COVID19 and compulsory reservations

[Bletchleyite]

We've touched on this in other threads but I thought it deserves its own.

One way of preventing dangerous (for spread) overcrowding for COVID is compulsory reservations. It could be controlled in a certain way, such as up to the day of travel you can only book if you can evidence a reason for essential travel, then a load of Advances released on the day to fill capacity for leisure travel.

It seems SNCF are doing this for some (but not all) TER trains:

Compulsory reservation on some French TER trains

As France tentatively relaxes its Coronavirus restrictions, a process known as déconfinement, more train services are being introduced from Monday 11 May 2020. On some regional rail routes, intending passengers will need to secure a boarding card (coupon d'accès) prior to travel.

www.europebyrail.eu

Any more thoughts? I think it is, much as I don't normally favour it, the best option for managing capacity as things unlock, and I think it could be applied to much of the railway. It wouldn't need much enforcement, because in these times most people would comply - you'd just have to leave some seats spare in case people don't in any case.

SNCF seem to be doing it by using "counted places" but most trains have numbered seats (or could have them stuck on) so you could reserve actual seats, allowing e.g. only one of each pair to be available to book.

 

[3rd rail land]

Who gets to decide what counts as essential travel? What one person considers essential another might not.

Some essential travel probably can't be planned much in advance. For example a doctor calls in sick and is unable to work that day and another doctor who is on a rest day has to fill in for them. What if no more advance tickets are available?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Who gets to decide what counts as essential travel? What one person considers essential another might not.

In practice it would probably mean season tickets. Most essential rail travel is commuting.

It might be possible for the Government to issue something to deal with some other niche cases, e.g. supply teaching.

Some essential travel probably can't be planned much in advance. For example a doctor calls in sick and is unable to work that day and another doctor who is on a rest day has to fill in for them. What if no more advance tickets are available?

There do exist other modes of transport. In this sort of niche, a taxi paid for by the hospital is probably the best bet if they don't drive.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And before anyone says "supermarket shopping", how many people do their supermarket shopping by train? Very, very few I'd think.

 

[3rd rail land]

In practice it would probably mean season tickets. Most essential rail travel is commuting.
What about workers who can do say 80% of their job remotely but the other 20% can only be done on site? Those people wouldn't want a season ticket if they aren't commuting regularly and do most of their work remotely.


There do exist other modes of transport. In this sort of niche, a taxi paid for by the hospital is probably the best bet if they don't drive.

True but it seems a bad use of NHS funds when a cheaper alternative, i.e a train, is running

 

[Bletchleyite]

True but it seems a bad use of NHS funds when a cheaper alternative, i.e a train, is running

If there's capacity on the train, an Advance would be available!

 

[Bantamzen]

And before anyone says "supermarket shopping", how many people do their supermarket shopping by train? Very, very few I'd think.

Puts hand up.... In fact prior to lockdown, I used to regularly dive over the road from Shipley to Aldi before dicing back onto my connection home. OK, I'll admit there probably aren't many that do it, although I do see a few round these parts.

But onto the subject matter. You've really got your teeth into this idea, but unfortunately you've continued to swerve around the elephant in the room, or should that be carriage, and that is that the lives of many workers don't operate to strict, neat little timetables. Let me give a hypothetical example. An office worker is approaching the end of their shift, the phone rings and it is an urgent matter that they must deal with and so end up working over for half an hour. In this time they have missed their compulsory booking, but not had time to check for another. By the time the call ends, they check and there is no availability for a couple of hours.

Now there's no need to reply to this scenario, all I am trying to do is to get you to think outside your box. The priority for TOCs in the coming weeks will be to get people to and from their places of employment, but the rapidly changing nature of how businesses will work going forward, along with people having jobs that do not allow them to always start and finish at plannable times renders your idea, with all due respect, less than useless.

 

[111-111-1]

Puts hand up.... In fact prior to lockdown, I used to regularly dive over the road from Shipley to Aldi before dicing back onto my connection home. OK, I'll admit there probably aren't many that do it, although I do see a few round these parts.

