TPE Mark 5A coaching stock progress

[gimmea50anyday]

Yes I'm currently at York. A shiny new silver train has just pulled out

Yeah I noticed that, I joked with the despatch staff about taking that instead of the 185 that was subsequently cancelled!

 

[BeHereNow]

White space on the graph is useless when you’ve no spare crew.

Interesting observation.

 

[scarby]

Yes some seem to forget that but TPE make decisions in their ivory towers to cancel trains at the drop of a hat with apparently little regard for the people who pay the fares.

I've been using the Scarborough-York line since the 1970s. I can confidently say that since the May 2018 timetable change it has been at its absolute worst in all that time for reliability. That's some 'achievement', regardless of how and why it has been caused. May to December last year was just dreadful, followed by a return to something reasonable, but now this week the bad old days seem to have returned. On top of cancellations, services are frequently late getting into Scarborough.

My thought for a long time has been to run the Scarborough-York branch as a shuttle (I think this requires just 3 trains to maintain the current level of service, 2 for most of the day). Sure this means everyone (coming/going beyond York) has to change at York, but the trade-off would be a service that ought to be ultra-punctual and reliable unless there is a major incident on the route.

 

[sjpowermac]

Yes some seem to forget that but TPE make decisions in their ivory towers to cancel trains at the drop of a hat with apparently little regard for the people who pay the fares.

Whilst not wishing to get drawn into the rights and wrongs of cancelling 1E31; I observed 1E33 (the following Scarborough service) at York and it was ‘full and standing’. Train formed of 185126/185140, rear unit locked out (not questioning the reason for that) but it did lead to conditions that looked very unpleasant. Train stood at York for ten minutes whilst the guard and platform dispatch did their best to get everyone on after they had trailed all the way from platform 5 over to 4. Many had suitcases and I did feel rather sorry for them standing in the rain trying to squeeze on a rammed train.

Regarding ‘there’s no paths over the Pennines’, yes it is a very busy route but on 19th July there was a TPE operated 5E68 that left Liverpool about half an hour ahead of the first passenger service and operated over the usual route to Scarborough, with station stops too. The return was routed to avoid Leeds and I do understand that overnight runs are not ideal due to the regular diversions from the core route.

 

[sjpowermac]

Poorly worded?

Please remember, railways are a serious matter and you shouldn’t be light hearted in any way.

Since you ask though, here’s a glimpse of what powers the Mk5a coaching stock, 68028 back in February at York with a test run I wonder how on earth they found a path for this Longsight to Scarborough run?

Yorkshire locos at present are:
68032 York
68023 Scarborough

Driver refresher trips working off York/Scarborough seem to have been very sporadic the past two weeks.

68019 and 68020 return home on 15.08.2019 working 0M68 York P SD-Longsight.

68027 (incase anyone missed it!) worked 5E31 09:56 Liverpool Lime Street to Scarborough
5F68 13:44 Scarborough to Liverpool Lime Street

 

[sjpowermac]

TP12 Test Runs/FFR
Test/Fault Free Running listed below for TP12. I’m guessing that this set might be fairly close to reaching the required number of miles for acceptance by TPE.

The ‘gaps’ between runs would appear to be accounted for by test runs with Nova 2 sets.

Fingers crossed for another Nova 3 set handed over, and hopefully some training runs working off the new Scarborough TMD, which I understand is now complete

As always, any corrections gratefully received

Wednesday 24.07.2019
68021 plus TP12
21:20 MID-Nuneaton(23:23)
23:37 Nuneaton-Stafford(00:05)

Thursday 25.07.2019
68021 plus TP12
03:35 Stafford-MID (03:10)
Departed 169 early from Stafford at 00:46
21:20 MID-Nuneaton (23:23)
23:37 Nuneaton-Stafford (00:05)

Friday 26.07.2019
68021 plus TP12
03:35 Stafford-Longsight Excursion Platform
05:24 Longsight Excursion Platform-Bletchley
09:29 Bletchley-MID

Wednesday 31.07.2019
68021 plus TP12
05:15 MID-Carlisle
09:38 Carlisle-Longsight Excursion Platform

Friday 02.08.2019
68021 plus TP12
05:15 MID-Carlisle
08:12 Carlisle-MID

Monday 05.08.2019
68021 plus TP12
05:15 MID-Carlisle
08:12 Carlisle-Bletchley
15:33 Bletchley-MID

Thursday 08.08.2019
68021 plus TP12
05:15 MID-Carlisle
08:12 Carlisle-Crewe
12:29 Crewe-MID

Thursday 15.08.2019
68030 plus TP12
05:15 MID-Carlisle
08:12 Carlisle-Crewe
12:30 Crewe-MID

Friday 16.08.2019
68030 plus TP12
05:15 MID-Carlisle
08:12 Carlisle-Crewe
12:30 Crewe-MID

 

[FFFC 57]

The train is now sat in Man Picc station P8.

