Victoria line new stock

[A60K]

Agreed - the W&C stock has recently been refreshed, and I'm sure this is what will happen to the Central line stock at some point in the next five or so years.
You could put the 67 stock through a similar extensive refurb programme, but I think the seating would need to be changed to the 92 stock layout anyway (as happened to the 73 stock on the Piccadilly line).

Passenger comfort for seated passengers in the 67 stock is better, yes, with more deeply padded and a few transverse seats, but if LU really wanted to provide more comfortable seats in the 92 they could. Overall the 92 stock allows more people to board, which given how busy the line is must be the key priority. It's not just one's backside that measures comfort!

 

[ert47]

Not knowing the mechanical performance of the 1967 stock from a passenger point of view i feel that TFL should replace the 1992 stock on the Central Line with the 67 stock displaced from the Victoria Line both lines have ATO although 2 cars would have to be removed to make this train 6 car. I say this because in my opinion, despite being under half the age of the 67 stock, the 92 stock is in poor condition their appearance both inside and outside the train which much graffiti, worn interiors and seats, they look dirty too, plus there performance isn't great as there have been many problems with them some notable crashes. I just wish that TFL replaced trains based on performance and passenger comfort rather than just on age.

I always thought the 92 stock is larger than the 67

From what I've read, the bogies on the 92 stock is different as the center 4th conductor rail is higher compared to other lines... if thats relevant

 

[starrymarkb]

Its the Positive rail that is higher, the bores are also tighter on the central then most other lines.

Also no way can a 67 compete with the 92 on performance, every axle is motored on the 92 (try standing up without holding on) and also why reduce to 6 car? The central runs packed 8 car trains. Also there is the small matter of the Olympics at Stratford

Anyway wasn't the last 1992 stock derailment (Bethnal Green) caused by an obstacle on the line rather then any fault with the train.

I'd expect the 1992 stock to be tidied up in time for 2012...

 

[A60K]

I'd expect the 1992 stock to be tidied up in time for 2012...

I think the only thing that can be done in time for the Olympics is to replace some of the tatty masking tape on the outside of the cars with some fresh tape

 

[Dstock7080]

I think the only thing that can be done in time for the Olympics is to replace some of the tatty masking tape on the outside of the cars with some fresh tape

The Central '92s were due to start a refurb programme in 2008 following on from the W&C version. This would have meant new seats and refresh of exterior. (1 trial 2-car was done at WRuislip- exterior only).
Hunsletts were not equipped to deal with the large volume of cars.
Since then money troubles have delayed the general refurb, although they are now getting new bogies.

 

[subway156]

The Central '92s were due to start a refurb programme in 2008 following on from the W&C version. This would have meant new seats and refresh of exterior. (1 trial 2-car was done at WRuislip- exterior only).
Hunsletts were not equipped to deal with the large volume of cars.
Since then money troubles have delayed the general refurb, although they are now getting new bogies.

Who supplies the bogies?

 

[Voyager 2093]

Has anyone heard any speculation on the 1992 Stock going to the Bakerloo Line and the Central Line getting new stock?

 

[Gavelex]

Yes - I have.
I think it's quite likely to happen - the Bakerloo normally gets "hand-me-down" stock off other parts of the network.

 

[Daimler]

Yes - I have.
I think it's quite likely to happen - the Bakerloo normally gets "hand-me-down" stock off other parts of the network.

A pity, I'm rather fond of the Bakerloo stock...

Apologies for reviving a thread that hasn't been touched for a couple of weeks, but does anyone know what's going on with the new Victoria Line trains - I haven't read anything about them for some time, and I haven't seen any running yet (though I'm aware that at least one has been)?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I am told that five sets ( ie 10 units ) are now running.

 

[jon0844]

I've been on one that came in by chance after the train before was full and I waited (so that was a time when I was very glad to have been delayed!) but the posters say they're introducing them gradually - so there should be quite a few more now.

