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If you could create any direct services which currently don’t run which would you choose?

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Harvey B

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Sheffield - Blackpool via Todmorden

What route would you use to get to Tod? If you're going via Wakefield or Huddersfield, then Brighouse then you're also going via Victoria. Did you mean to run via Copy Pit? Because if you're coming from the Yorkshire side you'd turn off before Todmorden.

My first thought was Sheffield, Barnsley, Penistone, Huddersfield, Brighouse, Hebden Bridge, Todmorden etc.

It's also not inconceivable to go Sheffield, Barnsley, Wakefield Kirkgate, Mirfield, Brighouse then same.

Perhaps Halifaxlad could elaborate on his ideas...

That's what was confusing me... if you go that way and still serve Todmorden you have to go via Manchester Victoria. Avoiding Manchester also avoids Todmorden unless you reverse there.

I was puzzled by this too, especially as the line from Hebden Bridge to Preston is hardly fast and it’s probably quicker to travel via Manchester Victoria and Huddersfield
PARTIALLY STOLEN IDEA:
York/Leeds to Blackpool North via Todmorden/Manchester Victoria
I'd also keep the service that runs via Copy pit/Blackburn too making two York services an hour but the question is should the copy pit/ Blackburn train go via Bradford like it does now or should the Todmorden/Manc train go via Bradford
 
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Whistler40145

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PARTIALLY STOLEN IDEA:
York/Leeds to Blackpool North via Todmorden/Manchester Victoria
I'd also keep the service that runs via Copy pit/Blackburn too making two York services an hour but the question is should the copy pit/ Blackburn train go via Bradford like it does now or should the Todmorden/Manc train go via Bradford
Would one of the services go via Brighouse and Dewsbury to Leeds?
 

Iskra

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Would one of the services go via Brighouse and Dewsbury to Leeds?

There are already services that do these routes, the Chester and Wigan to Leeds services. Where does this new idea leave those? Leeds-Manchester is pretty well trodden ground on all the vaguely sensible routes. There is a glut of trains per hour to all sorts of wonderful places without adding more, but instead what's really needed is simply trains of a decent length.
 

backontrack

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1tpd Wick-Edinburgh and 1tpd Wick-Glasgow (and returns).

Wick - Thurso - Georgemas (x) - Forsinard - Helmsdale - Brora - Golspie - Rogart (x) - Lairg - Ardgay - Tain - Fearn (x) - Invergordon - Alness - Dingwall - Muir of Ord - Inverness - Aviemore - Pitlochry - Perth - Kirkcaldy - Edinburgh Gateway - Haymarket - Edinburgh Waverley

Wick - Thurso - Georgemas (x) - Forsinard - Helmsdale - Brora - Golspie - Rogart (x) - Lairg - Ardgay - Tain - Fearn (x) - Invergordon - Alness - Dingwall - Muir of Ord - Inverness - Aviemore - Kingussie - Pitlochry - Dunkeld - Perth - Stirling - Glasgow Queen Street

Runs via the Rose Hill Curve.
 

Voyager lad

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1tpd Wick-Edinburgh and 1tpd Wick-Glasgow (and returns).

Wick - Thurso - Georgemas (x) - Forsinard - Helmsdale - Brora - Golspie - Rogart (x) - Lairg - Ardgay - Tain - Fearn (x) - Invergordon - Alness - Dingwall - Muir of Ord - Inverness - Aviemore - Pitlochry - Perth - Kirkcaldy - Edinburgh Gateway - Haymarket - Edinburgh Waverley

Wick - Thurso - Georgemas (x) - Forsinard - Helmsdale - Brora - Golspie - Rogart (x) - Lairg - Ardgay - Tain - Fearn (x) - Invergordon - Alness - Dingwall - Muir of Ord - Inverness - Aviemore - Kingussie - Pitlochry - Dunkeld - Perth - Stirling - Glasgow Queen Street

Runs via the Rose Hill Curve.
I genuinely think there is a market for this kind of service, particularly during the summer months. Having it with a portion for Kyle of Lochalsh too would maximise revenue.
 

backontrack

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I genuinely think there is a market for this kind of service, particularly during the summer months. Having it with a portion for Kyle of Lochalsh too would maximise revenue.
Yeah, honestly. I feel like it could work given the Thurso ferry passengers too – plus the new ability of Orkney, Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross passengers to comfortably visit the central belt in a day. There's not many changes you can do to incentivise new Far North Line patronage without building the Lentran Dynamic, but I think this is one.

