Please help! Facing prosecution for an invalid oyster

[Jo81]

They can drop a prosecution at any time, and you can write to them any time, but they may not do anything until the court tells them the conviction is void.

It may help people on here if you say what you were convicted of.

I'm not quite sure what you mean has happened about the declaration. Maybe you mean the staff are setting an appointment for you to make the declaration before magistrates in court, or before a court officer.

So i have been charged with being in a compulsory ticket area without a valid ticket. Under byelaw 17 (1) of the TFL railway byelaw made under paragraph 26 of schedule 11 to the Greater London authority act 1999, and confirmed under section 67 of the transport act 1962.
The declaration has been sent to the magistrates court and they will give me a court date to come in and sign an oath saying I had no prior knowledge of the charge, penalty fare etc. I will then be asked to enter a plea of guilty or not guilty. I'll be seeking legal advice this evening (the solicitor has a drop in centre for free advice) and will see what they say about writing to TFL etc.
The woman I spoke to on the phone at Single Justice said there's absolutely no way it can be settled directly with TFL out of court, I am really hoping this isn't true.
If I plead not guilty I'll have to fight my case (with no solid evidence, only what I've previously mentioned), and if I plead guilty the fine is reduced by 33% and no agro of fighting my case, however I'm very worried that I will have a criminal record

 

[furlong]

Were you interviewed under caution? You'll need the full paperwork from TfL, details from them of what their systems say about the ownership and usage of the Oyster card, and then a witness statement from the staff member who gave you permission to travel by letting you through the gate (though given the length of time that has passed it's possible that they might not remember, but provided you mentioned it as part of your defence at the time, TfL ought to have already identified and interviewed them). One for a solicitor to deal with, I'd suggest, as understanding the best way to navigate various technicalities may be important.

 

[Jo81]

Were you interviewed under caution? You'll need the full paperwork from TfL, details from them of what their systems say about the ownership and usage of the Oyster card, and then a witness statement from the staff member who gave you permission to travel by letting you through the gate (though given the length of time that has passed it's possible that they might not remember, but provided you mentioned it as part of your defence at the time, TfL ought to have already identified and interviewed them). One for a solicitor to deal with, I'd suggest, as understanding the best way to navigate various technicalities may be important.

Hello,
I didn't even realise I'd been interviewed... I gave the man at the station my contact details as he asked for them and he just made a few notes. I explained what had happened at the previous station, however when I called the courts today to find out what had been recorded they told me this hadn't been written down. If they have CCTV from that date it would show me being let through the barriers, I know it's a bit of a stretch but it's all i can think of.

 

[furlong]

So this is why a solicitor may well be worthwhile at this stage - they will know the procedures that are supposed to be followed and what the consequences are in terms of admissibility of evidence and any possible defence.

(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 17(1) or 17(2) if:...
(iii) the Operator or an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

I'd suggest that first there's the question of whether you did or did not have a valid ticket taking the circumstances into account; if the answer is you did not, then there's the question of whether or not what happened is captured under 17(3)(iii) above.

 

[Jo81]

I had a valid ticket, the staff at the underground scanned it with a handheld device and confirmed I had 1 month's travel card on it. but It hadn't been validated for travel, i.e. I hadn't tapped in at Hackney.
I will post any updates after the visit to the solicitors

 

[Hadders]

There is no requirement to tap in if using a Travelcard on Oyster within the Zones covered by the Travelcard.

 

[furlong]

At Hackney it wouldn't scan because it was old and bent, but at your destination it did scan? What happened to the card after that? Did it start working reliably again?

 

[Puffing Devil]

Update: when I rang the courts they submitted a statutory declaration on my behalf, so unfortunately I think I need to go to court and could then be asked to plea. Is there a chance tfl will settle with me out of court before I have to do this?

