Why are people opposed to HS2? (And other HS2 discussion)

[JonathanH]

TOC's like Cross Country, TPEX, LNR and Northern have a chronic lack of carriages on services.

These issues (and others) are being addressed, regardless of HS2

TPEX is just about to get a whole load of extra capacity. There are the proposed works between Huddersfield and Dewsbury which will improve this route.

LNR has just taken on a whole load of 319s to improve capacity at the southern end. There is new stock on order for elsewhere.

Everyone is hopeful that CrossCountry may receive 221s from West Coast and / or 222s from East Midlands.

There are new trains being introduced on the Northern network (although whether they improve capacity is questionable).

 

[gazzaa2]

These issues (and others) are being addressed, regardless of HS2

TPEX is just about to get a whole load of extra capacity. There are the proposed works between Huddersfield and Dewsbury which will improve this route.

LNR has just taken on a whole load of 319s to improve capacity at the southern end. There is new stock on order for elsewhere.

Everyone is hopeful that CrossCountry may receive 221s from West Coast and / or 222s from East Midlands.

There are new trains being introduced on the Northern network (although whether they improve capacity is questionable).

I appreciate these changes are ongoing but they've been promised for years on these TOC's and while they're being introduced whenever I get these services it's still mostly short formed and overcrowded. On Friday afternoon I couldn't get on a train at Manchester because it was a 2 car at rush hour, even though it was a newer train. Yesterday I was on a 4 car LNR packed to the brim and then a 2 car Cross Country service both ways between Birmingham and Leicester. I'm at the point where i'm going to stop getting these services completely until they put on more carriages every time.

The only reliable amount of carriages on services I use is on WCML and that's because it serves London and they still get overcrowded because of the sheer amount of passengers using them.

I'm not fully against HS2 because the WCML is at full capacity and will get worse. Something needs to be done. But ultimately it's a London-centric answer to something a London-centric mentality has created.

 

[mmh]

Yeah, but that's road, so that's different. You will tend to find that those who use appeals to emotion to oppose rail development rarely have any problems with road development, because they personally use roads but not rail.

The Green Party opposes HS2, and also new road developments. (They oppose an awful lot more than they ever propose.)

There are roads which took decades to complete due to protests over them. For example the M74 and M77 in/around Glasgow, and the one in the South of England I can't remember the number of of Swampy fame.

It's just not true to say roads aren't opposed.

 

[The Ham]

I'm not deathly opposed to HS2 but there's a chronic lack of carriages on trains throughout the country that aren't going to or from London. If your train isn't going to London, or leaving London, then you're hoarded in like cattle. Local journeys are a nightmare, Cross Country is a nightmare, east-west is a nightmare.

Another one of the problems of the railway is the amount of people going to London who don't need to be there. I can get a straight train from Liverpool-Norwich, but it tends to be quicker to go from Liverpool to London and London to Norwich than sit on a train for 5 and a half hours. Norwich is actually north of Birmingham! Yet it's quicker to go via London from the north west. THere's so many journeys where this an issue. In the south as well, you want to get from a to b via railway (say Essex to Kent) you've got to trek to London first.

If you throw HS2 into the mix then it exacerbates this. More people travelling to London who don't need to be there because it's quicker to go via London. Yet it's a vicious circle becuase the more people going to London means London needs extra capacity. Mass centralisaton around London (and other major cities) is another major problem which HS2 only increases.

TOC's like Cross Country, TPEX, LNR and Northern have a chronic lack of carriages on services. The east-west connections, services, capacity, carriages, speed are pitiful. Yet a faster line to London is apparently the answer to all the problems on the network and for 10s and 10s of billions more than it was supposed to cost.

Birmingham to Liverpool is a difficult journey time to find a HS2 journey time, but even the current is 1:40.

Add in 35 minutes for Birmingham to Nottingham.

Then a further 2:40 for Nottingham to Norwich and that's about 5 hours on the train, even with a zero time saving between Liverpool and Birmingham.

Now after HS2 is built there's calls for a new line into Liverpool so that journey times can be cut further. This would further reduce the time to make this journey. However wouldn't be built without HS2.

