. Might it be 10-bell dispatch? Or something like you get on some European railways (I think the PKP FLIRTs work like this) where the guard gives a signal to the driver which signifies "close up and depart" but not until the guard has done so?

Who would be the overall person in charge of dispatch at stations where a method like that was used? Would the driver still observe the monitors anyway?

 

[M28361M]

Here we go again... (Source: https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-confirms-new-strike-dates-in-merseyrail-guards-dispute/)

RAIL UNION RMT today confirmed a new batch of strike dates in the long-running guards’ and safety dispute on Merseyrail as the company has failed to deliver on the crucial issue of a safe method of train dispatch.

As a result, the union’s executive believes that at this stage we have no alternative but to instruct our Merseyrail members not to book on for duty on the following dates:

Saturday 24th August 00.01-23.59 hrs

Tuesday 3rd September 00.01-23.59 hrs

Thursday 5th September 00.01-23.59 hrs

Monday 30th September 00.01-23.59 hrs

Wednesday 2nd October 00.01-23.59 hrs

Friday 4th October 00.01-23.59 hrs‎

RMT General Secretary, Mick Cash said:

“After 15 months of difficult negotiations with Merseyrail at ACAS we have reached a point where our members feel so strongly that the proposed method of dispatch for the new trains is a less safe option that they are prepared to go back to the picket lines and demand an operational role that applies to all Merseyrail stations that the new trains call at.

“Crucially the train drivers take the same view that the Guard should be responsible for the safe dispatch of the train as they are now. It is these very Guards and Drivers that operate the trains day in and day out and if they are saying that they can’t accept the proposed method of operation then they must be listened to.”

Does anyone know, was this anywhere near being settled, or are the sides just as far apart as they were 15 months ago? Some of the posts above indicate that Merseyrail had tabled an offer, was it close to what the guards want?

Between this and the rumoured problems with the 777s being too long for some stations, I'm starting to wonder if the new trains are more trouble than they're worth!

 

[AntoniC]

Here we go again... (Source: https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-confirms-new-strike-dates-in-merseyrail-guards-dispute/)



Does anyone know, was this anywhere near being settled, or are the sides just as far apart as they were 15 months ago? Some of the posts above indicate that Merseyrail had tabled an offer, was it close to what the guards want?

Between this and the rumoured problems with the 777s being too long for some stations, I'm starting to wonder if the new trains are more trouble than they're worth!

Next time I see a friendly guard I will ask..

 

[Carlisle]

Appears as regular informed posters have commented on here in the recent past , RMT keep moving the goalposts, entering ACAS talks agreeing to show flexibility on dispatch and then slowly edging back to the status quo during the process, finally threatening further strikes if the company doesn’t capitulate.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yes, the previous agreement reached 15 months ago was that there would be a guarantee of a guard on every train (at massive extra cost to Merseyrail passengers) in return for accepting Driver controlling doors (subject to the usual safety reviews). They are now demanding that it be codified that Guards are responsible for doors at every Merseyrail controlled station (weirdly they aren't making the same demand for non-Merseyrail controlled stations that the trains call at).

 

[joke2711]

Deep Joy ...

Further strike dates announced;

Saturday 24th August
Tuesday 3rd September
Thursday 5th September
Monday 30th September
Wednesday 2nd October
Friday 4th October

 

[OL-3944]

From what I’m led to believe from a friend who’s a guard. Not withstanding the finer details regarding dispatch a major issue is the insistence of the company having the Guards doing penalty fares.

As you know penalty fares are currently done by Revenue/Byelaw officers in groups of 3-4 all wearing body cameras etc. The guards would be working on there own and not wearing body cameras.

Within the ACAS agreement the company has insisted that after a set period the new role is to be evaluated. In short if assaults are thru the roof the grade will go. If not enough penalty fares are being issued the grade will go.

The RMT have requested repeatedly for guards to sell tickets in lieu of penalty fares which the company have refused. The general feeling is that there being set up to fail.