West Lothian buses

[ScotRail158725]

The train has all the potential to have 100% of the passengers, but this has been blown by ScotRail for the reasons I said. Nobody has said Linlithgow should get calls that other stations shouldn’t, but it is a station with well over a million passengers (in the top 20 in Scotland) that suffers from terrible peak overcrowding. Yes, peak, aka when it matters, I’m not sure why you’re trying to be smart with the off-peak stuff. You can waffle all you want about 7-8 minute waits but the facts are the Westbound service has been downgraded. There also isn’t 9 trains an hour, there is 8, 4 of which stops at Linlithgow, but agendas etc. All of these factors add up, and it’s part of the reason why the EX2 has been so successful. People are fed up of ScotRail.



And with trains at Linlithgow I think you’ll find this absolutely isn’t the case.

well it is the case, ive done loads of peak E&G runs in both directions and especially towards the very front its always half full

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

well it is the case, ive done loads of peak E&G runs in both directions and especially towards the very front its always half full

I see it all the time with most trains/customers without reservations, the majority pile into the section closest to the platform entrance.

The ultimate thing is with trains nobody is guaranteed a seat unless you have booked one where you can and the company has a policy that covers that. This has been the case on the railways for years and will never change. Trains are designed for people to both sit and stand.

Stopping patterns are not easy to get. You have to have the paths to do it and clearly the Dunblane’s can no longer stop at Linlithgow due to the fact the xx:00 and XX:30 Queen St expresses would catch up with it and then that has a knock on everywhere else. In this case the Alloa-Glasgow Queen St (all stops) would get in front of it and the express train would arrive into Glasgow around 12-15 mins late, due to the fact that it kept getting stopped and therefore it essentially could have done all stops.

The turnaround times are bad enough as it is with ScotRail on the trains heading West. In order to have the Dunblane’s calling at Linlithgow again you would need to create more passing loops or increase the number of tracks from 2 to 4. Neither of these seem likely to happen. The only proposed plan affecting that service is the potential electrification to Perth and extending them up there.

Can the train service from Linlithgow be ‘improved’? Not with the current infrastructure. ScotRail has far bigger improvements to make elsewhere in the network that it has promised. Only 11 of the refurbished HST’s have been delivered (10 in service) and so improvements to Fife/The Borders etc are way behind schedule and these passengers often are left behind never mind not getting a seat.

The EX2 is cheaper and you are guaranteed a seat. It’s slower, more likely to run late.

I’ve not had the time to look at it but I reckon the season ticket cost per minute for the train is cheaper compared to the cheapest fare week/month ticket cost per minute on the EX2.

 

[Jordan Adam]

I see it all the time with most trains/customers without reservations, the majority pile into the section closest to the platform entrance.

Exactly this. It's the same even up here, i know when going to Edinburgh or Glasgow that if i sit in the middle or rear it'll get really busy at Dundee where as the front is generally better as it's further away from the platform entrance.

 

[overthewater]

Whats going to happen once Winchburgh station opens?

I see it all the time with most trains/customers without reservations, the majority pile into the section closest to the platform entrance.

The ultimate thing is with trains nobody is guaranteed a seat unless you have booked one where you can and the company has a policy that covers that. This has been the case on the railways for years and will never change. Trains are designed for people to both sit and stand.

Stopping patterns are not easy to get. You have to have the paths to do it and clearly the Dunblane’s can no longer stop at Linlithgow due to the fact the xx:00 and XX:30 Queen St expresses would catch up with it and then that has a knock on everywhere else. In this case the Alloa-Glasgow Queen St (all stops) would get in front of it and the express train would arrive into Glasgow around 12-15 mins late, due to the fact that it kept getting stopped and therefore it essentially could have done all stops.

The turnaround times are bad enough as it is with ScotRail on the trains heading West. In order to have the Dunblane’s calling at Linlithgow again you would need to create more passing loops or increase the number of tracks from 2 to 4. Neither of these seem likely to happen. The only proposed plan affecting that service is the potential electrification to Perth and extending them up there.