Ironically, while I think that the Far North Line works best with southbound services in the morning (to meet the first ferry from Stromness) and northbound services in the afternoon (for the last ferry from Scrabster), I feel as though the Kyle service would need an early departure from Edinburgh/Glasgow and a later arrival in the central belt. Passengers from Skye would probably go via Mallaig; in the summer, there's probably decent demand for an 'excusion'-type service from Edinburgh especially to Kyle direct, especially with 'scenic rail journeys' branding.
 

Voyager lad

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1tp2h Glasgow Central - Motherwell - Carlisle - Oxenholme - Lancaster - Preston - Wigan NW - Warrington BQ - Crewe - Stafford - Wolverhampton - Birmingham NS - Worcestershire Parkway - Cheltenham Spa - Gloucester - Lydney - Newport - Cardiff Central

1tp2h Edinburgh Waverley - Berwick - Alnmouth - Newcastle - Durham - Darlington - York - Leeds - Wakefield Westgate - Sheffield - Chesterfield - Derby - Tamworth - Birmingham NS - University - Worcestershire Parkway - Cheltenham Spa - Gloucester - Chepstow - Newport - Cardiff Central

4tpd extend to Swansea (Bridgend, Port Talbot Parkway, Neath) (2 each from Glasgow and Edinburgh)

1tpd Summer Friday - Sunday extended to Milford Haven from Edinburgh

1tpd Summer Friday - Sunday extended to Tenby from Glasgow

1tph between Plymouth and Birmingham retained with alternate running to Glasgow via the West Coast and Edinburgh via the East Coast every 2 hours
 

Esker-pades

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1tpd Wick-Edinburgh and 1tpd Wick-Glasgow (and returns).

Wick - Thurso - Georgemas (x) - Forsinard - Helmsdale - Brora - Golspie - Rogart (x) - Lairg - Ardgay - Tain - Fearn (x) - Invergordon - Alness - Dingwall - Muir of Ord - Inverness - Aviemore - Pitlochry - Perth - Kirkcaldy - Edinburgh Gateway - Haymarket - Edinburgh Waverley

Wick - Thurso - Georgemas (x) - Forsinard - Helmsdale - Brora - Golspie - Rogart (x) - Lairg - Ardgay - Tain - Fearn (x) - Invergordon - Alness - Dingwall - Muir of Ord - Inverness - Aviemore - Kingussie - Pitlochry - Dunkeld - Perth - Stirling - Glasgow Queen Street

Runs via the Rose Hill Curve.
They'd probably need to attach at either Perth or Inverness. (IE: Edinburgh & Glasgow - Wick rather than 2 seperate services).
 

hexagon789

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1tpd Wick-Edinburgh and 1tpd Wick-Glasgow (and returns).

Wick - Thurso - Georgemas (x) - Forsinard - Helmsdale - Brora - Golspie - Rogart (x) - Lairg - Ardgay - Tain - Fearn (x) - Invergordon - Alness - Dingwall - Muir of Ord - Inverness - Aviemore - Pitlochry - Perth - Kirkcaldy - Edinburgh Gateway - Haymarket - Edinburgh Waverley

Wick - Thurso - Georgemas (x) - Forsinard - Helmsdale - Brora - Golspie - Rogart (x) - Lairg - Ardgay - Tain - Fearn (x) - Invergordon - Alness - Dingwall - Muir of Ord - Inverness - Aviemore - Kingussie - Pitlochry - Dunkeld - Perth - Stirling - Glasgow Queen Street

Runs via the Rose Hill Curve.

ScotRail used to run such services (basically a just joining two seperate services rather than new services), but I don't think they lasted very long.

I think one of the off-putting things is how long such journeys would take. You can go from Aberdeen to London in less time than say Glasgow to Wick by train.

I think there's a need for some speeding up too
 

backontrack

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ScotRail used to run such services (basically a just joining two seperate services rather than new services), but I don't think they lasted very long.

