Why are people opposed to HS2? (And other HS2 discussion)

[philjo]

Main headline just now on BBC 10 o clock news. BBC understands that London-Birmingham-Crewe will be treated as phase 1. Manchester and Leeds branches to be reviewed but still expected to go ahead.

 

[Glenn1969]

I would be more than happy with HS2 to Crewe by 2031 and a decision to then start NPR from Crewe to Leeds in place of Phase 2B.

 

[camflyer]

"for the first 3 years nobody will use it". Stupid, stupid idea.

And yet some people want OOC to be the Terminus and for HS2 not to go to Euston at all so whatever the decision was it would have upset some people

Personally, I'd knock Euston down and start the station again. Make it a gateway to London fit for the 21st Century rather than something which looks like a 1970s provincial shopping arcade.
moderator note: continuation of this discussion can be found at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/hs2-how-would-you-build-it.200155/

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Local politicians tell me there's grumbles about the depot going into Winsford (train washing all night)
My understanding of that part of Winsford is it's an industrial park, so there's really nothing Winsford should complain about (more jobs I guess). Middlewich may be annoyed, especially if they still don't get their tram-train station
Where will the depot for phase 1/2a be?

The "Winsford" depot is called Crewe North on the HS2 maps, and is to be in the angle created between the current WCML and the new HS2 route where it heads for Manchester, south and east of Winsford.
It seems at first glance to be in open country.
It would have to be built at the same time as HS2a (Lichfield-Crewe), and replaces the original proposal which was for a depot at Golborne (north of Warrington).
HS2 Phase 1 has a depot in Birmingham I think, although there must be scope for concentrating at one site if London-Crewe opens on Day 1.
The Leeds branch depot is at Leeds East.

The other route depot is for construction and then maintenance, and will be at Stone, accessed from the Norton Bridge-Stone branch as well as HS2.

 

[js1000]

I would be more than happy with HS2 to Crewe by 2031 and a decision to then start NPR from Crewe to Leeds in place of Phase 2B.

Agree 110%. Crewe to Leeds via Manchester Piccadilly should be HS3. More capacity to Manchester Airport from both the south and the north and would pretty much nullify the bottleneck through Castlefield (Platforms 15/16 at Manchester Piccadilly will be a short term sticking plaster that will solve nothing in the long term). I suspect the eastern leg will not be built as the economic case doesn't stack up. It misses all key cities en route such as Leicester, Derby, Sheffield etc and commuter rail links in these cities are hardly bursting at the seams in the same way that London and Manchester's are and to a lesser extent Leeds that HS2 would help to alleviate pressure on.

 

[The Ham]

One issue about HS2 is that we've not done all we can with the existing network. In the UK, the classic network would need significant upgrades, but not revolutionisation. For instance, the ECML and WCML are relatively high-quality lines, but the MML is lagging behind in terms of standard. HS2 would see a reduction in need should the MML be significantly improved, and services to Nottingham, Sheffield, Leeds etc. would be improved. On the western side, the Chilterns line could reduce a lot of the burden. Thus, the main capacity argument seems to make less sense than it does at face value. Note that with the CML and MML, smaller towns on the way also benefit, whilst HS2 benefits 'parkway' stations and cities only.

Let's look at a different scenario to see why we may wish to get on with HS2 now rather than once we run out of other projects.

Let's for instance say there's a family living in a 3 bedroom house with a 6 year old girl, a 4 year old boy and a 2 year old girl. Currently due to the youngest being in a cot the eldest two share a bedroom with bunk beds.

Now there will come a time when that's not going to work, so measures can be taken to provide the eldest with their own room.

However that only lasts for so long before the middle child (a boy) would then need his own room, but it's unlikely to work well with a 11 year old and a 15 year old sharing and it would certainly not work well with a 13 and 27 year old sharing.

As such at some point in the next 7 years there would need to be something done to accommodate the requirements of those children. It's probably best to aim for when the middle child is 8 or 9 rather than leave it to until they are 13.

Given that planning and building may take a few years and there's a need to work out what is achievable, what's needed, what's affordable, etc. there'll be a need to start the process.

However there's still stuff that can be done in the short term to move the eldest to their own room. However that shouldn't stop you from doing the things needed to be ready for the next bits.

If the extra space is available before it's needed (say the boy is 6) then people will enjoy that extra space, likewise if the project slips by a bit (say the boy is 10) then you've not run out of space before you need it.