At Highbury & Islington on my FCC train, I could hear (but not see) what I am fairly sure was a new train given the noise it makes. I am sure there must be more than one now, or else they better change the posters that are now appearing on platforms too.

Edit: I see the poster above has answered for you!

 

[MCR247]

The 09 stock sounds just like any electrostar, as the S-Stock will

 

[Voyager 2093]

Should be one every two weeks being delivered now. That is true 'MCR247' they sound just like 'electrostars' more notably 377s and 378s.

The 1967 Stock will be scrapped so I am told and will not be used on the Bakerloo.

 

[Daimler]

Ah - thanks for the quick replies!

Good to hear they're being put into service now - I must look out for them...

 

[Daniel]

Usually T271 T272 & T236 M-F IIRC... off the top of my head I believe two depart Seven Sisters SB M-F 0707 & 0719..? Or 0709 & 0717... two between 0700 and 0730 anyway!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The 1967 Stock will be scrapped so I am told and will not be used on the Bakerloo.

That's right; some have already been sent to Booths...

 

[A60K]

Because of the shortage of stabling space at Northumberland Park every delivery of an 09 now means that a 67 has to leave. There might possibly be a few cars retained for future engineering stock use, but not for passenger use on the Bakerloo or elsewhere (unless there's a late change of heart and some are be grabbed for the IoW, given that it seems increasing likely that the 73 stock that Island Line had their eye on will be retained on the Piccadilly for another 8-10 years).

I've not yet seen more than three 09 stock trains on the line at one time, but this will change by next month as there simply won't be enough 67 stock remaining after the next train of 09 has been delivered.

 

[robertclark125]

Incidentally, it's believed that the 2009 stock will be linebound, and can only leave the Victoria Line by road. Howver, TfL has told me that's not quite the case. Though slightly larger, the 2009 stock can access the Piccadilly Line, at Finsbury Park, and then travel on the Piccadilly Line to access the rest of the system, such as visiting Acton. But, due to gauging issues, this could only be done at night, and at slow speed.

 

[DavyCrocket]

Incidentally, it's believed that the 2009 stock will be linebound, and can only leave the Victoria Line by road. Howver, TfL has told me that's not quite the case. Though slightly larger, the 2009 stock can access the Piccadilly Line, at Finsbury Park, and then travel on the Piccadilly Line to access the rest of the system, such as visiting Acton. But, due to gauging issues, this could only be done at night, and at slow speed.

I was on duty when they did the gauging tests a few years back now. I seem to recall that the result was that the 09 stock didn't fit!

 

[anonymous0101]

As the Victoria line is automatically driven (no coded manual for in service driving like on the central line) do they really need drivers cabs? Surely they could be operated in the same manner as the Docklands Light Railway with someone visible on board to help customers and there would be a view ahead!

 

[robertclark125]

They do need drivers cabs. Security is one point. The trains have cab end doors, so you'd need to ensure against people leving the train through the front willy nilly. From Platform 4 at Seven Sisters, which is the terminal platform, with the road to the depot, trains can only be driven manually onto the depot access roads.

One other point, should there be ATO failure, the train can be driven maunally, albeit maximum speed is 25mph. So cabs are a requirement.

 

[Dstock7080]

They do need drivers cabs. Security is one point. The trains have cab end doors, so you'd need to ensure against people leving the train through the front willy nilly. From Platform 4 at Seven Sisters, which is the terminal platform, with the road to the depot, trains can only be driven manually onto the depot access roads.

One other point, should there be ATO failure, the train can be driven maunally, albeit maximum speed is 25mph. So cabs are a requirement.

DLR has all those requirements you raise, without needing cabs.

 

[Daniel]

the train can be driven maunally, albeit maximum speed is 25mph. So cabs are a requirement.

Some staff material I have seen seems to suggest that once the line is fully 09TS, they will not be restricted to 25 in Protected Manual, and will instead be able to drive in full speed, (with restricted manual still reducing the target speed to 15 (10 over points)).