Likewise Northern Powerhouse Rail will require additional infrastructure costs if HS2 isn't built.

Yes HS2 isn't going to solve everyone's problems, but it would be the launch pad for other schemes which would solve a lot of those problems.

 

[The Ham]

The Green Party opposes HS2, and also new road developments. (They oppose an awful lot more than they ever propose.)

There are roads which took decades to complete due to protests over them. For example the M74 and M77 in/around Glasgow, and the one in the South of England I can't remember the number of of Swampy fame.

It's just not true to say roads aren't opposed.

Swampy was on the A34, amongst others.

 

[AM9]

I’m not against HS2, actually I’m very pro HS2 however what I am against is the watered down version that Sheffield will get, along with Derby and Nottingham.

If rumours are true it’s very probable that the spur will be cancelled. The contempt for our city is disgraceful. You’d almost forget that we are one of the countries largest cities and the most central.

Anyway, assuming HS2 will disappoint Sheffield ("show contempt"), then don't worry because we still have the following to look forward to:
MML electrification ...oh, no, wait...
30 min Sheff-Mcr trains at 6tph through NPR ...oh, no, wait...
30 min Sheff-MAN airport trains at 2tph ...oh, no, wait...
A Trans-Pennine road base tunnel ...oh, no, wait...
Supertram Asset Renewal in 2024 ...oh, no, wait...
The possibility of an SCR-wide Mass Transit System ...oh, no, wait...(that's predicated on the tram renewal).

OK, I know about Grayling curtailing the MML electrification, where were the:

30 min Sheff-Mcr trains at 6tph through NPR
30 min Sheff-MAN airport trains at 2tph
A Trans-Pennine road base tunnel.
Supertram Asset Renewal in 2024​

all confirmed?
What is "an SCR-wide Mass Transit System"?

 

[ohgoditsjames]

OK, I know about Grayling curtailing the MML electrification, where were the:

30 min Sheff-Mcr trains at 6tph through NPR
30 min Sheff-MAN airport trains at 2tph
A Trans-Pennine road base tunnel.
Supertram Asset Renewal in 2024​

all confirmed?
What is "an SCR-wide Mass Transit System"?

They were the original plans by the NPR. We aren’t getting any of them now and HS3 will go absolutely nowhere near Sheffield. The tunnel might happen but if it does it will be in 50 years.

 

[AM9]

So a wish list, - no actual commitment then? Never mind, early days. Crossrail was first planned in 1974, then again in 1989, 1991, 1994, 2001 and finally 2008, and now it is a couple of years late. Everything comes to those who wait. IT's not only Sheffield that doesn't get what it wants, when it wants.

 

[ohgoditsjames]

So a wish list, - no actual commitment then? Never mind, early days. Crossrail was first planned in 1974, then again in 1989, 1991, 1994, 2001 and finally 2008, and now it is a couple of years late. Everything comes to those who wait. IT's not only Sheffield that doesn't get what it wants, when it wants.

So a possibility of no HS2, no HS3 and no wires is acceptable?

 

[mmh]

So a possibility of HS2, no HS3 and no wires is acceptable?

Yes, because it'll go to London and high speed trains might meander off to some places in the north at no greater speed than now, but they'll have HS2 trains!

I'm afraid I find the often repeated claim that half the country will be served by HS2 slightly silly. A train coming off a high speed track at Birmingham or Crewe and travelling, potentially slower than the existing services, along existing lines is not high speed rail.

You could say there are 125mph tilting trains to Holyhead, because there are, but it'd be very misleading.

 

[ohgoditsjames]

Yes, because it'll go to London and high speed trains might meander off to some places in the north at no greater speed than now, but they'll have HS2 trains!

I'm afraid I find the often repeated claim that half the country will be served by HS2 slightly silly. A train coming off a high speed track at Birmingham or Crewe and travelling, potentially slower than the existing services, along existing lines is not high speed rail.

You could say there are 125mph tilting trains to Holyhead, because there are, but it'd be very misleading.

Was a typo, meant to say NO HS2

 

[AM9]

So a possibility of HS2, no HS3 and no wires is acceptable?