Can the train service from Linlithgow be ‘improved’? Not with the current infrastructure. ScotRail has far bigger improvements to make elsewhere in the network that it has promised. Only 11 of the refurbished HST’s have been delivered (10 in service) and so improvements to Fife/The Borders etc are way behind schedule and these passengers often are left behind never mind not getting a seat.

The EX2 is cheaper and you are guaranteed a seat. It’s slower, more likely to run late.

I’ve not had the time to look at it but I reckon the season ticket cost per minute for the train is cheaper compared to the cheapest fare week/month ticket cost per minute on the EX2.

 

[cammyeaston]

I am a conductor who regularly works the line through Linlithgow. Since the introduction of 8 car services, I'd argue that we no longer suffer from "terrible overcrowding" at all. The only standing passengers are from Linlithgow to Edinburgh and the majority of the time (I walk the length of the train as part of my job remember, so I'm quite qualified to say this) there are numerous empty seats on departure from Linlithgow towards the mid to rear sections of the train.

People don't want to walk up to them. There are also often single seats in the forward carriages however people don't want to sit next to other people and choose to stand instead. If you have 10 people making this choice that could give the illusion of overcrowding, but it is in no way '"terrible" as you gave described.

The seats are there for *most* passengers however many simply choose not to use them.

The main idea of this discussion was regarding Edinburgh - Linlithgow commuter traffic to I fail to see how this flow has been downgraded? As previously stated there are 4 departures an hour, each with a minimum of three carriages and all get to Edinburgh Waverley inside of 25 minutes. The bus cannot compete with that in a month of Sundays.

It is a pain that Dunblane services no longer call however that has been to the clear advantage of passengers travelling between Polmont/Linlithgow and Edinburgh as they have basically an empty train to board instead of one packed with Stirling and Larbert commuters.

There is a "bigger picture" motion at play here. Linlithgow is, IMO, well served by ScotRail with the improvements delivered, granted they were late but that was to expected wasn't it?

 

[etetetetet]

Daily user of Linlithgow train station here; overcrowding has become less of an issue on the trains since the recent timetable changes. The trains can be bad still at peak times but it's much improved than even a year ago. I use the train mostly because of the time benefit and being able to get off at Park, if I so desire. I've used EX2 and while it is a fine service, especially for those who don't live near the station, anyone within a close enough distance will choose the train for the time advantage. I know lots of people from Linlithgow and most stick to the train for the benefit of time. The crowding is bad if you get on at the middle, because people love to just stand in the train and not move up to find a seat.

Overall the EX2 is not a bad service and it has it's uses, and I actually would use it more often if I went into the city centre more often. But for speed getting in and out, which is especially important to me when i'm leaving at 6pm and just want to get home, the train's gonna be favourable.

 

[CM]

I live in Linlithgow Bridge and the EX2 will always win for me. The train just ran out of chances, it was unreliable, overcrowded and a total rip off for close to 10 years. We were constantly promised improvements that have never come, and to be honest I value a seat, price, and no weekly shenanigans over journey time.

What an abomination of a post.

The amount of cars a train has is absolutely not irrelevant. I also never said their hadn’t been improvements, just that the improvements were not enough. Linlithgow has not seen a frequency increase in either direction, but has seen 2tph of its westbound service downgraded. It already has terrible overcrowding with 4tph into Edinburgh and the modest increase in capacity hasn’t proved enough. Therefore it’s quite easy to see why a lot of passengers are switching to the EX2.

The train really should have 100% of all passengers, but horrendous timetabling, poor reliability and overcrowding has put people off.

The part of your post that I've highlighted in the bold text where you clearly said that no improvements have been made. Best check what you say first before you start saying peoples posts are an "abomination"...

Any time I've used the E&G line since it was electrified I've always managed to get a seat because I'm actually willing to walk up the platforms at Queen Street/Edinburgh to the front end of the train, unlike the people who just cram on the rear 3 or 4 coaches because they can't be bothered to walk the length of themselves.

 

[etetetetet]

The part of your post that I've highlighted in the bold text where you clearly said that no improvements have been made. Best check what you say first before you start saying peoples posts are an "abomination"...

Any time I've used the E&G line since it was electrified I've always managed to get a seat because I'm actually willing to walk up the platforms at Queen Street/Edinburgh to the front end of the train, unlike the people who just cram on the rear 3 or 4 coaches because they can't be bothered to walk the length of themselves.

