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Has anyone had success appealing against the train driver simulator assessment at second fail?
- Thread starter gc1990
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Are you at the well known TOC, down in the Garden of England ?
They have Sims in both of the Training Schools. Not the worlds best but you should get to use them during your course. Not sure if they use them for a Shunters course but certainly for a Drivers one.
They have Sims in both of the Training Schools. Not the worlds best but you should get to use them during your course. Not sure if they use them for a Shunters course but certainly for a Drivers one.
No the well known one towards SW London/Surrey.
And that’s correct you don’t use them for the shunter driver course but did get a little go on them (informally).
TravellingPhil
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At my TOC, even us trainee conductors get to go on the simulator. But only to let us have a chance to try a 'live' emergency call on the GSMR. But for fun, we get a little drive and get to see some of the hazards and failures that can happen. Obviously, we're not assessed on it but it's useful for us to see.
It's not an official part of the course but our trainers are keen for conductors to at least have a look.
It's not an official part of the course but our trainers are keen for conductors to at least have a look.
I've heard of people failing on the sim due to dangerous mistakes and spads but to fail the sim twice He must of either done something really bad or there's an underlying issue that he's not telling you. It's in the TOC/FOC best interest to get you through that last hurdle. Hope he resolves the issue and passes in his next run if he gets the chance
martin2345uk
Established Member
Wish we had a sim at my FOC, sounds pretty useful!
It certainly happens. On my course alone, two failed at different stages, and there are several others I can think of, just off the top of my head.
Including one guy who only got one attempt at his final assessment: his manager had to hit a plunger to prevent him from spadding.
. It was mutually agreed there and then that the driving grade wasn’t for him.It’s true that TOCs are keen to get people through, if at all possible, but not if they aren’t capable of doing the job (although quite a few do end up with keys who still go onto prove incapable of doing the job).
Many of people fail.
People think just because the toc puts tens of thousands of pounds of resources into training you that you will automatically get a key this is the biggest myth going.
Do you really think the driver manager is going to risk their lively hood to sign someone off who clearly hasn't got it in them to be a driver.
dctraindriver
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Happened a few times at SWt/r.....
This happens more than it should do at some TOCs.
Just out of interest, why?
Yes and as per above; why ?
My advice would be to check what your TOCs Sim does/does not record. I know what mine does because I have recordings on my laptop and also had my A4 assessment recorded. I've been on the Sim at a different TOC and theirs recorded much more data than what ours did.
On our assessment Sim runs we tend to pause it at certain points for a more in depth discussion and Q&A. The Sim records that the pause button was pressed and then resumed but obviously it wouldn't record that discussion. What ours can also do is replay a run.
Unfortunately none of this would actually be helpful in any investigation. Same with OTMR evidence. It only ever shows once side of the story and that story is generally pure data driven. The unit was at X speed at X co-ordinates etc etc. I read my last Sim run and it was reporting my speed at 200m from the Red. How I'm supposed to judge that is beyond me but the Sim records the technical details.
The runs that I've recorded and read are kinda useless tbh. Lots of data that could be interpreted various ways.
On our assessment Sim runs we tend to pause it at certain points for a more in depth discussion and Q&A. The Sim records that the pause button was pressed and then resumed but obviously it wouldn't record that discussion. What ours can also do is replay a run.
Unfortunately none of this would actually be helpful in any investigation. Same with OTMR evidence. It only ever shows once side of the story and that story is generally pure data driven. The unit was at X speed at X co-ordinates etc etc. I read my last Sim run and it was reporting my speed at 200m from the Red. How I'm supposed to judge that is beyond me but the Sim records the technical details.
The runs that I've recorded and read are kinda useless tbh. Lots of data that could be interpreted various ways.
I'm interested to know why it was accepted that the recording to review what this trainee failed was to be reviewed to counter points in assessors feedback. But when it transpired the recording had been lost they were told the recording would have been of no use to the appeal... and so appeal was only held over assessors feedback sheet, which the trainee was contesting.
Data is often useless. If the Trainee had a SPAD on the Sim then all it would show is that the Signal was passed at Danger. If that was not the subject of the appeal, how would it help ?
Assuming you know more of what has transpired, if the appeal was between Assessor/Candidate and more of a subjective opinion of failure rather than something that is more black and white in the data, the data the sim records is indeed useless.
Assuming you know more of what has transpired, if the appeal was between Assessor/Candidate and more of a subjective opinion of failure rather than something that is more black and white in the data, the data the sim records is indeed useless.
Interesting. But still what would the recording consist of? And if recording was able to show an incident as differently than as recorded on assessors feedback sheet then it's surely a useful tool in the process of review...
During official/assessment runs there is ALWAYS (or should be) some paperwork that states the Trainee agrees with what transpired. Every assessment Ive had requires my signature in agreement.