As soon as you lose the ETS the coaches 90 minute load-shedding commences, with a further 30 minutes available if selected before the first 90 mins are up.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

With regard to paths (or lack of) over the Pennines, surely that's another reason to reduce frequency in favour of extra capacity per service. Leeds to Manchester isn't the Central Line. 4tph would be more than adequate providing there were extra double sets, along with the possibility of portion working at either end.

 

[BMIFlyer]

As soon as you lose the ETS the coaches 90 minute load-shedding commences, with a further 30 minutes available if selected before the first 90 mins are up.

Yes but you still have loco control from the DT.

 

[aleggatta]

If you lose ETS, can you still 'dead haul' the coaches (simply letting the load shed time out) or have you got to specifically shut down the coaches? Can that be done on the mainline or do you need to go to depot for the coaches to be set up for dead haul?

 

[Bantamzen]

Quite happy where I am thanks.

The point is that you shouldn't cancel services to run a 'special' and if you do only in extreme circumstances. You 'could' get away with cancelling a train between Manchester and York (as there are plenty of alternatives) but leaving the Scarborough line with a big gap in the middle of the day at the height of summer is poor.

TPE could have even run a shadow service between York and Scarborough (plenty of white space on the graph there!)

I wasn't suggesting a move in job, just that you might like to offer some insight that you seem to think that TPE planners did not have.

 

[Erniescooper]

If you lose ETS, can you still 'dead haul' the coaches (simply letting the load shed time out) or have you got to specifically shut down the coaches? Can that be done on the mainline or do you need to go to depot for the coaches to be set up for dead haul?

You need to bring it to a stand before it times out as you get an emergency brake app without WSP when it does. All you have to do for dead haul is put the 2 SIFA valves in the DT in the isolated position

 

[aleggatta]

You need to bring it to a stand before it times out as you get an emergency brake app without WSP when it does. All you have to do for dead haul is put the 2 SIFA valves in the DT in the isolated position

SIFA valves?

 

[Erniescooper]

SIFA valves?

SIFA is apparently short for Sicherheitsfahrschaltung which i think is a european version of DSD but they are just a pair of electro-pneumatic valves used to vent the brake pipe

 

[EE Andy b1]

SIFA is apparently short for Sicherheitsfahrschaltung which i think is a european version of DSD but they are just a pair of electro-pneumatic valves used to vent the brake pipe

Class 390s have one at either cab end. Need to be isolated to drag dead.

 

[BMIFlyer]

SIFA is apparently short for Sicherheitsfahrschaltung which i think is a european version of DSD but they are just a pair of electro-pneumatic valves used to vent the brake pipe

It’s basically an emergency brake loop / train wire 4 for the old school train crew among us.

 

[FFFC 57]

Yes but you still have loco control from the DT.

That's right, but only whilst you have sufficient battery vol

You need to bring it to a stand before it times out as you get an emergency brake app without WSP when it does. All you have to do for dead haul is put the 2 SIFA valves in the DT in the isolated position

SIFA Forms part of the emergency loop and it's function is to vent the BP should the loop be de energised. There are 2 SIFAs on the DT you can isolate one and still have an emergency brake. But if you isolate both you will get traction cut out. The driver must then operate the TLB and MVBC to continue.
Basically things have gone pretty bad if your isolating these.

 

[PennineSuperb]

As soon as you lose the ETS the coaches 90 minute load-shedding commences, with a further 30 minutes available if selected before the first 90 mins are up.

You can even turn the batteries off and the countdown resets (!)

 

[sjpowermac]

Paths in for next week for Nova 3 runs over the Pennines.