This happens every day I use the train. Nobody bothers to walk down the back. The only exception i've noticed is when one of the disabled/first class carts are at the back, and it's a rush to get that one seat on the train that's a single...

 

[Driver362]

despite heating and some daytime reliability problems I have done the same. I will never go back to ScotRail’s shambolic underserved overcrowded Linlithgow ‘service’. The EX2 is much better.

I'm an Ex 2 driver. Re: heat just ask if your too hot or cold for me or my colleagues to turn it up or down. For the most part we just guess using outside temp. Putting it up or down a few degrees really isn't a problem

 

[herb21]

Exactly point 2. Convenience and journey time (door to door) means it works for you. Where a direct comparison exists, the train usually wins. The bus usually has to have a USP, like serving Springfield.

We are on the same page then, at the end of the day, most customers go for what gives them the best "deal" taking all those points into consideration.

 

[Observer]

In this week's Notices and Proceedings, it's been a long time coming for them.

Public Inquiry (81182) to be held at Level 6 (Edinburgh), EH1 3EG, The Stamp Office, 10 Waterloo Place, Edinburgh, on 5 February 2020 commencing at 10:00

PM0003023 SN E & M HORSBURGH LTD
Director(s): MARK HORSBURGH, ERIC HORSBURGH
180 UPHALL STATION ROAD, PUMPHERSTON, LIVINGSTON, EH53 0PD

S16 - Consider attaching of varying conditions under Section 16 (The Public Passenger Vehicles Act 1981)
S17 - Consideration of disciplinary action under Section 17 (The Public Passenger Vehicles Act 1981)
S26 - Consideration of disciplinary action under Section 26 (The Transport Act 1985)
S28 - Consideration of disciplinary action under Section 28 (The Transport Act 1985)

TM Public Inquiry
(Case ID: 425896, Public Inquiry ID: 91270) for MARK ALEXANDER HORSBURGH to be held at Level 6 (Edinburgh), EH1 3EG, The Stamp Office, 10 Waterloo Place, Edinburgh, on 5 February 2020 commencing at 10:00
Article 6 of Regulation (EC) No 1071/2009

 

[scotrail158713]

I'm an Ex 2 driver. Re: heat just ask if your too hot or cold for me or my colleagues to turn it up or down. For the most part we just guess using outside temp. Putting it up or down a few degrees really isn't a problem

That’s good to know as apparently most buses heat can’t be controlled by the driver

 

[Jordan Adam]

That’s good to know as apparently most buses heat can’t be controlled by the driver

Buses and coaches are different however.

 

[Bluebirdscot66]

That’s good to know as apparently most buses heat can’t be controlled by the driver

That will be only because those coaches probably have separate heating controls for saloon and overhead air conditioning , other buses , some have only a demister control and the saloon is auto controlled.

 

[scotrail158713]

Buses and coaches are different however.

That will be only because those coaches probably have separate heating controls for saloon and overhead air conditioning , other buses , some have only a demister control and the saloon is auto controlled.

Yeah. It might just surprise some passengers though as when you’re on most service buses it’s a case of the driver having no control over the heating - obviously the EX2 is a coach so a bit different however that might not occur to some passengers.

 

[Scotrail88]

With the Horsburgh public inquiry coming up what’s the view on how it will go - is revoking if license likely??

If they are curtailed or revoked, it would be interesting to see who picks up their work.

don’t think they have any commercial services left so would all be council tenders

 

[overthewater]

Council tenders are about to go out, and this could go against them.

 

[Observer]

With the Horsburgh public inquiry coming up what’s the view on how it will go - is revoking if license likely??

If they are curtailed or revoked, it would be interesting to see who picks up their work.

don’t think they have any commercial services left so would all be council tenders

And yet they're still winning contracts, seemingly picking up three school runs in Falkirk in March due to operators handing some back, according to the same N&P listing the PI.

They're probably going to get a curtailment that won't amount to much or a silly fine. It's surprising how long it's taken for this to take place considering the amount of incidents.

