I agree. For me leg-room is paramount, with seat comfort being secondary: there’s no point having a better padded seat if I’m sitting bolt upright and my knees are still jammed into the metal back of the seat in front of me.
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CrossCountry Voyagers: No interior decor change in 12 years and counting
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I agree. For me leg-room is paramount, with seat comfort being secondary: there’s no point having a better padded seat if I’m sitting bolt upright and my knees are still jammed into the metal back of the seat in front of me.
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greatvoyager
Established Member
Being tall, I'm used to a lack of legroom, so they can give all the legroom they like, if the seat is too hard it'll put too much strain on my back.
For an XC refurbishment, they need comfy seats, that is if they can find a way for more legroom without decreasing capacity too much.
supervc-10
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I've always found the Voyagers reasonably comfortable. They're not the best- but they're not bad at all. They just need a good clean and some doubling up!
greatvoyager
Established Member
I'd second you there.
Currently sat in standard airline on a GWR 802 at Reading and immediately to my left is an XC221 going to Manchester.
Not only is the 221 full, but doing a like for like its appalling how cramped the seating is compared to my spacious 802 with generous legroom and pull down table space. The 802 is also busy with lots of baggage, but not full and everyone looks relaxed and comfortable. The 221 looks like torture.
I take back what I said before. Whoever takes over the XC franchise should commit to replacing with 80x. The Voyagers are an embarrassment for long distance intercity. (yes, I've been on them many times)
(was on an EMR HST earlier which was lovely and comfy too)
Not only is the 221 full, but doing a like for like its appalling how cramped the seating is compared to my spacious 802 with generous legroom and pull down table space. The 802 is also busy with lots of baggage, but not full and everyone looks relaxed and comfortable. The 221 looks like torture.
I take back what I said before. Whoever takes over the XC franchise should commit to replacing with 80x. The Voyagers are an embarrassment for long distance intercity. (yes, I've been on them many times)
(was on an EMR HST earlier which was lovely and comfy too)
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greatvoyager
Established Member
When I travel between Bristol and Plymouth or York to Edinburgh, I'd rather have the option to not travel on an IET when I catch a train. I wouldn't say voyagers are an embarrassment, as I've been using them constantly since they were introduced. Tired interior and in need of a refurb, yes, I completely agree, but even if they ordered 80x units, the remaining 22x units are going to be available sooner.
The best we can hope for is the cascading of the Avanti voyagers. Even then, and with a full fleet refurb, the rolling stock will still be inadequate to meet demand, which is a shame as I like the Voyagers loco performance. Personally the EMR Meridians should be cascaded too, but that's only likely if EMR commit to a total replacement with 80x.
greatvoyager
Established Member
I agree, I think that all the remaining 22x units should go to XC. As well as the increase in capacity, that could also allow for more slack to enable the fleet to be refurbished nicely.
greatvoyager
Established Member
Also, do EMR have a choice? I thought that they were required to replace the entire mainline fleet with new stock?
If that happens, then 222s can move to XC and be refurbished too. One thing I would say is that the XC voyagers don't seem as dirty or dusty as the EMR meridians do.
Kilopylae
Member
^ this. They're much nicer than the new I.E.T.s, at any rate.
greatvoyager
Established Member
I agree, the voyager seating is very comfortable (if you can get a seat), but then again probably still needs to be replaced.
I disagree. IET's are let down by a hard base on the seat, and the current diesel mode can't match a Voyager. But on electric and capacity they beat Voyagers and Meridians. I would imagine Hitachi have a design for an 805 that will outperform a Voyager /Meridian already and awaiting signature on the contract for the next XC franchise.
Kilopylae
Member
I was speaking exclusively on passenger comfort, though.
The class 804 being built for EMR (supposedly) matches a 222.
Let's hope so. I did a trip up on on EMR Meridian and back on a HST. The Meridian was cramped and uncomfortable by comparison, as well as standing only.
The 80x is a good platform and the future of 'Intercity'. The Voyagers and Meridians are good performance wise, but inadequate for present and future passenger numbers.
greatvoyager
Established Member
Unless they all go to XC, which should help capacity.
ATW Alex 101
Established Member
I agree. Voyagers are lovely trains to ride on and I’ve always found I enjoy riding them more than other trains.
greatvoyager
Established Member
Totally agreed, the most comfortable trains I've ever been on, but it would be nice if XC did a better job in keeping them clean and tidy.
Mitchell Hurd
On Moderation
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If I'm honest, I had mixed feelings about the 20 Voyagers going to XC from Avanti.
However, capacity is what's desperately needed.
If it was me I'd be very tempted to do this: Transfer the 20 Voyagers from Avanti to XC and, in turn, run 5 x 10-car Voyagers on the HST diagrams, use the HST's on the 5-car Voyager diagrams, use the 5-car Voyager diagrams on the 4-car Voyager diagrams then use 4-car Voyagers to make 8-coach Voyagers.
One HST diagram I'd have as a result would be the 08:37 Penzance to Glasgow Central - on Fridays (jot sure about other weekdays), I've seen that reported full on Twitter. Not surprising as the train runs through the South West in the morning, Bristol at lunchtime and Cheltenham just after lunch. It also arrives in Yorkshire mid to late afternoon plus Newcastle at tea time and Edinburgh around 19:10.
An HST on the 08:37 Penzance to Glasgow would also allow an extra 2 hours for the train to get back to Edinburgh.
Sorry if I've mentioned this next bit on here but a member of XC staff told me on the 02/01/20 that we're getting Virgin's Voyagers - obviously Virgin is now Avanti.