Monday 19th August 2019
5F68 04:00 Crewe CS to Liverpool Lime Street (04:48)
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/N04797/2019/08/19/advanced

5E68 05:17 Liverpool Lime Street-Scarborough (09:58)
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/N04796/2019/08/19/advanced

5M68 11:05 Scarborough-Longsight (14:42)
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/N04799/2019/08/19/advanced

Tuesday 20th August 2019
5F68 03:44 Longsight-Liverpool Lime Street (05:09) and then the same diagram as Monday.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/N04798/2019/08/20/advanced

Trains running via Wakefield Kirkgate.

 

[68011]

Regarding ‘there’s no paths over the Pennines’, yes it is a very busy route but on 19th July there was a TPE operated 5E68 that left Liverpool about half an hour ahead of the first passenger service and operated over the usual route to Scarborough, with station stops too. The return was routed to avoid Leeds and I do understand that overnight runs are not ideal due to the regular diversions from the core route./QUOTE]

It's possible that path over the usual route actually didn't work in reality hence why other workings and next weeks paths are running via Wakefield. As someone who plans services I can tell you the Leeds - York route is near impossible to find a path over in the daytime between the peaks, let alone in the peaks.

 

[tpjm]

My thought for a long time has been to run the Scarborough-York branch as a shuttle (I think this requires just 3 trains to maintain the current level of service, 2 for most of the day).

My understanding is that Northern are intending to do something similar to this in the December timetable. Whether it is an extension of a Leeds - York service or not, I'm not 100%.

Regarding ‘there’s no paths over the Pennines’, yes it is a very busy route but on 19th July there was a TPE operated 5E68 that left Liverpool about half an hour ahead of the first passenger service and operated over the usual route to Scarborough, with station stops too. The return was routed to avoid Leeds and I do understand that overnight runs are not ideal due to the regular diversions from the core route.

It was also run out of LIV at 0506, booked 10 mins at HUD, 40 mins at WKK and 10 mins at CHF. It was routed via WKK, before traversing two sides of the Methley triangle. What I'm getting at is that those paths are not the best use of time, not always available and the times are not always suitable for crew to be trained/passed out. Cancelling pax trains should always be a last resort, but hopefully we aren't too far away now from doing these Nova 3 training runs on a 1E/1F head code vice a 5E/5F.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Whilst not wishing to get drawn into the rights and wrongs of cancelling 1E31; I observed 1E33 (the following Scarborough service) at York and it was ‘full and standing’. Train formed of 185126/185140, rear unit locked out (not questioning the reason for that) but it did lead to conditions that looked very unpleasant. Train stood at York for ten minutes whilst the guard and platform dispatch did their best to get everyone on after they had trailed all the way from platform 5 over to 4. Many had suitcases and I did feel rather sorry for them standing in the rain trying to squeeze on a rammed train.

Carting fresh air around is never a good idea especially when connected to a full train. Unless there is a specific operational reason why, 185s coupled together are supposed to have all coaches in public service. In this case the only reason I can see is Lea Green isnt long enough for 185 x6. Takes 3, possibly 4 so doors should have been locked or unit UDB for that station stop. Rules regarding UDB (unit door blocking, train doors will not release behind the activated switch) do have a habit of changing tho and we have previously had instructions not to convey passengers in a unit that is UDB active.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Whilst not wishing to get drawn into the rights and wrongs of cancelling 1E31; I observed 1E33 (the following Scarborough service) at York and it was ‘full and standing’. Train formed of 185126/185140, rear unit locked out (not questioning the reason for that) but it did lead to conditions that looked very unpleasant. Train stood at York for ten minutes whilst the guard and platform dispatch did their best to get everyone on after they had trailed all the way from platform 5 over to 4. Many had suitcases and I did feel rather sorry for them standing in the rain trying to squeeze on a rammed train.

Carting fresh air around is never a good idea especially when connected to a full train. Unless there is a specific operational reason why, 185s coupled together are supposed to have all coaches in public service. In this case the only reason I can see is Lea Green isnt long enough for 185 x6. Takes 3, possibly 4 so doors should have been locked or unit UDB for that station stop. Rules regarding UDB (unit door blocking, train doors will not release behind the activated switch) do have a habit of changing tho and we have previously had instructions not to convey passengers in a unit that is UDB active.