 

[Bus9120UK]

Lothian has tweeted to a customer that they are looking at introducing a pass for West Lothian customers in future. https://twitter.com/on_lothianbuses/status/1224385882335084546

 

[Jordan Adam]

Lothian has tweeted to a customer that they are looking at introducing a pass for West Lothian customers in future. https://twitter.com/on_lothianbuses/status/1224385882335084546

Haven't they said that since 2018 though... I won't be convinced that they are introducing one until they actually do.

 

[scotrail158713]

Lothian has tweeted to a customer that they are looking at introducing a pass for West Lothian customers in future. https://twitter.com/on_lothianbuses/status/1224385882335084546

I’ll believe it when I see it. ECB have said that since August 2016.

 

[Driver362]

Buses and coaches are different however.

Yes they are, but I'm pretty sure the poster was talking about Ex2, which is 100% coach operation as you know. And that's what I thought I was replying too? Not the HVAC difference between coach and bus?

 

[Jordan Adam]

Yes they are, but I'm pretty sure the poster was talking about Ex2, which is 100% coach operation as you know. And that's what I thought I was replying too? Not the HVAC difference between coach and bus?

The poster was making the point about how it was good to see that on the coaches it could be manually controlled as on the buses it's automated. However on most coaches it can be manually controlled anyway, even most Stagecoach vehicles. Whereas pretty much all new buses the saloon heating/ventilation systems are all automated. I could've and probably should have elaborated further at the time, but i was just making the point that it's normal for it to not be entirely automated on coaches.

As for the difference between a bus and coach, at a legal perspective it just comes down to the seating type, if belts are fitted and general certifications etc, however i think most sane people could define a bus from a coach. For example ECB's B8RLEs (i believe) are certified as coaches, however it's pretty clear that in reality they're actually just buses with coach style (DP) seats.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

I’ll believe it when I see it. ECB have said that since August 2016.

How much hassle does it take to introduce a pass for different zones? LCB back in the day had one just for the 113 and then the launch of the 104! ECB now has two extra zones which shouldn’t be too much hassle to add on and the Current LCB network has three more zones to incorporate!

 

[overthewater]

Greedy! If Mcgills can do it then surly lothian can. If LCB did I think LCB would win this war.

 

[scotrail158713]

How much hassle does it take to introduce a pass for different zones? LCB back in the day had one just for the 113 and then the launch of the 104! ECB now has two extra zones which shouldn’t be too much hassle to add on and the Current LCB network has three more zones to incorporate!

Yep. The passes from LCB days still exist but ECB clearly don’t want people buying them as they’re not advertised in the slightest.

 

[Weemidi135]

Yep. The passes from LCB days still exist but ECB clearly don’t want people buying them as they’re not advertised in the slightest.

there not available to buy anymore unless you already have one

 

[TheEastCoaster]

there not available to buy anymore unless you already have one

Well it seems like a waste to increase the price on them if they still don’t sell them, I get that lothian have a big push for m-tickets which at this point I personally find exhausting, but Ridacards are more handy for folk who don’t have access to a smart phone of feel comfortable having a pass on them at all times, phones run out of batteries and bus passes are made of plastic so y’know

Again it doesn’t seem like rocket science to make a West Lothian/East lothian pass as ECB have Zone C/D costs covered, so they just have E/F to work out which I’m guessing would be just a few more quid more than the precious zone (obviously)

As for LCB, Zone A matches the prices of ECB Zone D so having a Zone A Ridacard match the Zone D card makes sense, but then it’s just LCB Zone B/C to sort out, unless they just have one card for all the zones which I think most West Lothian commuters would prefer

 

[Observer]

With the Horsburgh public inquiry coming up what’s the view on how it will go - is revoking if license likely??

If they are curtailed or revoked, it would be interesting to see who picks up their work.

don’t think they have any commercial services left so would all be council tenders

Anyone even planning on going to it? Should be interesting as to the excuses they come up with the various fires and incidents they've had over the last year or so...as long as the TC doesn't postpone it.

 

[Weemidi135]

Anyone even planning on going to it? Should be interesting as to the excuses they come up with the various fires and incidents they've had over the last year or so...as long as the TC doesn't postpone it.

I am and I’ve confirmed it’s not been adjourned