EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[bramling]

Never seen the slightest evidence you are inclined to consider any remain arguments however they are phrased. Any time spent entertaining your proclivities on how arguments are made would seem to be wholly wasted tbh

I would *never* hold a totally rigid view on anything, there’s always got to be scope to consider new information, thoughts, ideas or whatever. Having said that, my own views on Brexit have formed over 30 years of child and adult life, and as yet I’ve not been anywhere close to being sufficiently persuaded to change them.

I’m ideologically opposed to the EU, however I would be open to remaining if the economic case was sufficiently strong. I’m unconvinced that it is, and am willing to take the risk.

With my age beginning with a 3, I’m not sure if I’m old enough or my skin is pink enough to count as a “gammon”...

 

[dgl]

You are indeed correct the Remain campaign was poor or maybe naive to the ease at which leading people up the garden path would be.

I'm afraid anything they would have done in the last three years wouldn't have worked. You can't sell the status quo, it's not sexy (neither are the band).

The cult of Brexit has a full church of believers and I believe we are in for a new country with new rules and beliefs. We are approaching a tipping point

Also remain might have actually thought that the British population were clever enough to make up their own minds and didn't need persuading that voting remain was the right thing to do, those big blue funded by the EU signs and the warnings of their employers on what the outcome of leaving would be should be enough right?

Also i would have hoped that the two world wars would also show what happens when the right come in and take power and start pushing a nationalist rhetoric. My gran lived through the Second World War and saw all the destruction and heartache it caused (she lived near London, was evacuated and worked in London after the war so saw all the devastation for herself) and as such is a staunch remainer and cannot see why anyone would vote otherwise.

 

[edwin_m]

The referendum was seen by some as an internal issue in the Tory party, which of course was one of the main reason for calling it, but Labour under Corbyn didn't campaign effectively and many voters may have seen it as somebody else's problem. The LibDems were pretty irrelevant at the time having been almost destroyed by their time in government (ironically if the Tories had still needed their support after 2015 the price would have included no referendum, and Cameron was probably counting on this when he promised one). Also a lot of people were angry at austerity and other Tory policies and saw the referendum as a way to kick the party in power - George Osborne probably deserves as much of the blame for Brexit as anyone, despite vehemently opposing it.

Also remain might have actually thought that the British population were clever enough to make up their own minds and didn't need persuading that voting remain was the right thing to do, those big blue funded by the EU signs and the warnings of their employers on what the outcome of leaving would be should be enough right?

Also i would have hoped that the two world wars would also show what happens when the right come in and take power and start pushing a nationalist rhetoric. My gran lived through the Second World War and saw all the destruction and heartache it caused (she lived near London, was evacuated and worked in London after the war so saw all the devastation for herself) and as such is a staunch remainer and cannot see why anyone would vote otherwise.

There's a difference of attitude to the EU between the UK and the Continent. Nearly every other member has occupied or been occupied by one of the others within living memory, and wars have taken place just beyond the EU's eastern boundary much more recently than that, so a lot of people see the EU with all its imperfections as a bulwark against that happening again. The Brexiter attitude seems to be the opposite, that the EU is a new version of the empires that have conquered Europe and it has been down to Britain to defeat them (with a bit of help from the Americans).

Pointing to the big blue signs and the EU funding was effectively neutralised by the fact that the UK put more cash into the EU than it got out. Whether the Westminster government would otherwise have spent the money on similar regional development projects is highly questionable, although that may now be part of the bundle of bungs that Boris is crowing about.

 

[Howardh]

I've just learned today that the European Tax Directive (the REAL reason we had the referendum, funny how leaving the EU wasn't even an issue before this directive was born) was left in the Withdrawl Agreement by May. The ERG in the Tory party will have noted that, and they very conveniently voted the WA down, claiming it's the "backstop" when, in reality, they probably couldn't give a fig about the "backstop". Now May's gone and the WA's dust, the ERG are happy.

We're selling our country down the river so a few "metropolitan elite" won't be having their tax affairs scrutinised? Thanks, all.

 

[VauxhallandI]

The contradictions and lies are before the eyes and yet the trenches get dug deeper. We are being run by the egos of blokes down the pub and steered by selfish self-serving maniacs

 

[Typhoon]

The contradictions and lies are before the eyes and yet the trenches get dug deeper. We are being run by the egos of blokes down the pub and steered by selfish self-serving maniacs

Oh, come on. Everyone, such as the likes of Jacob Rees-Mogg, Nigel Farage, Daniel Hannan and David Davies, is allowed to change their minds. Waaaiiit a minute, maybe not everyone, eh!

