RMT dispute on Merseyrail

[InOban]

The report highlighted the cost. How much can be recouped by reduced fare evasion, or increased travel because of greater perceived security, that remains to be seen. What has to be made clear is that the cost has come from within the system. There is no other source.

 

[Starmill]

The undoubted increase in fare dodging and the staff then needed to occasionally counter that.

How would removing the non-commercial Merseyrail guards result in an increase in fare evasion? The guards can't sell tickets...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Revenue protection doesn't have to done on trains.

And isn't done on Merseyrail trains. The present guards are non-revenue guards, which to me are somewhat of a waste of money - either get them doing revenue, or get rid.

If they are retained, I would suggest they should become revenue guards, like those on Northern, and recoup some of their costs by doing tickets.

 

[Overspeed110]

Always cost, cost, cost.

Typical of the Tories, " who know the price of everything and the value of nothing".

Of whom I suspect there a lot on here.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Typical of the Tories, " who know the price of everything and the value of nothing".

My politics aren't really wholly represented by either of the present main parties. My view is that we should have quality public services and be willing to pay the going rate for them - but I abhor waste. Spend as you would spend it were it your own money is how I see public money should be spent, same as business expenses.

A non-revenue guard is, to me, bluntly, a waste of money on a network with nearly all stations staffed and nothing really in the middle of nowhere. As a passenger and taxpayer I do not wish to pay for someone whose job is to do something the driver could do while sitting idle at a station and then read the Mirror[1] in between doing so, and not a lot else except in extreme circumstances.

A guard with key parts of their role being revenue and passenger assistance[2] with driver release, guard close doors is to me on most of the network good value for money, and would be my preference for Northern. I could be convinced of this for Merseyrail.

[1] Not the Sun in Liverpool, of course.

[2] i.e. never in the back cab, unless either they have received or strongly suspect there to be a threat against them and so need to do so for personal safety, or need to be in the back cab for a specific operational purpose, in which case they should be there for that purpose and then leave it immediately on completion and return to patrolling the train.

 

[PermitToTravel]

or, as was common when London Overground had that rule, in the cab because the saloon is full and it frees up space for another passenger

 

[Bletchleyite]

or, as was common when London Overground had that rule, in the cab because the saloon is full and it frees up space for another passenger

Ah yes, missed that one - where the train is so crowded that it would be impossible for them to carry out the additional duties to any useful extent. Which on Merseyrail isn't *that* often, and will be even less often when the slightly larger new trains start operating.

 

[Eccles1983]

I don't know what you think a driver does at stations but sitting idly isn't one of them.

Checking diagram for stopping patterns, ensuring the signal is off, listening for the tell tale signs of trouble, having a quick drink or pulling the cloth from ones cheeks due to the poor design of a driving seat.

Frankly, and unsurprisingly this forum never fails to try to degrade a profession many have tried and failed at. The few brief moments in between the train stopping and the door closing can be the only time I am certain of not causing an incident.

 

[Clip]

or, as was common when London Overground had that rule, in the cab because the saloon is full and it frees up space for another passenger

They didnt last long either.

 

[pemma]

Always cost, cost, cost.

Typical of the Tories, " who know the price of everything and the value of nothing".

Of whom I suspect there a lot on here.

Remember it was a Labour combined authority who decided guards were unaffordable and unnecessary if they got new trains and both Andy Burnham and Steve Rotheram both said DOO is justifiable on local metro services but not long distance services in response to the Northern DOO dispute.

 

[Robertj21a]

Always cost, cost, cost.

Typical of the Tories, " who know the price of everything and the value of nothing".

Of whom I suspect there a lot on here.

As against the traditional Labour view of Spend Spend Spend, someone else will pay or we can just increase taxes ???

 

[74A]

A guard with key parts of their role being revenue and passenger assistance[2] with driver release, guard close doors is to me on most of the network good value for money, and would be my preference for Northern. I could be convinced of this for Merseyrail.

RMT have already accepted that drivers will close doors on Merseyrail. The performance benefits are too much to have a person hang in around on the platform checking the doors. So basically the guard will simply be there travelling up and down doing very little.

 

[robertclark125]

Incidentally, someone mentioned about the guards being in the back cab. What I do know is, on the underground sections, the guards MUST remain in the rear cab. I know this, as Merseyrail told me this.

 

[Goldfish62]

RMT have already accepted that drivers will close doors on Merseyrail.

They've also accepted it on GA and appear to be prepared to accept the principle on SWR's Class 701s.

 

[driver_m]

How would removing the non-commercial Merseyrail guards result in an increase in fare evasion? The guards can't sell tickets...

So when they're walking through checking tickets, (which I have witnessed virtually.all the time) they're not a deterrent to fraudulent travel? It's as if the pro-dooers on here want to clutch at anything to justify getting rid. They're a presence and as such will be a deterrent.