I think one of the off-putting things is how long such journeys would take. You can go from Aberdeen to London in less time than say Glasgow to Wick by train.

I think there's a need for some speeding up too
True, and for what it's worth the Far North Line infrastructure definitely needs improving, with new passing loops. I still think it's worth another whirl, though.
 

Whistler40145

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Mine is a bizarre service

Brighton to Edinburgh via Gatwick Airport, Thameslink ECML connection and calling at major stations, using Mk 5 stock and a Class 92 with 3rd Rail shoes refitted
 

hexagon789

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True, and for what it's worth the Far North Line infrastructure definitely needs improving, with new passing loops. I still think it's worth another whirl, though.

Perhaps the through service could also fulfil the role of a faster service from the Far North.

There was once a four hour dead Inverness-Wick and return, calling at fewer stops.

With the more modern traction now provided, were more passing loops installed, perhaps such a service could manage the run to Inverness in under 4 hours, then becoming a fast service to the capital, again missing stops would enable a more amiable overall running time. (It's still going to be about 6.75 hours at best I reckon).

Alternatively infrastructure improvements to quicken all services and better and more numerous connections at Inverness for trains to the south.

Like many things a bit of trial and error might be necessary
 

backontrack

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Perhaps the through service could also fulfil the role of a faster service from the Far North.

There was once a four hour dead Inverness-Wick and return, calling at fewer stops.

With the more modern traction now provided, were more passing loops installed, perhaps such a service could manage the run to Inverness in under 4 hours, then becoming a fast service to the capital, again missing stops would enable a more amiable overall running time. (It's still going to be about 6.75 hours at best I reckon).

Alternatively infrastructure improvements to quicken all services and better and more numerous connections at Inverness for trains to the south.

Like many things a bit of trial and error might be necessary
I think the infrastructure improvements are necessary in the long-term.

In terms of trying to get the fastest service possible, it's a question of being able to timetable it so that other services on the line are passed where they're stationary on the loops.

Thurso and Wick are musts; aside from that, you pretty much need to stop at Helmsdale, Brora, Tain, Invergordon and Dingwall. Lairg is away from the A9 corridor so should probably get a call; the same applies to Ardgay. Alness doesn't have a passing loop, but it's the largest population centre in Easter Ross. Golspie is the largest place between Tain and Thurso on the line, so that gets a call too despite its lack of a passing loop.

Muir of Ord (a small town, with a passing loop, fairly close to Inverness) and Forsinard (the last passing loop on the line) wouldn't be at the top of the list, but ultimately calling there might be needed. Rogart also has a loop but is usually a request stop (though it gets more passengers than Georgemas). I think we can drop Fearn; Beauly and Conon Bridge are served by the Kyle services and aren't far from Inverness, so can be omitted from the one fast train per day; Dunrobin Castle maybe in summertime, or Evanton or Halkirk when they get opened (but that would signify infrastructure improvements anyway).

It's then a matter of timetabling it so that you can get non-stop passes at places like Muir, Rogart, Forsinard and maybe Lairg. If it helps with making time and is feasible, then maybe you can drop calling at Ardgay and Helmsdale too.

In any case, loops at Lentran and Kinbrace (and possibly at Evanton, Edderton and Halkirk while we're at it) are needed anyway. After that, not only can you go hourly to Tain, but there's the distinct possibility of faster services yet.
 

hexagon789

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I think the infrastructure improvements are necessary in the long-term.

In terms of trying to get the fastest service possible, it's a question of being able to timetable it so that other services on the line are passed where they're stationary on the loops.

Thurso and Wick are musts; aside from that, you pretty much need to stop at Helmsdale, Brora, Tain, Invergordon and Dingwall. Lairg is away from the A9 corridor so should probably get a call; the same applies to Ardgay. Alness doesn't have a passing loop, but it's the largest population centre in Easter Ross. Golspie is the largest place between Tain and Thurso on the line, so that gets a call too despite its lack of a passing loop.

Muir of Ord (a small town, with a passing loop, fairly close to Inverness) and Forsinard (the last passing loop on the line) wouldn't be at the top of the list, but ultimately calling there might be needed. Rogart also has a loop but is usually a request stop (though it gets more passengers than Georgemas). I think we can drop Fearn; Beauly and Conon Bridge are served by the Kyle services and aren't far from Inverness, so can be omitted from the one fast train per day; Dunrobin Castle maybe in summertime, or Evanton or Halkirk when they get opened (but that would signify infrastructure improvements anyway).