Oh, and Mr Raab, about the worst idlers, indeed there are some - what about the Foreign Secretary who was too idle to read through his notes on a dual national imprisoned abroad, the Brexit Secretary who turned up to crucial talks with a folder so thin it couldn't contain a supplement to the Daily Telegraph, and the International Trade Secretary who in three years has managed to sign trade deals with the Faroe Islands, Nicaragua, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Papua New Guinea, Zimbabwe (!), the Palestinian Authority (!!) and similar economic powerhouses.

 

[ainsworth74]

University Student Unions usually use transferable vote systems too.

My University Union elections included a candidate which I feel should be included in all elections. A bloke called RON which is short for Re-Open Nominations. No reason voters shouldn't have the option to say, effectively, "none of the above" rather than just having to spoil their ballots.

 

[bramling]

Also a lot of people were angry at austerity and other Tory policies and saw the referendum as a way to kick the party in power - George Osborne probably deserves as much of the blame for Brexit as anyone, despite vehemently opposing it.

I'm not convinced this stands up to scrutiny. We've had a so-called austerity agenda from 2010 onwards, albeit slightly (and only slightly) checked by the Liberal Democrats during the 2010-5 period. The Conservative vote share *increased* over the last three elections, from 36.1% in 2010 to 42.4% in 2017. To me this simply doesn't shout widespread dissatisfaction with austerity. Certainly my own leave vote had absolutely nothing to do with austerity.

There's a difference of attitude to the EU between the UK and the Continent. Nearly every other member has occupied or been occupied by one of the others within living memory, and wars have taken place just beyond the EU's eastern boundary much more recently than that, so a lot of people see the EU with all its imperfections as a bulwark against that happening again. The Brexiter attitude seems to be the opposite, that the EU is a new version of the empires that have conquered Europe and it has been down to Britain to defeat them (with a bit of help from the Americans).

Most of the rest of the world manages to survive quite happily outside the EU without descending into WW3. In any case, there's other mechanisms such as NATO. Again, the argument doesn't really hold up, as according to this argument one would expect those whose lives started nearer to WW2 to be pro-EU, yet it's very well documented here and elsewhere how older people are generally more likely to be anti.

 

[edwin_m]

I'm not convinced this stands up to scrutiny. We've had a so-called austerity agenda from 2010 onwards, albeit slightly (and only slightly) checked by the Liberal Democrats during the 2010-5 period. The Conservative vote share *increased* over the last three elections, from 36.1% in 2010 to 42.4% in 2017. To me this simply doesn't shout widespread dissatisfaction with austerity. Certainly my own leave vote had absolutely nothing to do with austerity.

That could just be that austerity was a successful tactic in energizing the Tory base vote - currently both main parties see this as their route to success. Most people affected by it would have voted for someone else, but under our electoral system their votes were wasted. The referendum was an opportunity to make themselves heard and give a kicking to the remote and smug Cameron goverment.

Most of the rest of the world manages to survive quite happily outside the EU without descending into WW3. In any case, there's other mechanisms such as NATO.

Non-EU Europe hasn't done very well at peace and democracy. Greece, Spain and Portugal were under military/fascist rule into the 1970s and the eastern states under communism until 1989. Since then we've had wars in Yugoslavia and Ukraine, plus violence in NATO member Turkey, all of which bordered the EU at the time, plus various Arab and ex-Soviet states not much further away. EU admission, which is conditional on having settled any border disputes, was and still is a powerful incentive for Eastern states.

 

[AM9]

... as according to this argument one would expect those whose lives started nearer to WW2 to be pro-EU, yet it's very well documented here and elsewhere older people are generally more likely to be anti.

Speaking as one whose life started nearer to WW2, I find that many of my contemporaries believe that leaving the EU will bring back the years when we 'never had it so good' (to coin a phrase). Days when we exported thousands of (mediocre) cars, when there was still a sprinkling of Commonwealth countries for us to exploit, and of course, immigrants (as in non-Caucasian people) knew their place. Those were the 'good old days' before the Common Market entered their lives. Hence some of the post referendum vox pops about voting to leave so that the p***s can be deported. Of course, not many of them had a worldly education in those days, - and boy do some of them make it obvious. Fortunately, there are quite a lot who don't fit that mould, and it is those who won't make the mistake of not voting in the next referendum or GE.

 

[Bantamzen]

I find similar with my friends and family. For the most part support for Brexit is much greater amongst the older generation, with their perception being that leaving the EU will be like some form of independence that will instantly reset the clock to somewhere between the 1950's and 1960's. As you move towards the younger generation, most seem to feel like Brexit is more of an act of cutting our nose to spite our face.