But onto the subject matter. You've really got your teeth into this idea, but unfortunately you've continued to swerve around the elephant in the room, or should that be carriage, and that is that the lives of many workers don't operate to strict, neat little timetables. Let me give a hypothetical example. An office worker is approaching the end of their shift, the phone rings and it is an urgent matter that they must deal with and so end up working over for half an hour. In this time they have missed their compulsory booking, but not had time to check for another. By the time the call ends, they check and there is no availability for a couple of hours.

Now there's no need to reply to this scenario, all I am trying to do is to get you to think outside your box. The priority for TOCs in the coming weeks will be to get people to and from their places of employment, but the rapidly changing nature of how businesses will work going forward, along with people having jobs that do not allow them to always start and finish at plannable times renders your idea, with all due respect, less than useless.

Agree with all your points.

There are a few who without cars do a local train journey for essential shopping. I would suggest there are plenty of examples where smaller places have retained a station but do not have any larger supermarkets and of course how many have a post office or bank?

Your example is using time efficiently, a bit like me last week having a 50 min connection so walked 10 mins to supermarket got essential groceries then got next train.

 

[Bantamzen]

Agree with all your points.

There are a few who without cars do a local train journey for essential shopping. I would suggest there are plenty of examples where smaller places have retained a station but do not have any larger supermarkets and of course how many have a post office or bank?

Your example is using time efficiently, a bit like me last week having a 50 min connection so walked 10 mins to supermarket got essential groceries then got next train.

The thing about doing your shop en route now is that you will have no idea how long you will be in the supermarket anymore, or indeed queuing outside. With my old Aldi run I used to have around 25 minutes between trains, more than enough for me in Aldi as you know the checkouts will fly through. But now you could be stuck for an hour waiting outside.

I understand where @Bletchleyite is coming from, and maybe in future it might be a better solution for long distance services, something akin to Shinkansen. But for commuter services it is simply not viable.

 

[6862]

This is of interest to me, as I hope to make a long intercity journey as soon as possible to return to my primary residence (as I have mentioned elsewhere I am a student, currently visiting my parents). I realise that technically I could return at any point, as I would be going home, but I don't want to risk it at the moment because I would be travelling with large bags, which would attract attention and I don't imagine the police would take to kindly to it (I don't fancy getting a criminal record).

I would happily book an advance fare for this journey (if I had some idea of when I was returning), but I would be concerned that my travel plans could be suddenly disrupted by more draconian measures such as we are seeing in France (100 km travel limit). So while I think advance fares will be useful post lockdown (if that ever comes!), I personally would ideally only book a few hours in advance. I wonder whether many others would do the same?

 

[Bletchleyite]

But onto the subject matter. You've really got your teeth into this idea, but unfortunately you've continued to swerve around the elephant in the room, or should that be carriage, and that is that the lives of many workers don't operate to strict, neat little timetables. Let me give a hypothetical example. An office worker is approaching the end of their shift, the phone rings and it is an urgent matter that they must deal with and so end up working over for half an hour. In this time they have missed their compulsory booking, but not had time to check for another. By the time the call ends, they check and there is no availability for a couple of hours.

And what I am saying is that businesses and customers have to adapt. That "urgent matter" will have to wait and be dealt from from home, or the next day. Or it'll have to go on hold while the office worker checks if they can change their ticket.

I've weekly commuted by air and this situation has arisen a few times. Office workers aren't ambulance crew, very rarely is someone going to fall over dead if the matter waits while you have a wee, as it were. The matter could wait the 5 minutes it took to check that there was capacity to change to a later flight and to do so.

And if you are in that position, e.g. you are an ambulance worker, other arrangements must be made.

I will finish by inviting you, in the spirit of the thread, to propose a workable alternative.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I understand where @Bletchleyite is coming from, and maybe in future it might be a better solution for long distance services, something akin to Shinkansen. But for commuter services it is simply not viable.