This is ringing alarm bells with me: you need to swear a declaration either in front of a Commissioner for Oaths or a Magistrate. This cannot be done over the phone. You should check exactly what has happened. I'm thinking they may have accepted that you will be sending in a declaration - it still needs to be made and sent into the court, or you need to make an appointment with the court to make the declaration. If you are already speaking to a solicitor it will be much easier to use that firm to make the declaration.

 

[Jo81]

UPDATE
Today I submitted a new statutory declaration form with a solicitors signature and posted it to the court where I was convicted without my knowledge. I will call tomorrow to confirm they have received the form and that they will be resetting the case.

I was unable to see a solicitor last night as the only lawyers available dealt with immigration, child care or housing issues. They did give me the card of a litigation lawyer who worked there and I called him today, he spent about 30 mins on the phone with me giving me what advice he could (he said I really needed to speak to a criminal lawyer and this wasn't his area of expertise.)

Here's a summary of what he said I need to do:
1. resubmit the statutory declaration form
2.Put in writing to the debt collectors that the case is going through and appeal like process. I will say I have sought legal advice with a solicitor who stated there is no requirement to pay the debt until this process is complete
3.Call the court tomorrow to confirm receipt of form and ask them to inform TFL and the debt collectors that the case is being reset
4. Contact TFL regarding the prosecution. Confirm what happened on the day, and what steps I have taken now that I have been made aware. Ask them to forward me any correspondence that would have gone to my previous address
5. Send a separate letter to TFL as a subject access request and ask that they send all personal data that they have on me. They legally have to reply to this in 28 days and if they don't I can write again and complain to the information commissioner as it is a breach of gdpr. He said I might be able to claim they have wrongfully used my data as I gave my name and address believing it was to pay a fare, but they used it to prosecute me.
(When I called the single justice service to confirm all of the letters that had been sent, she said the very first one was not a penalty fare but a notice to say I was being charged, so they skipped the fare and went straight for prosecution)
6. Once I receive this information, he said I should go to my MP and complain about the way I've been treated by TFL

My charge was for being in a designated ticket area without a ticket, not for evasion or travelling with someone else's ticket. The solicitor stated he thinks I have been wrongfully prosecuted as I entered and exited the ticket barriers with licence (was let through by the staff)
Again, he said I'd probably need a criminal lawyer/expert to be sure, but he questioned whether I could challenge the legislation under which id been charged, since it is a very old legislation act from 1962, and with new types of ticket to travel with, it isn't very clearly defined. Can anyone comment on this?
He said one thing that made him nervous was that I was using an oyster card registered to my friend. If anyone can advise on this I would really appreciate it. Essentially he said there may be some technicality about ticket Vs oyster card, as an oyster is just a method of payment and not a ticket.
To reiterate, the oyster card was registered in my friend's name, she had given it to me prior to this event (it must have been around 8 months prior as it was when we'd been living together). I hadn't realised that she had registered it in her name and honestly never thought to ask, I needed one and she had a spare.
The TICKET however, was a z1-3 monthly travel card which I had put on the oyster within 1 month of the date of the incident. So there is some confusion between who owns the card and who owns the ticket...
He suggested that I have a signed letter from my friend confirming she had given me permission to use her oyster, but said I'd better get the facts first because it might look like we were both using it (which was not the case)

Any help greatly appreciated, thank you so much!!

 

[some bloke]

When I called the single justice service

Have you fulfilled the requirement to get the verdict annulled, mentioned above - to include a plea if the case started with a Single Justice Procedure Notice?

4. Contact TFL regarding the prosecution. Confirm what happened on the day, and what steps I have taken now that I have been made aware.

I suggest you include details, for example a bank statement screenshot, of your paying for the travelcard - the £153 - on a relevant date.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

We're not lawyers here so we probably shouldn't argue with the proper legal advice you've been given, but I think that I would suggest following steps 1 - 5 given by your lawyer - but before going on to step 6, have a good look at what the first 5 steps have produced. It may well be that once TfL are properly back in touch with you, you and they will be able to settle matters in a way that you are happy with (either a small penalty or no penalty at all) - in which case at that point my suggestion would probably be to get the matter settled, then put it behind you and move on.