It's the same with railway capacity, you need to have a plan as to what to do next before capacity is a problem. Take for instance the level of disruption caused by the Waterloo upgrade, it would have been better to have done that 8 years ago when the network wasn't as busy and be doing Crossrail 2 now.

Likewise by getting on with HS2 before we use up all the capacity we've got the capacity to do those other things until we have built it.

 

[yorkie]

A dedicated thread to discuss the announcement can be found at https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ive-high-speed-rail-line-the-go-ahead.200154/

And ideas/suggestions for alternative ways of building HS2 to be discussed here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/hs2-how-would-you-build-it.200155/

Feel free to continue this discussion to discuss reasons why people may be opposed to HS2

 

[Meole]

Opposition comes from those who do not travel, never view the crowding and delays.

 

[dave55uk]

... it mentioned that for first 3 years services would start/terminate at Old Oak Common ...

If HS2 is at OOC, why not run the line into Paddington instead of Euston?

 

[Sceptre]

The Economist has changed its mind and now advocates HS2 on the basis that, although the BCR figures don't necessarily stack up, the long-term benefits of big transport projects tend to be underestimated (Jubilee line, as an example) and because climate change will put a premium on carbon efficiency in the future.

BCR as a be-all and end-all is a bad metric in any case. I recall McLoughlin had to overrule the bean-counters over Pacer replacement.

 

[camflyer]

Opposition comes from those who do not travel, never view the crowding and delays.

Looking at the news "I won't benefit from it so I'm against it" seems to be the most common reason. By the argument, we'd never build anything - especially anything local - on the basis that the majority won't use it.

Some complaining that there isn't a station between London and Birmingham but if there had been one in the Shires then they would have surely complained about that too.

 

[camflyer]

If HS2 is at OOC, why not run the line into Paddington instead of Euston?

Would there be space at Paddington for all of the extra platforms and infrastructure?

 

[Bald Rick]

If HS2 is at OOC, why not run the line into Paddington instead of Euston?

Because it was cheaper and easier to build it to Euston, and Euston is much more handy for central London, and closer to Kings X St Pancras for international and domestic connections, and so on.

 

[Mogster]

Opposition comes from those who do not travel, never view the crowding and delays.

Yes mostly. Or, as I’ve come to realize, people who travel as a leisure activity outside of peak times.

 

[Meole]

Looking at the news "I won't benefit from it so I'm against it" seems to be the most common reason. By the argument, we'd never build anything - especially anything local - on the basis that the majority won't use it.

Some complaining that there isn't a station between London and Birmingham but if there had been one in the Shires then they would have surely complained about that too.

Locations such as Coventry will benefit from a reduced Birmingham use on the WCML, in the morning they currently stand without reservation.

 

[Haydn1971]

I’m assuming Euston is the big sticking point on completion dates ? What about Curzon Street ? Is that a time critical element ? If so, could we see Ph1 being just Old Oak - NEC - Crewe, with Euston and Curzon being added later, as each leg is completed ? I’m wondering also if TfL have stopped panicking about how many passengers will need to transfer from Euston onto its network yet

 

[dgl]

The BBC has this piece on why it costs so much
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51415590

 

[Bald Rick]

I’m assuming Euston is the big sticking point on completion dates ? What about Curzon Street ? Is that a time critical element ? If so, could we see Ph1 being just Old Oak - NEC - Crewe, with Euston and Curzon being added later, as each leg is completed ? I’m wondering also if TfL have stopped panicking about how many passengers will need to transfer from Euston onto its network yet

Nope, Curzon St is relatively straightforward. Brownfield site, easy access.

 

[matacaster]

My worst fears likely to come true. HS2 won't ever get beyond Phase 1 because the estimates for Phase 2 will be found to be unaffordably high (particularly if going via centre of Bradford) and Phase 1 will go so far over budget that they will simply have to stop. They've done as Andy Burnham says (and I'm no fan of Andy Burnham) and gold plated HS1 and there'll be nothing left for north as per usual.

The only saving grace is if he cans Heathrow expansion.

 

[matacaster]

When HS2 phase 1 opens in 2031? as a resident of Huddersfield, Sheffield or Leeds, how will I be able to make use of it to get to central London? and what time saving or other benefit might I get?

 

[miami]

as a resident of Huddersfield, Sheffield or Leeds, how will I be able to make use of it to get to central London?

You won't, nor will people in Canterbury, Cambridge, Cardiff or Cambourne.

