First Group: General Discussion

[Alexbus12]

I believe this way is what they are planning for Vantage as they've not bothered to get a permanent base...

K

Rusholme was to be the permanent base for Vantage, but drivers threatened to quit, some did, as most lived towards Bolton/Leigh and would have to travel a lot longer. The Arriva depot is quite a good base actually, an already established depot, it has the facilities a depot needs.

 

[Yorks185]

MCT seem happy to survive off tenders and scraps. They've shown no interest in frequent commercial services, probably wisely given the competition around. If however, Stagecoach were to start say a 59, 83 and 409, I doubt First would be able to do much about it.

Do Stagecoach have enough room at their Middleton & Ashton depots to take on anymore former First routes?

might sound like a long shot,but could replacing Oldham with an outstation somewhere in Saddleworth for routes 83/180/184 be an option & let other operators take on the other routes - call it 'First West Yorks & Saddleworth'

 

[K4016td]

Are there any details what buses would replace Citaros in Slough?

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Might sound like a long shot,but could replacing Oldham with an outstation somewhere in Saddleworth for routes 83/180/184 be an option & let other operators take on the other routes - call it 'First West Yorks & Saddleworth'

As I've mentioned up thread, if Oldham was to be retained it would become an outstation like Todmorden.

The other option is that First could brand the 83/180/184 (along with the Huddersfield 181, 183, 185 and 186) as the Standedge Explorer (similar to the Mendip Explorer) and operate it jointly between Oldham and Huddersfield until if/when Oldham is sold before transfering the running of 83/180/184 to Huddersfield.

If the Todmorden outstation can operate the new service 588 between Rochdale and Littleborough, I can't see why Huddersfield can't do the same with the 83/180/184. Fair enough you'd need to revise the timetables so that they can interwork with each other if needs be.

 

[158756]

They only run an hourly service from Oldham to Huddersfield, it's not crucial to their Huddersfield operation, why not just let it go with the rest of Oldham? Alternatively run it from the Huddersfield end, only as far as Oldham. I don't see how it would be sensible to attempt to operate 12 buses per hour between Manchester and Oldham from a depot in Yorkshire.

 

[Andyh82]

As I've mentioned up thread, if Oldham was to be retained it would become an outstation like Todmorden.

Todmorden has about 10 buses, Oldham has 150.

Why would it be an “outstation”, when it’s bigger than Huddersfield depot itself!

 

[Alexbus12]

As I've mentioned up thread, if Oldham was to be retained it would become an outstation like Todmorden.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was always under the impression an outstation was merely a piece of land where buses are stored, and maintenance done at another depot. Oldham no longer has all the admin staff it once had, most now based in Yorkshire anyway, same with managers. So would it really be an outstation..

 

[goldisgood]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was always under the impression an outstation was merely a piece of land where buses are stored, and maintenance done at another depot. Oldham no longer has all the admin staff it once had, most now based in Yorkshire anyway, same with managers. So would it really be an outstation..

Nope, most likely to be a depot under West Yorkshire control. I think Midlands and Potteries are under the East of England management now, so wouldn't it be a similar arrangement to this?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was always under the impression an outstation was merely a piece of land where buses are stored, and maintenance done at another depot. Oldham no longer has all the admin staff it once had, most now based in Yorkshire anyway, same with managers. So would it really be an outstation..

An outstation is nothing more than a parking facility for buses. They may have no maintenance facilities and consequently usually don’t have a fixed allocation.

Oldham has its own allocation, maintenance facilities and local depot management. It’s just another depot (of First West Yorkshire?) in reality.

 

[Robertj21a]

Nope, most likely to be a depot under West Yorkshire control. I think Midlands and Potteries are under the East of England management now, so wouldn't it be a similar arrangement to this?

Potteries, Worcester and Leicester are under Leicester control.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Apparently there might be some news soon about a divestment.

Watch this space.

 

[Andyh82]

Apparently there might be some news soon about a divestment.

Watch this space.

Cue every single scenario about every operating company being mentioned, and then nothing actually happening...

 

[overthewater]

OR it could be Greyhound... I agree I doubt we will see someone making an offer and First saying yes.

 

[Alexbus12]

Cue every single scenario about every operating company being mentioned, and then nothing actually happening...

Love a good rumour though

 

[Anthony ross]

Everybody loves a good rumour lol

 

[F Great Eastern]

Cue every single scenario about every operating company being mentioned, and then nothing actually happening...

I hope you appreciate that sometimes people cannot detail too much as they need to protect sources.

However I wouldn't be posting something if I did not trust the source.

 

[Cesarcollie]

I hope you appreciate that sometimes people cannot detail too much as they need to protect sources.

However I wouldn't be posting something if I did not trust the source.

Ooh. I bet it will be ‘insert name of company’. They’ve just received three old Volvos in exchange for 3 Streetlites and started painting their buses a different colour

 

[Volvodart]

If it is to be sold in bits and pieces, I cannot see the rush anyway. If Arriva were to be an IPO it may mean that Arriva UK buses stays intact and any potential bidders for First bus businesses would not be thinking of holding something back for that. We should be hearing what DB are going to be doing with Arriva soon.

 

[DragonEast]

Wouldn't scoff. They have to come up with some news soon, after all they've been planning for nigh on a decade, and the acceleration in the Board moves over the last few years must be a prelude to something (though admittedly O'Toole's strategy seems to have outlived him, maybe for want of anything else) . . . They've put considerable effort into keeping shareholders on board too. For what? So, our old friend TINA is back again.

They got rid of the Wolf, but it doesn't keep the wolf from the door.