But it is important to carry out steps 1 - 5!

 

[Jo81]

We're not lawyers here so we probably shouldn't argue with the proper legal advice you've been given, but I think that I would suggest following steps 1 - 5 given by your lawyer - but before going on to step 6, have a good look at what the first 5 steps have produced. It may well be that once TfL are properly back in touch with you, you and they will be able to settle matters in a way that you are happy with (either a small penalty or no penalty at all) - in which case at that point my suggestion would probably be to get the matter settled, then put it behind you and move on.

But it is important to carry out steps 1 - 5!

Hi, thanks for your response.
Yes, it would be after the dust has settled (if at all). This has absolutely been the most stressful experience of my life, so once it's settled I probably will just want to forget about it and go to sleep for a week...
The outcome that I want is to just get it settled outside of court and, if i have to, pay a penalty fare to TFL.

I have read byelaw 17 (under which I was convicted) and it states that:
17. Compulsory Ticket Areas
(1) No person shall enter a compulsory ticket area on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket.
(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person.

(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 17(1) or 17(2) if:
(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey;
or (ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket;
or (iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

So, I'm hoping, this will negate the whole matter of did i have a valid ticket/is it a ticket or an oyster/does it matter if it was registered in my friends' name etc etc.

 

[some bloke]

Hopefully TfL will simply drop the case.

The statutory declaration form says,

"5. Where the charges were tried under the Single Justice Procedure (SJP) you must also respond to the SJP notice in writing at the same time as serving the declaration."

Just to check, did you respond with a plea at the same time as making the stat dec (see instruction 5 on the form, for cases where there was a single justice procedure)?
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...s-being-prosecuted.190598/page-2#post-4200622

Including a plea or notice of intention as to plea is a requirement under the Criminal Procedure Rules, part 24, "if the case began with a written charge and a single justice procedure notice".

http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/criminal/rulesmenu-2015#Anchor7

See 2(b):

 

[Jo81]

Hopefully TfL will simply drop the case.

The statutory declaration form says,

"5. Where the charges were tried under the Single Justice Procedure (SJP) you must also respond to the SJP notice in writing at the same time as serving the declaration."



Including a plea or notice of intention as to plea is a requirement under the Criminal Procedure Rules, part 24, "if the case began with a written charge and a single justice procedure notice".

http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/criminal/rulesmenu-2015#Anchor7

See 2(b):

View attachment 71711

The courts haven't supplied me with any of the correspondence; I never received the SJP notice and so cannot reply to it. I've requested all the correspondence from SJP and theyve said i need to get it from the courts, which I have requested.
The SJP have massively mislead me on this and I wish I hadn't rushed into things through fear

 

[some bloke]

Are you saying the court told you there definitely was an SJPN? If so, including a plea is technically a requirement.

You could call the court tomorrow and ask them
i) to clarify whether there was an SJPN, and
ii) if necessary, to count the plea you send later as being included "at the same time" as the declaration is "served".

If you know the charge on an SJPN was under Byelaw 17 (1), you can submit a plea in response to it. You could add a note saying "I understand from the Court staff [what they have told you]".

If you don't know, it would be sensible to either try to find out from the court or include a plea anyway to ensure you've met the requirement to get the verdict voided. ...below, a poster advised that it's possible to change a not guilty plea to guilty.

 

[some bloke]

Note that the form says "You can ask for help at any magistrates’ court office."

So if you have a general inquiry and the court staff aren't explaining to your satisfaction, you can call another court.

 

[some bloke]

People on here with lots of experience of courts may have better ideas, so hopefully there'll be some input on whether this is a good idea:

My naive suggestion - based on @Hadders' observation that you didn't need to validate the Travelcard in the first place, and the fact that you have evidence relevant to having paid for that month - would be this:

Email the court tonight or before 8am.