That depends on:

a) what HS3 means, i.e. it is unlikely to be more than an 200km/h railway so HS3 is a bit of a misnomer givern that the ECML, WCML, GWML and MML all have some 200km/h and they are just trunk mainlines.
b) time, - NPR/HS3 was only announced in 2014 so as I said it is early days, (very) early days.​

If it is acceptable for Crossrail to go from a plan in 1974 and get parliamentary accession in 2008, just 34 years, then such delays are presumably no less acceptable in Sheffield.

 

[mmh]

That depends on:

a) what HS3 means, i.e. it is unlikely to be more than an 200km/h railway so HS3 is a bit of a misnomer givern that the ECML, WCML, GWML and MML all have some 200km/h and they are just trunk mainlines.
b) time, - NPR/HS3 was only announced in 2014 so as I said it is early days, (very) early days.​

If it is acceptable for Crossrail to go from a plan in 1974 and get parliamentary accession in 2008, just 34 years, then such delays are presumably no less acceptable in Sheffield.

Your clever point would be cleverer if during that period London and the South East had no public transport improvements. No Thameslink (both versions), no DLR, no London Overground, no Croydon Tramlink, limited capacity, frequency and stock improvements to the National Rail network, no Jubilee line extension, no Heathrow line, no Paddington and King's Cross electrification, no Travelcard system, no Oyster system and no Contactless payment.

Meanwhile in Sheffield there's been the tram.

 

[ohgoditsjames]

That depends on:

a) what HS3 means, i.e. it is unlikely to be more than an 200km/h railway so HS3 is a bit of a misnomer givern that the ECML, WCML, GWML and MML all have some 200km/h and they are just trunk mainlines.
b) time, - NPR/HS3 was only announced in 2014 so as I said it is early days, (very) early days.​

If it is acceptable for Crossrail to go from a plan in 1974 and get parliamentary accession in 2008, just 34 years, then such delays are presumably no less acceptable in Sheffield.

A 125mph line is still better than the inadequate Hope Valley line and diabolical roads that are often closed. Sheffield and Manchester are 2 of the worst connected neighbouring cities by rail and road in the country.

 

[JonathanH]

no Travelcard system, no Oyster system and no Contactless

Every one of the PTEs has some form of travelcard, albeit some don't allow any form of peak travel unless you buy a week or month. They extend out to some of the natural commuting distances.

South Yorkshire actually has a reasonably comprehensive set of commuting tickets.

They are trying to follow London with Oyster style ticketing but Oyster / Contactless is not perfect and neither are the versions in other conurbations, not least because they require a major change in the way fares are set.

if during that period London and the South East had no public transport improvements. No Thameslink (both versions), no DLR, no London Overground, no Croydon Tramlink, limited capacity, frequency and stock improvements to the National Rail network

Clearly developments have been suppressed outside the South East but there are incremental schemes that have made a difference away from the south east - Leeds First, Birmingham Proof House remodelling, Norton Bridge, Windsor Link in Manchester, the four tracking through Huyton that have made and are making a difference.

I agree that Sheffield does appear to be a poor relation - what is on your shopping list? I imagine you'd want longer platforms, extension of the bays at the North end of Sheffield station, better signalling between Meadowhall and Sheffield to allow more frequent services, extra loops on the Huddersfield Line quicker link to Doncaster, easing of tight curves to Rotherham. Or do you want new lines across South Yorkshire?

 

[ohgoditsjames]

Every one of the PTEs has some form of travelcard, albeit some don't allow any form of peak travel unless you buy a week or month. They extend out to some of the natural commuting distances.

South Yorkshire actually has a reasonably comprehensive set of commuting tickets.

They are trying to follow London with Oyster style ticketing but Oyster / Contactless is not perfect and neither are the versions in other conurbations, not least because they require a major change in the way fares are set.



Clearly developments have been suppressed outside the South East but there are incremental schemes that have made a difference away from the south east - Leeds First, Birmingham Proof House remodelling, Norton Bridge, Windsor Link in Manchester, the four tracking through Huyton that have made and are making a difference.