That's not to say there is a split entirely along generational lines, but I do generally get the impression that many older leavers think that Brexit is simply a reset button, and not a process that could well leave us in a way more detrimental position on a global stage than we were at in 1973.

 

[Typhoon]

My University Union elections included a candidate which I feel should be included in all elections. A bloke called RON which is short for Re-Open Nominations. No reason voters shouldn't have the option to say, effectively, "none of the above" rather than just having to spoil their ballots.

I was at Birmingham where they did the same. Might prevent a government deliberately offering us the options of 'bad' or 'worse'.

Unless some very strange rule was introduced, the first choice vote would be valid but wouldn't be transferred to any other if the first choice was eliminated. It's therefore probably best to vote for a second option however much you dislike it, as long as you dislike the remaining option more!

That is my understanding as well. Surely it is no different from multi-member council wards where your vote is not disqualified if you only vote for one candidate because 'your' party can only find more than one candidate * to put forward.

* - insert 'brave enough', 'egotistic enough' or 'stupid enough' as appropriate.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I find similar with my friends and family. For the most part support for Brexit is much greater amongst the older generation, with their perception being that leaving the EU will be like some form of independence that will instantly reset the clock to somewhere between the 1950's and 1960's. As you move towards the younger generation, most seem to feel like Brexit is more of an act of cutting our nose to spite our face.

That's not to say there is a split entirely along generational lines, but I do generally get the impression that many older leavers think that Brexit is simply a reset button, and not a process that could well leave us in a way more detrimental position on a global stage than we were at in 1973.

With my good lady wife (77) and I (74) being convinced remainers since Day 1, I am pleased to note that we are in the minority of the elder generation that you refer to above. Unlike those examples of that generation that you quote above, neither of us wish to return to the days of the 1950s and 1960s, but are quite happy to live in the 21st century.

 

[Justin Smith]

I heard that Boris Johnson is going to force through a no deal Brexit whilst effectively a caretaker PM (when he shouldn`t be enacting any controversial legislation), when there`s no majority in parliament, and, crucially, none in the country either. Even the most blinkered Brexiteer surely could not honestly say Leave would have won in 2016 (it was 52/48....) had the voters known there`d be no deal, and, just as important, I thought polls indicated that a no deal exit was way down in minority land now and has always been.

Why are Brexiteers such hypocrites ? And, more to the point, how do they get away with it ?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I heard that Boris Johnson is going to force through a no deal Brexit whilst effectively a caretaker PM (when he shouldn`t be enacting any controversial legislation), when there`s no majority in parliament, and, crucially, none in the country either.

Speaking from the remain side of the discussion, on the television earlier today, it was stated that in such a case as you quote, no controversial new matter should be enacted, but it was also said that as Brexit has been an on-going matter since the time of the result of the referendum and also said to be already enacted in law, it cannot be counted as a controversial new matter.

 

[Killingworth]

Why have Remainers no clear leader, nor likely to have one? There's no obvious candidate and that's a bigger obstacle than getting a delay from 31st October.

As it currently stands the "let's get it over" feelings of a very large number are likely to overcome remain in any second referendum, with no credible leadership if remain was to happen. We've endured decades of carping and the Faragist campaigns have ground the nation into submission.

 

[Howardh]

I heard that Boris Johnson is going to force through a no deal Brexit whilst effectively a caretaker PM (when he shouldn`t be enacting any controversial legislation), when there`s no majority in parliament, and, crucially, none in the country either. Even the most blinkered Brexiteer surely could not honestly say Leave would have won in 2016 (it was 52/48....) had the voters known there`d be no deal, and, just as important, I thought polls indicated that a no deal exit was way down in minority land now and has always been.

Why are Brexiteers such hypocrites ? And, more to the point, how do they get away with it ?

The government is currently being run by Cummings, an unelected bureaucrat.

What's the definition of hypocrisy again??

 

[edwin_m]

Why have Remainers no clear leader, nor likely to have one? There's no obvious candidate and that's a bigger obstacle than getting a delay from 31st October.

As it currently stands the "let's get it over" feelings of a very large number are likely to overcome remain in any second referendum, with no credible leadership if remain was to happen. We've endured decades of carping and the Faragist campaigns have ground the nation into submission.

Of course leaving isn't the end of it by a long chalk. There will be agreements and trade discussion, not to mention dodging the blame, for years if not decades.

As the government's policy of leaving is looking so disastrous, the natural figurehead for Remain would be the leader of the opposition. That ought to work out well...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The government is currently being run by Cummings, an unelected bureaucrat.