 

[Spartacus]

One for today it seems

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O32366/2019/08/17/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O32368/2019/08/17/advanced

 

[sjpowermac]

It's possible that path over the usual route actually didn't work in reality hence why other workings and next weeks paths are running via Wakefield. As someone who plans services I can tell you the Leeds - York route is near impossible to find a path over in the daytime between the peaks, let alone in the peaks.

I can quite appreciate how a path that looked ok in theory might well have caused delays.

Information doesn’t get any better than from someone doing the job, I’m more than happy to stand corrected

Just a small request though: 5E68 not getting to York until 09:03 is a touch inconvenient to me, in future would you mind bobbing it back an hour

 

[sjpowermac]

It was also run out of LIV at 0506, booked 10 mins at HUD, 40 mins at WKK and 10 mins at CHF. It was routed via WKK, before traversing two sides of the Methley triangle. What I'm getting at is that those paths are not the best use of time, not always available and the times are not always suitable for crew to be trained/passed out. Cancelling pax trains should always be a last resort, but hopefully we aren't too far away now from doing these Nova 3 training runs on a 1E/1F head code vice a 5E/5F.

I did say that I didn’t want to get drawn into this, but I seem to have done a poor job of that

The run on 19th July was via Leeds:
LIV 05:01
LEG 05:12-05:13
MCV 05:34-05:36
HUD 06:02-06:08
LDS 06:32-06:44
YRK 07:06-07:10
MLT 07:34-07:35
SEN 07:51-07:52
SCA 08:00

I think on this occasion the Nova 3 used the gap on the key Leeds to Micklefield section between:
2T03 06:24 Leeds-York and
9E05 at 06:54
RHTT trains use this in the autumn, and Man Air-Newcastle trains other hours.


The train seemed to run well on the day, but of course the path might have caused delays to other trains. Again happy to stand corrected
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/N03727/2019/07/19/advanced

Best wishes to you and your team in changing 5 into 1

 

[sjpowermac]

Carting fresh air around is never a good idea especially when connected to a full train. Unless there is a specific operational reason why, 185s coupled together are supposed to have all coaches in public service. In this case the only reason I can see is Lea Green isnt long enough for 185 x6. Takes 3, possibly 4 so doors should have been locked or unit UDB for that station stop. Rules regarding UDB (unit door blocking, train doors will not release behind the activated switch) do have a habit of changing tho and we have previously had instructions not to convey passengers in a unit that is UDB active.

Many thanks for that. I definitely wasn’t questioning why the rear unit was locked out, I’m sure there was a perfectly good reason

The guard and dispatch were certainly doing a great job in what looked to be a very tricky situation. That’s always been my experience of TPE, you have great staff.

 

[BMIFlyer]

Should be guard and driver pass outs on both those days trains from coast to coast.

So, more staff trained, all good.

It now means that seeing the trains in service is getting closer

Paths in for next week for Nova 3 runs over the Pennines.

Monday 19th August 2019
5F68 04:00 Crewe CS to Liverpool Lime Street (04:48)
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/N04797/2019/08/19/advanced

5E68 05:17 Liverpool Lime Street-Scarborough (09:58)
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/N04796/2019/08/19/advanced

5M68 11:05 Scarborough-Longsight (14:42)
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/N04799/2019/08/19/advanced

Tuesday 20th August 2019
5F68 03:44 Longsight-Liverpool Lime Street (05:09) and then the same diagram as Monday.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/N04798/2019/08/20/advanced

Trains running via Wakefield Kirkgate.

 

[_toommm_]

68026 is running on 5E31 today, with the 'DVT' leading from Manchester Piccadilly. Times below:


http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O32366/2019/08/17/advanced

 

[Ben Bow]

Should be guard and driver pass outs on both those days trains from coast to coast.

So, more staff trained, all good.

It now means that seeing the trains in service is getting closer

Its absolutely not "all good" - the way both passengers and staff are being treated over this is nothing short of a disgrace. Selling tickets and reservations for services which TPE know are going to be cancelled is tantamount to fraud, in my opinion. Not telling traincrew involved in working the original trains until the last minute that their service is cancelled, and making them work enforced overtime to get home, is destroying any remaining vestiges of goodwill that survived last year's timetable debacle. If service train paths have to be used, as there is no alternative, then that is regrettable, but understandable, but failure to inform both pax and staff of the alterations, and carry on as though the services will be provided until the last minute, is most definitely not acceptable.