I'd note that this debate is very specifically around applying it to most[1] train services as long as social distancing is in operation. The debate surrounding the concept as applied in "normal" circumstances is a bit separate and one on which my views are a bit more varied - it certainly has upsides and downsides, and I will admit that my opposition to it reduces with improved technology meaning doing a quick change of ticket is not a difficult thing to do on your phone (provided charges aren't swingeing for doing so), and to be honest the older I get the more I strongly dislike overcrowding on long distance services. But I fail to see any other workable solution here for the likes of Northern that don't potentially have people who can't get on either forced to wait at the station (not what we want) or stranded.

[1] I can't see it working applied to Metrolink, Merseyrail, LO or the likes, but with such high-frequency services it probably is viable to use some sort of managed queueing, potentially closing some smaller stations to free up the staff to manage it properly (publishing the queueing time might also help, as the office worker in your hypothetical case may choose to stay a little later if the queue is long). But most train services in the UK are not like those ones.

 

[Luke McDonnell]

We've touched on this in other threads but I thought it deserves its own.

One way of preventing dangerous (for spread) overcrowding for COVID is compulsory reservations. It could be controlled in a certain way, such as up to the day of travel you can only book if you can evidence a reason for essential travel, then a load of Advances released on the day to fill capacity for leisure travel.

It seems SNCF are doing this for some (but not all) TER trains:

Compulsory reservation on some French TER trains

As France tentatively relaxes its Coronavirus restrictions, a process known as déconfinement, more train services are being introduced from Monday 11 May 2020. On some regional rail routes, intending passengers will need to secure a boarding card (coupon d'accès) prior to travel.

www.europebyrail.eu

Any more thoughts? I think it is, much as I don't normally favour it, the best option for managing capacity as things unlock, and I think it could be applied to much of the railway. It wouldn't need much enforcement, because in these times most people would comply - you'd just have to leave some seats spare in case people don't in any case.

SNCF seem to be doing it by using "counted places" but most trains have numbered seats (or could have them stuck on) so you could reserve actual seats, allowing e.g. only one of each pair to be available to book.

How would this idea apply to holders of ENCTS/travel passes in the areas where local rail travel on these passes is possible? - both disabled persons's passes (which I have) and old person's passes? Do you envisage holders of such passes being exempt from these restrictions, or a system where you would have to book in advance to get a free concessionary 'ticket' to show on the train or giving the holders of such passes the ability to travel turn up and go with maybe a restriction on their use at peak times (which is already the case in many areas anyway for the morning peak but not for the Merseytravel disabled pass which I have). I get your idea but I don't see it being workable on most services especially the likes of Merseyrail which I use on my pass - Merseyrail is a short distance commuter operator - a metro style service so I don't see how such a system on Merseyrail would be possible (unless you could propose the same system from the London Underground, Manchester Metrolink and buses).

Luke

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seat reservations can be made separately from the ticket held and that has always been the case in the UK, so you would simply obtain a separate reservation on the day to use with your PTE pass, ENCTS or whatever. I am not proposing fully switching to a French style "global fare" system. You'll note also that with regard to Merseyrail and similar high frequency "metro" systems this may not be viable and instead closing some smaller stations and implementing queueing systems may be preferable.

I wasn't really covering buses, but there's a good case that, if capacity is substantially reduced, reservations should perhaps apply to some long distance, less frequent bus routes. The Oxford-Cambridge X5, for example, could just be operated as a Megabus service.

 

[Bantamzen]

And what I am saying is that businesses and customers have to adapt. That "urgent matter" will have to wait and be dealt from from home, or the next day. Or it'll have to go on hold while the office worker checks if they can change their ticket.

That depends on the nature of the work. Quite frankly you are simplifying it too much to suit your idea. What if that call was from a suicidal teenager? "Do you mind waiting until tomorrow, or when I can book a train?". Please....

I've weekly commuted by air and this situation has arisen a few times. Office workers aren't ambulance crew, very rarely is someone going to fall over dead if the matter waits while you have a wee, as it were. The matter could wait the 5 minutes it took to check that there was capacity to change to a later flight and to do so.

And if you are in that position, e.g. you are an ambulance worker, other arrangements must be made.

There are plenty of office jobs that are vital, NHS support workers & call staff, DWP & HMRC service centre staff, social workers, local council workers, bank contact centres... Oh I think you get the idea. Like I say, you are trying to fit the world around your idea.

