Are you at the well known TOC, down in the Garden of England ?
They have Sims in both of the Training Schools. Not the worlds best but you should get to use them during your course. Not sure if they use them for a Shunters course but certainly for a Drivers one.
I am not with SWR but I've never heard of anyone fail driver training or a SIM assessment. It's not in the TOC's interest, they do everything they can to get a pass.
I am not with SWR but I've never heard of anyone fail driver training or a SIM assessment. It's not in the TOC's interest, they do everything they can to get a pass.
Happened a few times at SWt/r.....One of ours failed on the Sim about a month back. First time I had ever heard of it.
This happens more than it should do at some TOCs.Do you really think the driver manager is going to risk their lively hood to sign someone off who clearly hasn't got it in them to be a driver.
Is anyone familiar with recording of Sims assessment and what can be reviewed in Terms of audio / video?
Is anyone familiar with recording of Sims assessment and what can be reviewed in Terms of audio / video?
I'm interested to know why it was accepted that the recording to review what this trainee failed was to be reviewed to counter points in assessors feedback. But when it transpired the recording had been lost they were told the recording would have been of no use to the appeal... and so appeal was only held over assessors feedback sheet, which the trainee was contesting.My advice would be to check what your TOCs Sim does/does not record. I know what mine does because I have recordings on my laptop and also had my A4 assessment recorded. I've been on the Sim at a different TOC and theirs recorded much more data than what ours did.
On our assessment Sim runs we tend to pause it at certain points for a more in depth discussion and Q&A. The Sim records that the pause button was pressed and then resumed but obviously it wouldn't record that discussion. What ours can also do is replay a run.
Unfortunately none of this would actually be helpful in any investigation. Same with OTMR evidence. It only ever shows once side of the story and that story is generally pure data driven. The unit was at X speed at X co-ordinates etc etc. I read my last Sim run and it was reporting my speed at 200m from the Red. How I'm supposed to judge that is beyond me but the Sim records the technical details.
The runs that I've recorded and read are kinda useless tbh. Lots of data that could be interpreted various ways.
Interesting. But still what would the recording consist of? And if recording was able to show an incident as differently than as recorded on assessors feedback sheet then it's surely a useful tool in the process of review...Data is often useless. If the Trainee had a SPAD on the Sim then all it would show is that the Signal was passed at Danger. If that was not the subject of the appeal, how would it help ?
Assuming you know more of what has transpired, if the appeal was between Assessor/Candidate and more of a subjective opinion of failure rather than something that is more black and white in the data, the data the sim records is indeed useless.
An appeal cannot take place between assessor and trainee immediately following the assessment. For there to be a dispute in that case it would turn into a disciplinary problem for the trainee instead of following due process and requesting the decision based on actions in the Sims to be reviewed.During official/assessment runs there is ALWAYS (or should be) some paperwork that states the Trainee agrees with what transpired. Every assessment Ive had requires my signature in agreement.
We had a Trainee who failed her Sim run (SPAD) and I asked our DM team how it was possible to fail the sim. There is a specific set of circumstances that are categorical failures. No if or but. However, there is a lot of grey areas where candidates are helped and pushed along or the information dragged out of them. Some scenarios are deliberately avoided because some Trainees will talk themselves down the rabbit hole. This is where a good DM will help their Trainee. Others will sit back and watch the brown stuff hit the spinning thing.
Interesting. But still what would the recording consist of?
And if recording was able to show an incident as differently than as recorded on assessors feedback sheet then it's surely a useful tool in the process of review...
Yes. It is SWRAsk the TOC involved. If it was my TOC I can tell you the specifics as I have recorded Sim runs.
This is where it gets sticky. I can categorically state that our Sim runs would show and offside door release, speeding, horn data, signals, dispatch, timings, and lots of very black and white data. If an Assessor stated that the Trainee released the doors the wrong side it would 100% show that.
HOWEVER.. and this is what you are missing..
The Trainee draws into a station. Stops, and attempts to release the doors.
The Assessor, pauses the Sim run and asks about PTI and dispatch rules and regulations (note the incident has been prevented)
The run is resumed and the Trainee still proceeds to open the wrong side.
The Sim data will not reflect the conversation with the Assessor but will still record the incident as a wrong side release. Was the Trainee distracted? Was the pause unfair ? Did the Assessor cause or try to prevent an incident?
Are you aware if the recording would show driver actions during scenarios? ... I'm aware of a statement saying that recording was only audio.Are you a Driver ?
If you have ever seen an OTMR download, the Sim (at my place) pretty much records everything that does and more. Our Sim also records the state of the track adhesion, weather, faults, handsignaller locations, signal states, run times, pause/unpause, and records every single button press. Again, it's just blanket data. Our TOC doesn't record audio but the other TOC Sim I used, did.
That's perfect, so in that case if recording was to show differing information than a 'dangerous failure' of a scenario as stated on feedback form
then the recording would be critical in its review to support an appeal.
So the loss of such recording would bear good on the case of the trainee and not on the TOC...
Evidenced is important. Lack of is crucialIt's difficult to say whats right or wrong because I don't know what is being disputed or what the scenario was. One of our assessment runs can cause a little bit of panic in a Trainee. It's designed that way but the sim data will only show that there was a significant pause or an extended period of time that elapsed. When I carry out the run. It involves some extensive feedback between myself and a Trainee. 90% of the time the Trainee fails at the first attempt. My 'feedback' will always differ to what the data shows.
ONLY if the data was needed to support the Trainees case. If the Assessor stated that the Trainee released the wrong side then I would 100% agree that there needs to be evidence.
Again, only where evidence is needed because there is a dispute. If its a case of he said, she said. Then data becomes irrelevant. Its also subjective as to what is considered 'dangerous' I don't believe that walking less than 6ft between cabs in multiple would be considered 'dangerous' but you would still need to get lines blocked, confirmation code, etc before carrying it out so others may consider that as a dangerous act.
I hate to say it but failing a second time still doesn't bode well. A third attempt isn't always the best result. There are no second chances out there and Drivers are expected to be 100% all the time. Errors, even the smallest, can have serious consequence. There is a lot of pressure on a Trainee and a lot of pressure during an assessment I would hope that allowances are made and I would hope that any decision to fail a Trainee is justified and evidenced correctly.
Thankyou for your insight. Very helpfulIt's difficult to say whats right or wrong because I don't know what is being disputed or what the scenario was. One of our assessment runs can cause a little bit of panic in a Trainee. It's designed that way but the sim data will only show that there was a significant pause or an extended period of time that elapsed. When I carry out the run. It involves some extensive feedback between myself and a Trainee. 90% of the time the Trainee fails at the first attempt. My 'feedback' will always differ to what the data shows.
ONLY if the data was needed to support the Trainees case. If the Assessor stated that the Trainee released the wrong side then I would 100% agree that there needs to be evidence.
Again, only where evidence is needed because there is a dispute. If its a case of he said, she said. Then data becomes irrelevant. Its also subjective as to what is considered 'dangerous' I don't believe that walking less than 6ft between cabs in multiple would be considered 'dangerous' but you would still need to get lines blocked, confirmation code, etc before carrying it out so others may consider that as a dangerous act.
I hate to say it but failing a second time still doesn't bode well. A third attempt isn't always the best result. There are no second chances out there and Drivers are expected to be 100% all the time. Errors, even the smallest, can have serious consequence. There is a lot of pressure on a Trainee and a lot of pressure during an assessment I would hope that allowances are made and I would hope that any decision to fail a Trainee is justified and evidenced correctly.