I agree that Sheffield does appear to be a poor relation - what is on your shopping list? I imagine you'd want longer platforms, extension of the bays at the North end of Sheffield station, better signalling between Meadowhall and Sheffield to allow more frequent services, extra loops on the Huddersfield Line quicker link to Doncaster, easing of tight curves to Rotherham. Or do you want new lines across South Yorkshire?

If money were no object then I’d like to see the northern throat widened as it’s the main source for the delays and congestion for any trains leaving Sheffield to the north or trains arriving from the north, electrification between Sheffield and Leeds via Wakefield Westgate and electrification between Sheffield and Doncaster, full MML electrification and significant improvements to the HVL, either that or a new line all together (will never happen), better connectivity to Leeds such as faster journey times and more frequent services and longer trains. Everything you listed would be greatly appreciated also.

 

[AM9]

Your clever point would be cleverer if during that period London and the South East had no public transport improvements. No Thameslink (both versions), no DLR, no London Overground, no Croydon Tramlink, limited capacity, frequency and stock improvements to the National Rail network, no Jubilee line extension, no Heathrow line, no Paddington and King's Cross electrification, no Travelcard system, no Oyster system and no Contactless payment.

Meanwhile in Sheffield there's been the tram.

The posts that I am replying to relate to rail projects in Sheffield vs London and the south-east. Given that London rail travel represents about 2/3 of all mainline rail travel in the UK, whereas Sheffield would be somewhat less. In the absence of any data which is probably commercially sensitive anyway, lets's base it on the published number of exits and entries at the main station there compare with the numbers at the London main stations affected by the projects that you mentioned.

Sheffield - 9.6m

National Rail passengers on new and improved lines:
City Thameslink - 6.3m
Blackfriars - 10.5m
London Bridge - 48m
St Pancras International - 17+m (50% of domestic total)
Farringdon - 5m (40% of LU+TL total)
total passenger estimate /year at TL core stations = 80.5m
total TL cost including suitable trains = £6.5bn
GWR Electrification
Paddington - 36m
ECML electrification, (including Doncaster, Leeds etc.)
Kings Cross - 34m
London Overground, no costs available but it represents a ridership of 189m per year and serves 112 stations. Despite the very large size, it was really a project to tart up many poorly maintained lines and replace a mixed bag of life-expired trains. I suspect that the total stock of trains (124) will have cost less than £1bn.
The DLR has 45 stations and an annual ridership of 112m.
Croydon Tramlimk is smaller than Sheffield Supertram
The Heathrow line and its electrification was funded by Heathrow Airport owners (BAA at the time)
Crossrail was 2/3 funded from Greater London Authority and London business contributions

South Yorks has had day travelcards for years (I've used them myself), Oyster (or equivalent touch cards, not enough in Sheffield to justify a dedicated system by itself but ITSO cards are being introduced across the country by some TOCs, similarly, contactless payment could be introduced if there was a sufficient demand.

There's no really practical way to compare a large regional transport system as found in a world city like London with a relatively small city like Sheffield. Depending on whichever convenient method one might use to justify a city's ranking, (Sheffield can be the 6th 7th ot 10th largest city/metropolitan area in the UK), simply counting the number of people living within the city council's area is totally irrelevant when considering the provision of travel infrastructure and services. See this article: https://www.citymetric.com/skylines/where-are-largest-cities-britain-1404

 

[Sceptre]

I’m not against HS2, actually I’m very pro HS2 however what I am against is the watered down version that Sheffield will get, along with Derby and Nottingham.

If rumours are true it’s very probable that the spur will be cancelled. The contempt for our city is disgraceful. You’d almost forget that we are one of the countries largest cities and the most central.

The irony is that the people most responsible for shafting Sheffield over the past few years is… Sheffield.

Anybody with half a brain could have told you that you can't run the HS2 mainline into Midland station, and that Meadowhall could've served Sheffield, Barnsley, and Rotherham quicker than Midland, but facts didn't matter to the council, they wanted HS2 at Midland.

So they got the spur at Midland, which is going to end up being slower than going via Meadowhall, and it ends up almost bringing down the devolution deal because Barnsley and Doncaster got short-changed.