 

[LowLevel]

[2] i.e. never in the back cab, unless either they have received or strongly suspect there to be a threat against them and so need to do so for personal safety, or need to be in the back cab for a specific operational purpose, in which case they should be there for that purpose and then leave it immediately on completion and return to patrolling the train.

I still don't understand why this is such a thing. The back cab to the guard is no different to anyone else taking a quick comfort break. I'd challenge you to spend 7 hours on a moving train stood up without taking a quick sit down for a drink and a snack. That's what some of my shifts work out as. On our TOC the target is for every passenger to see the guard at least every 20 minutes or so. You don't have to walk up and down like a mindless automaton getting in the way to achieve that.

 

[driver_m]

Using our own Train Managers as an example . They don't have PNBs like we do, even though they're safety crit and have to get them when they can, some people on here wouldn't happy unless guards were getting a John Cleese style thrashing for daring to have a brew or a read of the paper. They're entitled to a rest.

 

[pemma]

I still don't understand why this is such a thing. The back cab to the guard is no different to anyone else taking a quick comfort break. I'd challenge you to spend 7 hours on a moving train stood up without taking a quick sit down for a drink and a snack. That's what some of my shifts work out as. On our TOC the target is for every passenger to see the guard at least every 20 minutes or so. You don't have to walk up and down like a mindless automaton getting in the way to achieve that.

Which wouldn't be a realistic target on Merseyrail where around half of passengers will be on the train for less than 20 minutes. If the guards went through the trains at the same points every day then some would never see a guard, so they would presume the driver was the only member of staff on board.

 

[Starmill]

So when they're walking through checking tickets, (which I have witnessed virtually.all the time) they're not a deterrent to fraudulent travel? It's as if the pro-dooers on here want to clutch at anything to justify getting rid. They're a presence and as such will be a deterrent.

I see the guard walking through the train on nearly every journey I make on Merseyrail. I have been asked for my ticket a grand total of once. They almost never check tickets. I actually wonder if it is even in their contract to. If they find somebody with an invalid ticket or no ticket, there is no legitimate way they can correct that situation.

 

[pemma]

I see the guard walking through the train on nearly every journey I make on Merseyrail. I have been asked for my ticket a grand total of once. They almost never check tickets. I actually wonder if it is even in their contract to. If they find somebody with an invalid ticket or no ticket, there is no legitimate way they can correct that situation.

Unless things have changed they usually open the doors from one position and then move on to the next one for the next station (excluding on the underground section or if there's someone requiring assistance) so on a 3 car train the guard walks the entire length of the train every 6 stations and has appeared in every carriage every 4 stations.

They also seem to just do doors and nothing else. They usually turn a blind eye to any poorly placed luggage or bikes.

 

[driver_m]

RMT have already accepted that drivers will close doors on Merseyrail. The performance benefits are too much to have a person hang in around on the platform checking the doors. So basically the guard will simply be there travelling up and down doing very little.

But ASLEF haven't. So the RMT (or I suspect, the posters on here) can't make that assumption that is the final plan. The performance can take a jump if it compromises the safety of passengers and puts the driver in the firing line of a prosecute happy CPS/BTP .

 

[urbophile]

nothing really in the middle of nowhere.

You've never been to Bidston then!

 

[Bletchleyite]

You've never been to Bidston then!

It might not be usefully located, but it is adjacent to a major road (no more than about 100-200m away). It's hardly the S&C.

 

[Bletchleyite]

RMT have already accepted that drivers will close doors on Merseyrail. The performance benefits are too much to have a person hang in around on the platform checking the doors. So basically the guard will simply be there travelling up and down doing very little.

Well, that remains to be seen. Depending on the revenue policy that is adopted, and whether the savings required are instead made by closing ticket offices at smaller stations or restricting opening to a single shift rather than the present full period of service, they may well find themselves selling tickets (why buy and maintain lots of expensive TVMs if you're paying guards to do not very much?). Though PF area to Paytrain is quite a shift in one go!

TBH, I actually think that being able to pay on board at smaller stations would be a fairly popular move, while simultaneously reducing evasion.

Using the Northern Line as an example, I'd be thinking of Aughton Park, Town Green, possibly either Old Roan or Aintree or even both, Walton and Kirkdale as possible targets for partial or in the former two cases full destaffing, should this be necessary to make guards affordable. I think Maghull (don't know about North, I've not yet been on a train that stopped there) and Orrell Park would likely be too busy, and Sandhills is too close to the city centre for there to be time to do tickets.

 

[B&I]

As ever it depends what take they want to sell.

7 million sounds exaggerated, I don't know how much having them saves for train faults etc, but that makes sense. As a passenger they definitely do make savings in reduced vandalism, allowing fares to be had from passengers who wouldn't travel by train if they weren't there, and less use of the police.

But as it all comes down to figures, here's two that Merseytravel use as boasts.