Email subject line: "Plea of Not Guilty to accompany Statutory Declaration sent 18/12/2019".

Give reference number, date and details of the conviction (ie Transport for London Byelaw 17(1)), etc, then:

"I wish to submit a plea of "not guilty". Please add this to the Statutory Declaration sent on 18 December.

I have not seen the original Single Justice Procedure Notice, and
[Or, "It is not clear to me whether my case began with a Single Justice Procedure Notice, but in any event"]
I am submitting this plea to ensure that the requirements for the Statutory Declaration are met.

Thank you very much."

My naive hope is that you have then fulfilled the requirement.

Then after the office opens, call them.

 

[Jo81]

People on here with lots of experience of courts may have better ideas, so hopefully there'll be some input on whether this is a good idea:

My naive suggestion - based on @Hadders' observation that you didn't need to validate the Travelcard in the first place, and the fact that you have evidence relevant to having paid for that month - would be this:

Email the court tonight or before 8am.

Email subject line: "Plea of Not Guilty to accompany Statutory Declaration sent 18/12/2019".

Give reference number, date and details of the conviction (ie Transport for London Byelaw 17(1)), etc, then:

"I wish to submit a plea of "not guilty". Please add this to the Statutory Declaration sent on 18 December.

I have not seen the original Single Justice Procedure Notice, and
[Or, "It is not clear to me whether my case began with a Single Justice Procedure Notice, but in any event"]
I am submitting this plea to ensure that the requirements for the Statutory Declaration are met.

Thank you very much."

My naive hope is that you have then fulfilled the requirement.

Then after the office opens, call them.

Thanks for the advice. I've sent the email, hopefully it can't hurt??

Can't wait for this nightmare to be over, thank you and everyone for your help so far!

 

[furlong]

Did your friend have an Oyster card of their own, also registered in their name, during this period and did it have a season ticket on it? If so, this would help to rebut any claim that you were sharing the use of the season ticket.

 

[some bloke]

Perhaps this might be worth some attention, in context:

They might be unhappy if your flatmate said it was their Travelcard when applying for the refund

Unfortunately she had to say it was hers to get the refund

 

[jumble]

UPDATE


My charge was for being in a designated ticket area without a ticket, not for evasion or travelling with someone else's ticket. The solicitor stated he thinks I have been wrongfully prosecuted as I entered and exited the ticket barriers with licence (was let through by the staff)
!!

I am not a lawyer but I do not understand what your solicitor is saying
If I have understood correctly you presented a travelcard which was valid in zone 1 to 3
You travelled on a journey between zone 2 and 1
You say that you are being prosecuted because the travelcard was not validated
Hadders has correctly advised you in post 39 that this is a fairy story in this circumstance so the big question is why are they prosecuting you?
( please note however that section 3.3.1 of TFL conditions of carriage states are that you must touch in and out when using a travelcard valid in your zones but my understanding is that there is no sanction if you ignore this. However I am beginning to question this understanding as being wrong as a result of what you are telling us)
Interestingly 3.3.1 states if you have a negative PAYG balance then the travelcard is not valid which is something I did not know.
Is this your issue by any chance?

Are you certain that the charge of being in a designated area without a ticket arises because the only ticket you held and presented belongs to someone else or you had a negative PAYG?
I think you need to find out from TFL exactly why they are prosecuting you as it is far from clear at the moment.

 

[Jo81]

People on here with lots of experience of courts may have better ideas, so hopefully there'll be some input on whether this is a good idea:

My naive suggestion - based on @Hadders' observation that you didn't need to validate the Travelcard in the first place, and the fact that you have evidence relevant to having paid for that month - would be this:

Email the court tonight or before 8am.

Email subject line: "Plea of Not Guilty to accompany Statutory Declaration sent 18/12/2019".

Give reference number, date and details of the conviction (ie Transport for London Byelaw 17(1)), etc, then:

"I wish to submit a plea of "not guilty". Please add this to the Statutory Declaration sent on 18 December.