 

[si404]

The irony is that the people most responsible for shafting Sheffield over the past few years is… Sheffield.

Absolutely - they fought hard to change the proposals from 3tph to London (2tph calling Toton, 1tph calling Birmingham Interchange), 3tph to Birmingham (all calling Toton), 5tph to Leeds (non-stop), 1tph to Newcastle (calling York, Darlington, Durham) to slower and smaller trains running 2tph Birmingham-Leeds, and 2tph London-Sheffield.

Interestingly, other than 1tph Birmingham - Nottingham and 1tph Bedford - Leeds, Midlands Connect aren't proposing that Toton is out of the way or bad and services should go direct to Nottingham/Derby. They could fairly easily have 1tph London-Derby and 2tph Birmingham-Nottingham via portion-working from Toton and the chord at Toton they want built.

 

[ohgoditsjames]

The irony is that the people most responsible for shafting Sheffield over the past few years is… Sheffield.

Anybody with half a brain could have told you that you can't run the HS2 mainline into Midland station, and that Meadowhall could've served Sheffield, Barnsley, and Rotherham quicker than Midland, but facts didn't matter to the council, they wanted HS2 at Midland.

So they got the spur at Midland, which is going to end up being slower than going via Meadowhall, and it ends up almost bringing down the devolution deal because Barnsley and Doncaster got short-changed.

Incorrect. Sheffield city council didn’t not want HS2 at midland, they wanted it at Sheffield Victoria.

Meadowhall isn’t a great idea for a regional hub. Why might you ask? Well for one thing it’s one of the busiest junctions on the M1, combined with the traffic going to and from Meadowhall shopping centre that sees around 30 million visitors per year, then there’s the traffic from the Arena, centertainment, Ikea, and the retail park. The roads struggle as it is, creating a major station hub there would make it even worse.

Not to mention there wouldn’t be any time benefits for people travelling from Sheffield to Leeds and Sheffield to London etc when you factor in the connection to and from Sheffield Midland. The economic benefit of it being in the city centre (you know where all the businesses are) far out weights that of it being at an out of town shopping centre.

It’s rather amusing that Doncaster council are fighting against Sheffield Midland when they were never going to gain anything from HS2 and have had superior connections to London than Sheffield via the ECML for many many years. The fastest journey from Doncaster to KX is 89 mins, only a few minutes slower than HS2’s planned journey time to Sheffield!

Putting Sheffield’s main station 3 miles away from the city centre would be a bit like putting the Leeds HS2 station near the M1-M62 junction just so it’s closer for people from Wakefield. Sounds like a stupid idea yeah? Well that’s exactly what you’re suggesting with the Meadowhall station.

Toton station is just as bad.

 

[MarkyT]

Incorrect. Sheffield city council didn’t not want HS2 at midland, they wanted it at Sheffield Victoria.

Meadowhall isn’t a great idea for a regional hub. Why might you ask? Well for one thing it’s one of the busiest junctions on the M1, combined with the traffic going to and from Meadowhall shopping centre that sees around 30 million visitors per year, then there’s the traffic from the Arena, centertainment, Ikea, and the retail park. The roads struggle as it is, creating a major station hub there would make it even worse.

Not to mention there wouldn’t be any time benefits for people travelling from Sheffield to Leeds and Sheffield to London etc when you factor in the connection to and from Sheffield Midland. The economic benefit of it being in the city centre (you know where all the businesses are) far out weights that of it being at an out of town shopping centre.

It’s rather amusing that Doncaster council are fighting against Sheffield Midland when they were never going to gain anything from HS2 and have had superior connections to London than Sheffield via the ECML for many many years. The fastest journey from Doncaster to KX is 89 mins, only a few minutes slower than HS2’s planned journey time to Sheffield!

Putting Sheffield’s main station 3 miles away from the city centre would be a bit like putting the Leeds HS2 station near the M1-M62 junction just so it’s closer for people from Wakefield. Sounds like a stupid idea yeah? Well that’s exactly what you’re suggesting with the Meadowhall station.

Toton station is just as bad.