The present state of limbo surely serves no-ones interests. I suspect that FirstBus is already effectively "divested" in terms of management interest; and the awaited announcement is just part of the paperwork "catch up". Certainly First corporate publicity thinks school bus contract awards in the US are big news ranking alongside the recent rail tender award, more than anything happening at FirstBus. I know the Group Chief Executive wrote a letter to state that "nothing had changed". Thanks for telling us, I'm sure we'd not have realised otherwise!

I'm just interested to see the size of of further write downs this time.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Wouldn't scoff. They have to come up with some news soon, after all they've been planning for nigh on a decade, and the acceleration in the Board moves over the last few years must be a prelude to something (though admittedly O'Toole's strategy seems to have outlived him, maybe for want of anything else) . . . They've put considerable effort into keeping shareholders on board too. For what? So, our old friend TINA is back again.

They got rid of the Wolf, but it doesn't keep the wolf from the door.

The present state of limbo surely serves no-ones interests. I'm just interested to see the size of of further write downs this time.

Perhaps it's me (and probably is) but I'm totally confused by your post. What is TINA? Who's the wolf?

The Coast Capital intervention has clearly focused the minds of the board, hence the view in divesting parts of the business. With David Martin coming on board, it will be interesting to see what they actually do. Does the policy of separating UK Bus get pursued or not? What of the rail business?

Offloading Greyhound would be a start and they had already written that down, doubtless to support a disposal. Whether that write-down was enough is a moot point - depends how much someone offers (and indeed, who would want it though it does have a reasonable property portfolio).

What is a problem is the restriction on capital spend for UK Bus. What little cash that is available has gone to Cornwall, Glasgow and Leeds. Future plans involve Eastern Counties whilst Bristol's new fleet is delayed until 2020 to meet various quality commitments. Meanwhile, other profitable fleets such as Cymru and Leicester are reliant on cascades and doubtless, there are other fleets with good services that are now being hamstrung.

One thing that must be highlighted is that the UK bus industry is going through a tough time. People will point to various OpCos cutting services (Aberdeen, West of England, Glasgow) but we've seen Stagecoach cutting in Gloucestershire and Northants (on top of earlier cuts in Kent), and Transdev also cutting in Lancashire.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was always under the impression an outstation was merely a piece of land where buses are stored, and maintenance done at another depot. Oldham no longer has all the admin staff it once had, most now based in Yorkshire anyway, same with managers. So would it really be an outstation..

Depends on how one would describe an outstation, I use the term outstation for the Oldham operation as the Greater Manchester operation has shrunk and that the offices or maintenance has moved elsewhere and is only functioning is a very basic yard.

Nope, most likely to be a depot under West Yorkshire control. I think Midlands and Potteries are under the East of England management now, so wouldn't it be a similar arrangement to this?

If that's the case it'd be the same as the York operation.

An outstation is nothing more than a parking facility for buses. They may have no maintenance facilities and consequently usually don’t have a fixed allocation. Oldham has its own allocation, maintenance facilities and local depot management. It’s just another depot (of First West Yorkshire?) in reality.

Would I be right if I said that the Oldham depot is similar to how York depot operates? As a sort of satallite depot rather than outstation.

I know that Compass Travel (Sussex) Ltd has two outstations (one at Lewes and the other at Dunsfold) which have both offices and maintenance as not everything is maintained at main depot at Durington On Sea. It'll have been how their operation uses outstations that gave me the idea that if one operator does it, them the rest probably do.

Might need a new thread detailing on what makes an outstation an outstation.

 

[overthewater]

Stagecoach seems to be making cuts on a more sensible level while the cuts made at some First depots just look mad. I do think greyhound getting offloaded is a good bet, as its the one thing its needs doing.

 

[Ianno87]

Stagecoach seems to be making cuts on a more sensible level while the cuts made at some First depots just look mad. I do think greyhound getting offloaded is a good bet, as its the one thing its needs doing.

Stagecoach seem to be quite skilled of careful pruning the branches of the tree to keep it in good, tidy shape.

First sit and watch the tree die then take a chainsaw to the trunk.

 

[Jordan Adam]

First sit and watch the tree die then take a chainsaw to the trunk.

I've seen Stagecoach locally do much the same for around a decade now. Although First are by far the bigger culprits.

 

[Alexbus12]

Depends on how one would describe an outstation, I use the term outstation for the Oldham operation as the Greater Manchester operation has shrunk and that the offices or maintenance has moved elsewhere and is only functioning is a very basic yard.

Maintenance is still done at Oldham..

 

[Simon75]

Maintenance is still done at Oldham..

General Thread on outstations
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/outstations.49532/

 

[lincman]

As First Manchester still holds its own operators licence, and a considerable fleet at its only depot Oldham it can no way be classed as an outstation of any other company. It may part of a regional administration centre as First Potteries is for various midlands companies.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I've seen Stagecoach locally do much the same for around a decade now. Although First are by far the bigger culprits.

It’s something that can be levelled at the major operators. First can be highlighted as can various Stagecoach OpCos but what of Arriva cutting in the Midlands (selling Burton and Wednesfield, closing Stafford, general cutting back in Cannock) and the North East, vacating mid Wales, declining in the Shires?

Phil Stockley writes in Buses and I’ve a lot of time for his views. He states buses aren’t in an existential crisis; I’m not so certain as internet shopping, a fundamental challenge with an underfunded concessionary scheme and an unequal battle with the private car threaten the existence of buses at the margins. It’s an issue across the country.

 

[mic]

Maintenance is still done at Oldham..

are you the one who asked on slf about 66338 news on that is that it went to PVS before the take over of Bolton

 

[Alexbus12]

are you the one who asked on slf about 66338 news on that is that it went to PVS before the take over of Bolton

Yeah. Oh right, thanks for that. Only did a day or so in service, received a brand new repaint and then ended up on the pits for 2 years.