We had a Trainee who failed her Sim run (SPAD) and I asked our DM team how it was possible to fail the sim. There is a specific set of circumstances that are categorical failures. No if or but. However, there is a lot of grey areas where candidates are helped and pushed along or the information dragged out of them. Some scenarios are deliberately avoided because some Trainees will talk themselves down the rabbit hole. This is where a good DM will help their Trainee. Others will sit back and watch the brown stuff hit the spinning thing.
We had a Trainee who failed her Sim run (SPAD) and I asked our DM team how it was possible to fail the sim. There is a specific set of circumstances that are categorical failures. No if or but. However, there is a lot of grey areas where candidates are helped and pushed along or the information dragged out of them. Some scenarios are deliberately avoided because some Trainees will talk themselves down the rabbit hole. This is where a good DM will help their Trainee. Others will sit back and watch the brown stuff hit the spinning thing.
An appeal cannot take place between assessor and trainee immediately following the assessment. For there to be a dispute in that case it would turn into a disciplinary problem for the trainee instead of following due process and requesting the decision based on actions in the Sims to be reviewed.
Ask the TOC involved. If it was my TOC I can tell you the specifics as I have recorded Sim runs.
This is where it gets sticky. I can categorically state that our Sim runs would show and offside door release, speeding, horn data, signals, dispatch, timings, and lots of very black and white data. If an Assessor stated that the Trainee released the doors the wrong side it would 100% show that.
HOWEVER.. and this is what you are missing..
The Trainee draws into a station. Stops, and attempts to release the doors.
The Assessor, pauses the Sim run and asks about PTI and dispatch rules and regulations (note the incident has been prevented)
The run is resumed and the Trainee still proceeds to open the wrong side.
The Sim data will not reflect the conversation with the Assessor but will still record the incident as a wrong side release. Was the Trainee distracted? Was the pause unfair ? Did the Assessor cause or try to prevent an incident?
Yes. It is SWR
Are you a Driver ?
If you have ever seen an OTMR download, the Sim (at my place) pretty much records everything that does and more. Our Sim also records the state of the track adhesion, weather, faults, handsignaller locations, signal states, run times, pause/unpause, and records every single button press. Again, it's just blanket data. Our TOC doesn't record audio but the other TOC Sim I used, did.
If you have ever seen an OTMR download, the Sim (at my place) pretty much records everything that does and more. Our Sim also records the state of the track adhesion, weather, faults, handsignaller locations, signal states, run times, pause/unpause, and records every single button press. Again, it's just blanket data. Our TOC doesn't record audio but the other TOC Sim I used, did.
Are you aware if the recording would show driver actions during scenarios? ... I'm aware of a statement saying that recording was only audio.
What actions ?
Part of driving a train is also using RTC (risk triggered commentary) I very much doubt that would have been recorded. However it would form part of an assessment.
Our Sim records every single button press and movement on the handle. If a Driver was approaching a station too fast and stuck the brake in, it would show it.
Part of driving a train is also using RTC (risk triggered commentary) I very much doubt that would have been recorded. However it would form part of an assessment.
Our Sim records every single button press and movement on the handle. If a Driver was approaching a station too fast and stuck the brake in, it would show it.
That's perfect, so in that case if recording was to show differing information than a 'dangerous failure' of a scenario as stated on feedback form then the recording would be critical in its review to support an appeal. So the loss of such recording would bear good on the case of the trainee and not on the TOC...
It's difficult to say whats right or wrong because I don't know what is being disputed or what the scenario was. One of our assessment runs can cause a little bit of panic in a Trainee. It's designed that way but the sim data will only show that there was a significant pause or an extended period of time that elapsed. When I carry out the run. It involves some extensive feedback between myself and a Trainee. 90% of the time the Trainee fails at the first attempt. My 'feedback' will always differ to what the data shows.
ONLY if the data was needed to support the Trainees case. If the Assessor stated that the Trainee released the wrong side then I would 100% agree that there needs to be evidence.
Again, only where evidence is needed because there is a dispute. If its a case of he said, she said. Then data becomes irrelevant. Its also subjective as to what is considered 'dangerous' I don't believe that walking less than 6ft between cabs in multiple would be considered 'dangerous' but you would still need to get lines blocked, confirmation code, etc before carrying it out so others may consider that as a dangerous act.
I hate to say it but failing a second time still doesn't bode well. A third attempt isn't always the best result. There are no second chances out there and Drivers are expected to be 100% all the time. Errors, even the smallest, can have serious consequence. There is a lot of pressure on a Trainee and a lot of pressure during an assessment I would hope that allowances are made and I would hope that any decision to fail a Trainee is justified and evidenced correctly.
Evidenced is important. Lack of is crucial
Thankyou for your insight. Very helpful
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