I have not seen the original Single Justice Procedure Notice, and
[Or, "It is not clear to me whether my case began with a Single Justice Procedure Notice, but in any event"]
I am submitting this plea to ensure that the requirements for the Statutory Declaration are met.

Thank you very much."

My naive hope is that you have then fulfilled the requirement.

Then after the office opens, call them.

The stat dec was delivered this morning at 9am. I called the courts first thing (I can't call lavender hill directly, it goes to a generic courts number) and the woman i spoke to said I will hear in 24 hours from the court confirming that it has been actioned, if not i need to call back.
I called again at 2pm just to try and chase it up, and a different woman said that I wouldn't hear from them until they had booked in a date for me to attend a statutory declaration hearing, and that this would most certainly not be within 24 hours. She was a lot ruder than the first woman and wouldn't help me at all.
the most pressing issue is that the courts contact Collectica to stop them harassing me and coming to my house, and I thought that would be confirmed today. I feel completely at a loss, I keep getting conflicting information and I have no idea what to do next.

If anyone has any advice I would appreciate it so much

thanks

 

[some bloke]

the woman i spoke to said I will hear in 24 hours from the court confirming that it has been actioned

a different woman said that I wouldn't hear from them until they had booked in a date for me to attend a statutory declaration hearing, and that this would most certainly not be within 24 hours.

As the form says "You can ask for help at any magistrates' court office", it seems reasonable to me that they should confirm:

a) whether they are aware of both the declaration and plea,
and
b) whether they are treating the emailed plea as submitted with the form.

Hopefully if you call again asking those specific points someone will be more helpful.

If your case didn't begin with an SJPN, then as you can see from the form, you didn't need to submit a plea.

Perhaps email them, saying:

"I would be grateful for advice as to whether, having emailed a plea yesterday, I have fulfilled the requirements for magistrates to annul the verdict.

Please advise what I should do if this is not the case, so that I can make sure the requirements are met."

the most pressing issue is that the courts contact Collectica to stop them harassing me and coming to my house

What was the last communication from Collectica?

 

[jumble]

The stat dec was delivered this morning at 9am. I called the courts first thing (I can't call lavender hill directly, it goes to a generic courts number) and the woman i spoke to said I will hear in 24 hours from the court confirming that it has been actioned, if not i need to call back.
I called again at 2pm just to try and chase it up, and a different woman said that I wouldn't hear from them until they had booked in a date for me to attend a statutory declaration hearing, and that this would most certainly not be within 24 hours. She was a lot ruder than the first woman and wouldn't help me at all.
the most pressing issue is that the courts contact Collectica to stop them harassing me and coming to my house, and I thought that would be confirmed today. I feel completely at a loss, I keep getting conflicting information and I have no idea what to do next.

If anyone has any advice I would appreciate it so much

thanks

I am not a lawyer but if you go and look at pepipoo they always advise doing a stat declaration at a solicitors and not the courts
I have no idea whether this is sound advice but if i were doing a stat dec I would be following this advice
The reason is that I would get it done at once and have something to show the bailiffs if they came calling as I doubt they will be enforcing if shown a valid stat dec

 

[Jo81]

I am not a lawyer but if you go and look at pepipoo they always advise doing a stat declaration at a solicitors and not the courts
I have no idea whether this is sound advice but if i were doing a stat dec I would be following this advice
The reason is that I would get it done at once and have something to show the bailiffs if they came calling as I doubt they will be enforcing if shown a valid stat dec

Yes I had it signed and stamped in a solicitors office, and then it has to be sent to the courts. I've sent it via recorded delivery (and it was delivered 9am today), so now i ned confirmation that they have actioned it.
On the form it clearly states: the defendants declaration can be made before anyone who is authorised to hear it (eg a solicitor) ... the person who hears the declaration need not enquire into the truth of it.
It also states that i need to send the completed declaration to the court office for the magistrates court where the trial took place

I'm going to try calling Lavender Hill directly tomorrow, failing that I will call the generic courts number and keep pushing them to update me, quote the form etc. I should not need to have a statutory declaration hearing, as I have made the declaration before the solicitor and now it is up to the courts to inform the relevant parties that the trial is now void.