It's then a matter of timetabling it so that you can get non-stop passes at places like Muir, Rogart, Forsinard and maybe Lairg. If it helps with making time and is feasible, then maybe you can drop calling at Ardgay and Helmsdale too.

In any case, loops at Lentran and Kinbrace (and possibly at Evanton, Edderton and Halkirk while we're at it) are needed anyway. After that, not only can you go hourly to Tain, but there's the distinct possibility of faster services yet.

I think a more frequent service to Tain would be good. Perhaps more Inverness-Aberdeen services could be combined into Aberdeen-Glasgow/Edinburgh services giving the likes of Elgin more direct services to the south and if the timetable was arranged right, saving more trains as well.
 

Whistler40145

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I’d introduce an InterCity style service that connects London with Inverness that avoids Edinburgh or Glasgow Central, routed via Birmingham New Street and WCML to Motherwell and calls at Cumbernauld, Stirling, Perth and Highland Mainline Stations, maybe replacing the Highland Chieftain
 

hexagon789

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I’d introduce an InterCity style service that connects London with Inverness that avoids Edinburgh or Glasgow Central, routed via Birmingham New Street and WCML to Motherwell and calls at Cumbernauld, Stirling, Perth and Highland Mainline Stations, maybe replacing the Highland Chieftain

So basically reintroduce The Clansman? ;)
 

hexagon789

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Yes

Would a service via the WCML be slower than the ECML?

Depends whether you can run at EPS speeds. The Clansman used to take up to 10.5hrs in the early 1980s, but of course speeds were lower.

In 1986, the Clansman ran as a portion of a 110mph Euston-Glasgow, I assume avoiding Birmingham, and presumably faster.

I think if you ran at EPS speeds on the WCML (say using a 221), I think it would be close between ECML and WCML provided you ran direct on the WCML and not via Birmingham.
 

Whistler40145

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Depends whether you can run at EPS speeds. The Clansman used to take up to 10.5hrs in the early 1980s, but of course speeds were lower.

In 1986, the Clansman ran as a portion of a 110mph Euston-Glasgow, I assume avoiding Birmingham, and presumably faster.

I think if you ran at EPS speeds on the WCML (say using a 221), I think it would be close between ECML and WCML provided you ran direct on the WCML and not via Birmingham.
I was considering the use of a Class 800 series unit running on the juice to Stirling and switching over to Diesel
 

The Ham

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Depends whether you can run at EPS speeds. The Clansman used to take up to 10.5hrs in the early 1980s, but of course speeds were lower.

In 1986, the Clansman ran as a portion of a 110mph Euston-Glasgow, I assume avoiding Birmingham, and presumably faster.

I think if you ran at EPS speeds on the WCML (say using a 221), I think it would be close between ECML and WCML provided you ran direct on the WCML and not via Birmingham.

Whilst end to end speed can be important the actual time of departure can be important too. In that few are going to wait 30 minutes for a train that takes 15 minutes less time.

The other thing to consider is that rail travel isn't always about end to end journeys (XC is a good example of this) and so as long as the Inbetween stations are likely to provide good connections between stations then people would use it for shorter good as well as longer trips.
 

hexagon789

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Whilst end to end speed can be important the actual time of departure can be important too. In that few are going to wait 30 minutes for a train that takes 15 minutes less time.

The other thing to consider is that rail travel isn't always about end to end journeys (XC is a good example of this) and so as long as the Inbetween stations are likely to provide good connections between stations then people would use it for shorter good as well as longer trips.

I can see the point that the convenience of a through service appeals to people more do than having to change, even if it takes longer, but I think there's a limit as to how much longer people would accept
 

Halifaxlad

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That's what was confusing me... if you go that way and still serve Todmorden you have to go via Manchester Victoria. Avoiding Manchester also avoids Todmorden unless you reverse there.

I wasn't suggesting calling at Todmorden!

Sorry I did forget the line divulges before it reaches the station.

Todmorden was purely as a locational reference.
 
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