When were the Prime Ministerial duties were removed from Boris Johnson and does Cummings now head all Cabinet and Cobra meetings?

If what you say is true, Sir Humphrey indeed would feel that the Civil Service were in their correct role positions...

 

[DarloRich]

With my good lady wife (77) and I (74) being convinced remainers since Day 1, I am pleased to note that we are in the minority of the elder generation that you refer to above. Unlike those examples of that generation that you quote above, neither of us wish to return to the days of the 1950s and 1960s, but are quite happy to live in the 21st century.

I agree - Education, experience, travel and intelligence are the keys. Not age.

 

[Howardh]

When were the Prime Ministerial duties were removed from Boris Johnson and does Cummings now head all Cabinet and Cobra meetings?

By all accounts from MP's, yes he does in effect.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...johnson-vote-leave-nigel-farage-a9045766.html

Cummings is merely the latest in a long line of geniuses to run things for the Conservatives in 10 Downing Street. First there was Andy Coulson, whose genius took him to prison. Then there was Steve Hilton, whose genius took him to a life of Donald Trump fanboyism on Fox News. Then there was Craig Oliver, whose genius took him to losing the referendum campaign. Then there was Nick Timothy, whose genius took him to tirelessly writing self-exculpating columns for the crime of accidentally detonating the full holy trinity: his career, his prime minister and his country.

https://www.conservativehome.com/th...the-new-government-if-you-havent-already.html

 

[87 027]

When were the Prime Ministerial duties were removed from Boris Johnson and does Cummings now head all Cabinet and Cobra meetings?

If what you say is true, Sir Humphrey indeed would feel that the Civil Service were in their correct role positions...

A closer analogy would be Jim Hacker's special adviser Frank Weisel (see early episodes of Yes Minister) - the civil servants kept mispronouncing his surname as "weasel"

 

[edwin_m]

I agree - Education, experience, travel and intelligence are the keys. Not age.

I really think we should be keeping the question of intelligence out of this. I very much doubt anyone has done a survey correlating IQ to voting intention, and if they did it would be difficult to correct for other factors. With no supporting evidence, saying this is no better than some of the Brexiters' myths, and tends to confirm their belief that Remainers look down on them.

 

[Doppelganger]

I really think we should be keeping the question of intelligence out of this. I very much doubt anyone has done a survey correlating IQ to voting intention, and if they did it would be difficult to correct for other factors. With no supporting evidence, saying this is no better than some of the Brexiters' myths, and tends to confirm their belief that Remainers look down on them.

This might suggest the opposite:

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...im-that-better-educated-voted-remain-pollster

 

[edwin_m]

This might suggest the opposite:

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...im-that-better-educated-voted-remain-pollster

"Better educated" isn't the same thing as "intelligent".

 

[krus_aragon]

What I'd describe as "intelligence" is largely gained through education and experience. As DarloRich already mentioned those, perhaps we can dispense with the more contentious label.

 

[Geezertronic]

The government is currently being run by Cummings, an unelected bureaucrat.

What's the definition of hypocrisy again??

Problem is, who would run the Government if Corbyn was to be PM because it certainly wouldn't be Corbyn

 

[Howardh]

Problem is, who would run the Government if Corbyn was to be PM because it certainly wouldn't be Corbyn

If one of them were still with us, I'd give the job to the Chuckle Brothers. They are now trying to gerrymander an election so the result won't appear until after we've left. Why? because they know darned well any election before hand they would lose by miles and the new government would either soften Brexit or revoke Article 50. And if any Brexit supporter thinks that's bunkum, then let's be having the election the week before we leave, not the day we leave, as you're gonna win, right??

 

[edwin_m]

What I'd describe as "intelligence" is largely gained through education and experience.

Intelligence (IQ) tests are intended to measure mental capacity, not knowledge, and should be designed to exclude biases arising from the sitter's culture or education. People educated to a high level are probably also going to be intelligent, but I've known plenty of people who were intelligent but with a low level of education. Also who were intelligent and possibly also well-educated but had mental or social difficulties meaning the struggled to find a place in conventional society. Part of the confusion may arise from use of the work "ignorant" to mean unintelligent, when it literally means lacking in knowledge.

If you use "intelligent" to refer to level of education or experience then you are incorrect. I might consider you ill-informed in that respect, but I wouldn't conclude that you were unintelligent.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If one of them were still with us, I'd give the job to the Chuckle Brothers.

Did you not hear of the death of one of these just over a year ago? Barry David Eliot died, aged 73, on 5th August 2018.