 

[fIIsion]

There is even talk of trains automatically going in and out of sidings without the driver, who then meets the train on the platform. There is also the future potential of trains automatically stabling from pt 4 to NPK Depot..............can you see where this is heading???????

From some of the comments above about cabless trains and the potential of the 09 stock and beyond; I'm starting to wonder if i'll ever see a full pension.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As the Victoria line is automatically driven (no coded manual for in service driving like on the central line) do they really need drivers cabs? Surely they could be operated in the same manner as the Docklands Light Railway with someone visible on board to help customers and there would be a view ahead!

I was just wondering, what exactly did you mean by helping customers?
My knowledge of the DLR is somewhat limited; so I'm trying to picture what a (former) driver (cabs have been taken away) is going to do now to help customers.
I'm imagining trying to squeeze through packed carriages in the peak, going up to individuals and asking them if they want any assistance (maybe I could be serving tea or coffee) whilst at the same time trying to keep my balance as the train rocks from side to side.

What happens if the train overruns a station or signal?; what happens when ATO fails?
Who applies the brakes if a person accidently falls in front of the train?
How does the train detect if there's an obstruction of the track or a piece of broken rail..........what if the points have not been properly scotched and clipped???

 

[jopsuk]

The DLR trains have emergency driving panels under a cover at the front, that the Customer Service Agent is trained to use- that deals with ATO failures (and it has no signals as such).
On the Victoria line, persons under the train could be eliminated by the installation of platform-edge doors- after all, you're never in daylight in service.

I'm not trying to think up reasons to do you out of a job, but really, the Victoria line, being without branches, with a single depot, and all-underground, is ripe for full automation. See Wikipedia's list of driverless trains for more

 

[jon0844]

The doors are for ventilation reasons aren't they, not anti-suicide? Therefore I doubt they'd ever be retrofitted to existing stations.

However, it can't be impossible to build some form of system to sense if someone does end up on the tracks - which could cut the power and stop trains that run automatically.

To prevent people trying to stop trains by throwing items down on the track for a laugh, I'd envisage a sensor system that alerts a control centre that immediately sees camera footage of the area where a sensor was triggered. Only that person could then order the stop.

 

[starrymarkb]

Retrofits are possible a few of the asian metros and IIRC paris have done it, though it would be sensible not to start fitting until all 2009 stock is in service

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I had three sets ( six units ) for haulage this afternoon:

11009 / 11010
11013 / 11014
11015 / 11016

 

[A60K]

The doors are for ventilation reasons aren't they, not anti-suicide? Therefore I doubt they'd ever be retrofitted to existing stations.

However, it can't be impossible to build some form of system to sense if someone does end up on the tracks - which could cut the power and stop trains that run automatically.

To prevent people trying to stop trains by throwing items down on the track for a laugh, I'd envisage a sensor system that alerts a control centre that immediately sees camera footage of the area where a sensor was triggered. Only that person could then order the stop.

Lyon Ligne D operates like this - no staff normally on the trains or platforms, and no platform edge doors. There's a system of sensors to detect intrusions onto the track, although I believe there was quite a bit of trouble initally with stuff like discarded copies of Le Monde and McDonald's cartons causing false alarms. Haven't kept a close eye so don't know if they've managed to tweak the system now.



--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Retrofits are possible a few of the asian metros and IIRC paris have done it, though it would be sensible not to start fitting until all 2009 stock is in service

Yep, Ligne 1 in Paris is being equipped with PEDs now, and I believe will be getting a new fleet of the MP89 type stock without driving cabs (as currently runs on Ligne 14) to allow the current fleet to move to Ligne 4 and replace the oldest stock in use.

 

[Retropractor]

The driver training for the new 'S' stock, for the Metropolitan line starts soon. My son is a driver on this line, and starts his induction on the new stock, next month.