I know opinions differ on the subject, and Meadowhall, although a good parkway location (subject to the traffic) is also a reasonable interchange for rail and other public transport, but overall I agree with your analysis regarding Sheffield. Operators could still extend Sheffield HS2 trains onwards to stop somewhere else in the area as well, to supplement the city centre location as a better road connected parkway. That could be Meadowhall but I would suggest a reconstructed Rotherham Central instead. Toton is a slightly different case as it's not possible to route the new infrastructure anywhere near Nottingham or Derby city centres and still achieve high speeds for non-stops serving cities further north. With the changes proposed by 'Midlands Engine' for a classic connection in the Toton area, direct HS2 trains might yet run from London to Nottingham and Derby, formed by rear portions of trains heading further north dropped at Toton.

 

[al78]

The Green Party opposes HS2, and also new road developments. (They oppose an awful lot more than they ever propose.)

There are roads which took decades to complete due to protests over them. For example the M74 and M77 in/around Glasgow, and the one in the South of England I can't remember the number of of Swampy fame.

It's just not true to say roads aren't opposed.

I never said roads aren't opposed, I said (or rather implied) there is a tendency for people who oppose rail to suck up to road development as though it has no negative side effects, because they use roads but not trains (i.e. ego-centric attitude). As much as I support the Green Party their HS2 stance is one policy I don't agree with.

Swampy was the A34 Newbury bypass.

 

[JonathanH]

As much as I support the Green Party their HS2 stance is one policy I don't agree with.

Difficult paradox to manage between encouraging cheaper and more comprehensive public transport while also seeking to reduce demand for long distance travel and commuting. You could do this by making all rail routes into 'metro' services - in that context HS2 doesn't make sense at all because it encourages long distance travel rather than short distance travel.

 

[Meerkat]

The whole HS2 business case is based on increasing travel. That isn’t good for the environment.

 

[furnessvale]

The whole HS2 business case is based on increasing travel. That isn’t good for the environment.

Surely the case is for changing people's travel habits to more sustainable means?

Without new rail, compulsion would be the only method of reducing car, HGV and air travel and that does not sit well with voters.

 

[LOL The Irony]

They do realise that HS2 will encourage more people to use the train over car, plane & coach?

 

[MarkyT]

The whole HS2 business case is based on increasing travel. That isn’t good for the environment.

But if you're going to have an increase anyway, surely it is better to accommodate it on rail rather than the alternatives of air and private motors. Also presumably some of that growth will be at intermediate stations on the classic routes using better semifast services on the three main lines relieved by the project. Calls on the fast lines at Watford, Milton Keynes, Rugby for example have all been limited severely in number due to the journey time pressure of the fastest high frequency pendolinos pushing the whole flow along. In most cases regular short interval expresses call at different intermediate stations en route in a so called 'skip stop' pattern, resulting in low frequency of service at each, with some added difficulty travelling between such stations. With the fastest services moved to HS2, far more fast line trains can call at theses important growing settlements to meet the suppressed demand and provide a more useful local service. There will also be room for more freights which could help shift large volumes away from trucks over long distances. The green argument against HS2 is fallacious in the extreme. It is the best way to largely wipe out domestic air competition on a number of key corridors, as high speed rail has successfully achieved in many instances in mainland Europe and the Far East.

 

[JonathanH]

They do realise that HS2 will encourage more people to use the train over car, plane & coach?

It would be pretty easy (not popular) to restrict car travel by rationing patrol and eliminate internal plane flights by banning them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would be pretty easy (not popular) to restrict car travel by rationing patrol and eliminate internal plane flights by banning them.

I think if HS2 gets built in full there is a very good case for having it "codeshare" with airlines (as SNCF and DB do) but indeed outright banning domestic air travel other than the Scottish "socially necessary" links to remote islands etc.

 

[JonathanH]

I think if HS2 gets built in full there is a very good case for having it "codeshare" with airlines (as SNCF and DB do) but indeed outright banning domestic air travel other than the Scottish "socially necessary" links to remote islands etc.

Yes, although even with HS2, Aberdeen and Inverness are a long way away from most of the rest of the country. Being able to reach either in a competitive period of time with what air travel offers is a long way off.