Phase 1 will benefit London, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Stafford, Crewe, Manchester, Liverpool, North Wales, Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Lancaster, Cumbria, Glasgow, Edinburgh, but will only very slightly affect Sheffield, Huddersfield and Leeds (slightly reduced pressure at New Street for cross country services)

 

[Tetchytyke]

"for the first 3 years nobody will use it". Stupid, stupid idea.

Excellent plan, the first sensible thing HS2 has done since forever.

Of course they've only done it because they're already three years behind schedule, and all the contractors are refusing to do the Euston work for the price offered. They're not even close enough to haggle!

As for moving Euston away from HS2 Ltd, one presumes the real intention is to disguise and hide the massive cost overruns. Keep HS2's budget the same, remove the most expensive bit of the entire project from that budget, and bingo- it's built "on budget".

As an added Brucey Bonus, Network Rail will be on the hook for Euston and, when it inevitably goes tits up, they can get ripped to shreds for it instead.

 

[miami]

"for the first 3 years nobody will use it". Stupid, stupid idea.

Really? I'd certainly use it - 15 minutes from Heathrow, 5 minutes from Bond Street, 20 minutes from Canary Wharf, 30 from Reading. Might need to extend a few crossrail paddington terminators to OOC as hundreds of people are dropped on the platform every few minutes.

OOC is far better connected than Euston

 

[Tetchytyke]

Opposition comes from those who do not travel, never view the crowding and delays.

I spent years commuting into Euston and I'm vehemently against HS2 because of the cost. Your point being?

 

[SuperNova]

When HS1 opens in 2031? as a resident of Huddersfield, Sheffield or Leeds, how will I be able to make use of it to get to central London? and what time saving or other benefit might I get?

HS3, if signed off, will use part of HS2 directly benefiting Leeds and indirectly Huddersfield. Then of course TRU should also get the green light, again benefiting both.

 

[matacaster]

If HS2 is at OOC, why not run the line into Paddington instead of Euston?

oh dear, you really are off message!
Its got to go to Euston because....because... because West Coast services have ALWAYS gone to Euston and Sir Richard Moon would turn in his grave. Personally, I would have preferred a new terminus in the area of the St Pancras gasworks, allowing connection to HS1, however I can see your rational for Paddington.

 

[D365]

Ah yes, Paddington, well known for its status as a London Underground hub...

HS2 connects to the GWML at OOC. Why would it need a Zone 1 interchange with the GWML also?

 

[Sceptre]

My worst fears likely to come true. HS2 won't ever get beyond Phase 1 because the estimates for Phase 2 will be found to be unaffordably high (particularly if going via centre of Bradford) and Phase 1 will go so far over budget that they will simply have to stop. They've done as Andy Burnham says (and I'm no fan of Andy Burnham) and gold plated HS1 and there'll be nothing left for north as per usual.

The only saving grace is if he cans Heathrow expansion.

HS2 was never going to go through Bradford. Funnily enough, though, Bradford Crossrail often appears in the crayonista "alternatives" that pop up every so often. (My favourite being the plan to bulldoze half of Dewsbury to get to Bradford)

The NPR route isn't set in stone, but Bradford's been mooted as a possibility. Though serving Huddersfield and Bradford with the same line is going to be difficult, because the only really feasible route without masses of tunnelling – the Pickle Bridge route – is a subsistence nightmare.

 

[MarkyT]

HS2 was never going to go through Bradford. Funnily enough, though, Bradford Crossrail often appears in the crayonista "alternatives" that pop up every so often. (My favourite being the plan to bulldoze half of Dewsbury to get to Bradford)

The NPR route isn't set in stone, but Bradford's been mooted as a possibility. Though serving Huddersfield and Bradford with the same line is going to be difficult, because the only really feasible route without masses of tunnelling – the Pickle Bridge route – is a subsistence nightmare.

It'd be a long way round to serve both on the same route as well. Better value might be had by a modernising both northern and southern transpennine routes, both with significant segments of new construction. As far as Summit Tunnel west portal, the Todmorden line is remarkably straight, with long curves no tighter than 2000m radius as it climbs. Few intermediate stations too, with room available for widening in many places for stretches of parallel slow lines.

 

[Ianno87]

When HS2 phase 1 opens in 2031? as a resident of Huddersfield, Sheffield or Leeds, how will I be able to make use of it to get to central London? and what time saving or other benefit might I get?

Phase 1 will make Huddersfield-Piccadilly-Euston journeys faster. Probably makes it generally faster than going via Leeds/Wakefield.