 

[Jo81]

I am not a lawyer but I do not understand what your solicitor is saying
If I have understood correctly you presented a travelcard which was valid in zone 1 to 3
You travelled on a journey between zone 2 and 1
You say that you are being prosecuted because the travelcard was not validated
Hadders has correctly advised you in post 39 that this is a fairy story in this circumstance so the big question is why are they prosecuting you?
( please note however that section 3.3.1 of TFL conditions of carriage states are that you must touch in and out when using a travelcard valid in your zones but my understanding is that there is no sanction if you ignore this. However I am beginning to question this understanding as being wrong as a result of what you are telling us)
Interestingly 3.3.1 states if you have a negative PAYG balance then the travelcard is not valid which is something I did not know.
Is this your issue by any chance?

Are you certain that the charge of being in a designated area without a ticket arises because the only ticket you held and presented belongs to someone else or you had a negative PAYG?
I think you need to find out from TFL exactly why they are prosecuting you as it is far from clear at the moment.

Hi,

All I know is what they've told me: that I have been charged with being in a compulsory ticket area without a valid ticket under byelaw 17 (1)
There is a byelaw which states a person will not be in breach of this byelaw if an authorised person opens the barrier for them, which is what happened to me. I was allowed through the barrier and so reasonably believed i had permission to travel.
I do not have the information TFL submitted to the courts, I have to contact them and request this back. I will be posting a draft of my letter this evening for anyone to comment on.

 

[Puffing Devil]

The court service has been cut to the bone and the standard of support has diminished.

You do not have to attend a Statutory Declaration hearing, you have submitted the SD and that is the end of the matter. The ball is now in the hands of TfL who must re-start the prosecution process again.

If the bailiffs call again, advise them that you have submitted an SD and that they should contact the court. Unfortunately, people lie to bailiffs and they will be very reluctant to believe anything until it has been confirmed by the court.

 

[some bloke]

you have submitted the SD and that is the end of the matter.

Provided the emailed plea is either unnecessary (because the case didn't begin with an SJPN) or accepted as submitted at the same time?

 

[jumble]

The court service has been cut to the bone and the standard of support has diminished.

You do not have to attend a Statutory Declaration hearing, you have submitted the SD and that is the end of the matter. The ball is now in the hands of TfL who must re-start the prosecution process again.

If the bailiffs call again, advise them that you have submitted an SD and that they should contact the court. Unfortunately, people lie to bailiffs and they will be very reluctant to believe anything until it has been confirmed by the court.

I would add to this that you may want to have a copy of the SD and the signed for recorded proof to offer any bailiff to examine and take away if they wish

Legally it may make no difference but pragmatically might do so as a bailiff does not particularly want to remove goods and then have to bring them back if the court order has been annulled

 

[Jo81]

The court service has been cut to the bone and the standard of support has diminished.

You do not have to attend a Statutory Declaration hearing, you have submitted the SD and that is the end of the matter. The ball is now in the hands of TfL who must re-start the prosecution process again.

If the bailiffs call again, advise them that you have submitted an SD and that they should contact the court. Unfortunately, people lie to bailiffs and they will be very reluctant to believe anything until it has been confirmed by the court.

Thanks for your reply, that is encouraging. However I called the courts again this morning to confirm receipt and action of the form, they said that it was too soon to chase it up and that I would have to wait until they had reviewed the form and made a decision about whether to accept it before contacting the baliffs and TFL.

I am emailing the enforcement agents today with an attached copy of the signed form, and a request that they confirm they will cease to contact me.

does anyone know how to add read receipt to Gmail?? when i click on more options it doesn't come up, and i want to make sure they have read my email