You watch, just as many of us will be happy and settled with the idea of Voyagers from Avanti will not be happy if it's said we have to wait for new trains in say 2024 to solve the XC capacity crisis
!
However, capacity is what's desperately needed.
If it was me I'd be very tempted to do this: Transfer the 20 Voyagers from Avanti to XC and, in turn, run 5 x 10-car Voyagers on the HST diagrams, use the HST's on the 5-car Voyager diagrams, use the 5-car Voyager diagrams on the 4-car Voyager diagrams then use 4-car Voyagers to make 8-coach Voyagers.
One HST diagram I'd have as a result would be the 08:37 Penzance to Glasgow Central - on Fridays (jot sure about other weekdays), I've seen that reported full on Twitter. Not surprising as the train runs through the South West in the morning, Bristol at lunchtime and Cheltenham just after lunch. It also arrives in Yorkshire mid to late afternoon plus Newcastle at tea time and Edinburgh around 19:10.
An HST on the 08:37 Penzance to Glasgow would also allow an extra 2 hours for the train to get back to Edinburgh.
Sorry if I've mentioned this next bit on here but a member of XC staff told me on the 02/01/20 that we're getting Virgin's Voyagers - obviously Virgin is now Avanti.
You watch, just as many of us will be happy and settled with the idea of Voyagers from Avanti will not be happy if it's said we have to wait for new trains in say 2024 to solve the XC capacity crisis
!
greatvoyager
Established Member
Personally I'd be happy with that, the capacity issue needs to be addressed, as does a possible refurbishment.If I'm honest, I had mixed feelings about the 20 Voyagers going to XC from Avanti.
However, capacity is what's desperately needed.
If it was me I'd be very tempted to do this: Transfer the 20 Voyagers from Avanti to XC and, in turn, run 5 x 10-car Voyagers on the HST diagrams, use the HST's on the 5-car Voyager diagrams, use the 5-car Voyager diagrams on the 4-car Voyager diagrams then use 4-car Voyagers to make 8-coach Voyagers.
One HST diagram I'd have as a result would be the 08:37 Penzance to Glasgow Central - on Fridays (jot sure about other weekdays), I've seen that reported full on Twitter. Not surprising as the train runs through the South West in the morning, Bristol at lunchtime and Cheltenham just after lunch. It also arrives in Yorkshire mid to late afternoon plus Newcastle at tea time and Edinburgh around 19:10.
An HST on the 08:37 Penzance to Glasgow would also allow an extra 2 hours for the train to get back to Edinburgh.
Sorry if I've mentioned this next bit on here but a member of XC staff told me on the 02/01/20 that we're getting Virgin's Voyagers - obviously Virgin is now Avanti.
You watch, just as many of us will be happy and settled with the idea of Voyagers from Avanti will not be happy if it's said we have to wait for new trains in say 2024 to solve the XC capacity crisis
I too have a soft spot for the voyagers if it wasn’t for their chronic lack of I think they would be a very popular train, but the XC ones really could do with a touch of TLC.
The problem with either getting the Avanti class 221s or EMR class 222 neither are a perfect answer as it would mean only having a fleet of mainly 5 car units when many services need more. If you run them as 2x4 car units it needs extra train crew. The best solution would possibly be to reform units into 6 or 7 car units but this would mean wasting some units. There really doesn’t appear to be any perfect solution.
The problem with either getting the Avanti class 221s or EMR class 222 neither are a perfect answer as it would mean only having a fleet of mainly 5 car units when many services need more. If you run them as 2x4 car units it needs extra train crew. The best solution would possibly be to reform units into 6 or 7 car units but this would mean wasting some units. There really doesn’t appear to be any perfect solution.
sprinterguy
Established Member
10 car Voyagers have issues at short platforms at Chesterfield, Burton (217m) and Totnes (178m Up/193m Down). Based on current diagrams, with Avanti's twenty 221s it's possible for the majority of Scotland - South West services to be operated by 8 car pairs of 220s and everything else to be formed of 5 car 221s, possibly without having to retain the HSTs at all.
coradiafan2000
Member
Forgive me if I'm being slow or not realising something, but can't they just selectively open the doors? Or is that something Voyagers are incapable of doing?
sprinterguy
Established Member
As far as I am aware, 220s and 221s are not fitted with Selective Door Operation (Unlike the newer 222s).
EDIT: After some further research it turns out it is fitted but isn't currently in use.
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coradiafan2000
Member
Ah. A double Voyager could still only open the doors in one unit though right? Then passengers for Chesterfield etc could be told to board the front or rear five coaches?
greatvoyager
Established Member
I've seen that happen at Dawlish and Teignmouth, the rear coach overhangs on double formation trains.
pro4600
Member
- Joined
- 6 Nov 2011
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- 54
How many sets and cars for the entire voyager fleet? (220,221,222)
sprinterguy
Established Member
4-car 220/221: 38 units, 152 carriages (All with Crosscountry)
5-car 221: 40 units, 200 carriages (20 with Crosscountry, 20 with Avanti)
7-car 222: 6 units, 42 carriages (With EMR)
5-car 222: 17 units, 85 carriages (With EMR)
4-car 222: 4 units, 16 carriages (With EMR)
Total 495 carriages:
136 carriages class 220
216 carriages class 221
143 carriages class 222
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greatvoyager
Established Member
Is the guard also able to open just their local door if required?
pro4600
Member
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- 6 Nov 2011
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- 54
Would that be enough to cover all xc diagrams inc Cardiff and stansted?
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