34 million passenger journeys a year. So that 7 million quid, ignoring the savings above, is 20p a journey on average. Sounds like a bargain to me.

Liverpool Central won some nonsense award after refurbishment that cost 20 million. 20 million and people still think it's an unpleasant dump.

It's more pleasant at concourse level. The Northern Line island platform remaims a dank, overcrowded accident in waiting

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's more pleasant at concourse level. The Northern Line island platform remaims a dank, overcrowded accident in waiting

I wouldn't call it pleasant at any level. It still has the typical Merseyrail feel of something that once was quite nice but has been allowed to deteriorate, particularly the toilets. But yes, the Northern Line island platform is nasty - too small, too overcrowded, leaky roof etc. The only way to solve that will be to rip it out and do it again - which is an opportunity while there isn't much on top.

 

[Overspeed110]

As against the traditional Labour view of Spend Spend Spend, someone else will pay or we can just increase taxes ???

So let's have a look at the state of this country then , after a good few years of Tory "government"

National debt? Don't make me laugh, exactly what were all Gideons cuts about?
Libraries, sure start centres, youth clubs, swimming baths closed closed closed, state of the roads, council cutbacks left right, centre, hospital waiting lists, cancelled operations, ongoing privatisation, dismantling, destaffing, demoralising of the NHS and it's staff, thanks to that tool Lansley (and the lib dems), schools closing, badly equipped, teachers leaving,not enough teachers, big class sizes, due to ideological crusade by that Muppet Gove, strikes on the railways, bus companies, the NHS, schools, oh but we've millions of "self employed" jobs now, yes all these new entrepreneurs earning nothing and paying even less tax. Zero hours jobs, minimum wage, tuition fees. Hatred and racism fuelled by Farage , Daily mail, Express, Sun, HM government etc. You couldn't make it up. Weak, pathetic, incompetent PM and don't even mention BREXIT
The list of failure ,u turns and general incompetence is mind blowing, and it goes on and on and on.

So yes we're in an absolutely fantastic position aren't we

 

[Robertj21a]

So let's have a look at the state of this country then , after a good few years of Tory "government"

National debt? Don't make me laugh, exactly what were all Gideons cuts about?
Libraries, sure start centres, youth clubs, swimming baths closed closed closed, state of the roads, council cutbacks left right, centre, hospital waiting lists, cancelled operations, ongoing privatisation, dismantling, destaffing, demoralising of the NHS and it's staff, thanks to that tool Lansley (and the lib dems), schools closing, badly equipped, teachers leaving,not enough teachers, big class sizes, due to ideological crusade by that Muppet Gove, strikes on the railways, bus companies, the NHS, schools, oh but we've millions of "self employed" jobs now, yes all these new entrepreneurs earning nothing and paying even less tax. Zero hours jobs, minimum wage, tuition fees. Hatred and racism fuelled by Farage , Daily mail, Express, Sun, HM government etc. You couldn't make it up. Weak, pathetic, incompetent PM and don't even mention BREXIT
The list of failure ,u turns and general incompetence is mind blowing, and it goes on and on and on.

So yes we're in an absolutely fantastic position aren't we

If you want a serious, balanced, discussion on politics, a Rail forum is not the best of places to start. Inevitably, you're also way off-topic !

 

[driver_m]

So let's have a look at the state of this country then , after a good few years of Tory "government"

National debt? Don't make me laugh, exactly what were all Gideons cuts about?
Libraries, sure start centres, youth clubs, swimming baths closed closed closed, state of the roads, council cutbacks left right, centre, hospital waiting lists, cancelled operations, ongoing privatisation, dismantling, destaffing, demoralising of the NHS and it's staff, thanks to that tool Lansley (and the lib dems), schools closing, badly equipped, teachers leaving,not enough teachers, big class sizes, due to ideological crusade by that Muppet Gove, strikes on the railways, bus companies, the NHS, schools, oh but we've millions of "self employed" jobs now, yes all these new entrepreneurs earning nothing and paying even less tax. Zero hours jobs, minimum wage, tuition fees. Hatred and racism fuelled by Farage , Daily mail, Express, Sun, HM government etc. You couldn't make it up. Weak, pathetic, incompetent PM and don't even mention BREXIT
The list of failure ,u turns and general incompetence is mind blowing, and it goes on and on and on.

So yes we're in an absolutely fantastic position aren't we

Someone will be along soon to call Jeremy Corbyn as a way of countering your arguement. Or saying Andy Burnham looks a bit shifty. Thatcher's govt IMO was evil, but it knew what it was doing. Unlike this collection of jokers, freaks and opportunists who could ln't run a bath without wrecking the plug first.

Anyway, back to Merseyrail, anyone consulted the drivers yet? This charade needs to be confronted and sorted out .just like on Northern.

 

[urbophile]

The only way to solve that will be to rip it out and do it again - which is an opportunity while there isn't much on top.

Of the station, I assume you mean. Not the decision makers.