I will finish by inviting you, in the spirit of the thread, to propose a workable alternative.

Run the trains as normal, ask businesses to try to stagger rotation hours, you know as has already been suggested. Social distancing is not going to be possible on the vast majority of the public transport network. End of. So we have to try to run as normal a service as possible, whilst encouraging travel to be spread out as much as possible.

I'd note that this debate is very specifically around applying it to most[1] train services as long as social distancing is in operation. The debate surrounding the concept as applied in "normal" circumstances is a bit separate and one on which my views are a bit more varied - it certainly has upsides and downsides, and I will admit that my opposition to it reduces with improved technology meaning doing a quick change of ticket is not a difficult thing to do on your phone (provided charges aren't swingeing for doing so), and to be honest the older I get the more I strongly dislike overcrowding on long distance services. But I fail to see any other workable solution here for the likes of Northern that don't potentially have people who can't get on either forced to wait at the station (not what we want) or stranded.

[1] I can't see it working applied to Metrolink, Merseyrail, LO or the likes, but with such high-frequency services it probably is viable to use some sort of managed queueing, potentially closing some smaller stations to free up the staff to manage it properly (publishing the queueing time might also help, as the office worker in your hypothetical case may choose to stay a little later if the queue is long). But most train services in the UK are not like those ones.

As I say social distancing isn't going to work very well on public transport even in the short to medium term. I note other countries are trying all manner of things to keep a 1m, 1.5m, 2m or whatever distance the distancing committee has come up with, but if & when they get business up and running again these measures will in all likelihood cause more problems than they will solve.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That depends on the nature of the work. Quite frankly you are simplifying it too much to suit your idea. What if that call was from a suicidal teenager? "Do you mind waiting until tomorrow, or when I can book a train?". Please....

I said customers and businesses will need to adapt. Your example is a rather extreme one that doesn't apply to most office work (this forum so *loves* finding niche exceptions to ideas, doesn't it?) - but there are two ways Childline (say) and their staff could adapt. One is that they budget to provide taxis home if someone's call runs off the end of their day. The other is that if you finish shift at 1730 and the trains are at 1745 and 1845, you book the 1845 and take a book. If you get away on time and there's space to change to the 1745, cool. If not, read your book. Or if you own a car, drive. Or if you don't drive but a family member does, if you miss your train they could come and get you. There are so many options.

 

[Bantamzen]

I said customers and businesses will need to adapt. Your example is a rather extreme one that doesn't apply to most office work (this forum so *loves* finding niche exceptions to ideas, doesn't it?) - but there are two ways Childline (say) and their staff could adapt. One is that they budget to provide taxis home if someone's call runs off the end of their day. The other is that if you finish shift at 1730 and the trains are at 1745 and 1845, you book the 1845 and take a book. If you get away on time and there's space to change to the 1745, cool. If not, read your book. Or if you own a car, drive. Or if you don't drive but a family member does, if you miss your train they could come and get you. There are so many options.

Wrong, wrong & thrice wrong. There are lots of office calls that are very urgent that can't just be fobbed off. And you know it.

 

[3rd rail land]

I said customers and businesses will need to adapt. Your example is a rather extreme one that doesn't apply to most office work (this forum so *loves* finding niche exceptions to ideas, doesn't it?) - but there are two ways Childline (say) and their staff could adapt. One is that they budget to provide taxis home if someone's call runs off the end of their day. The other is that if you finish shift at 1730 and the trains are at 1745 and 1845, you book the 1845 and take a book. If you get away on time and there's space to change to the 1745, cool. If not, read your book. Or if you own a car, drive. Or if you don't drive but a family member does, if you miss your train they could come and get you. There are so many options.

When I go to the office it is nearly always to do something that can't be done from home or is far easier to do from the office. Sometimes that work takes longer than estimated and I leave later than planned. It is far more convenient to leave later than planned than to have to come back another day to complete the work. You're suggesting that in such a scenario I book a later train and hang around unnecessarily at the office killing time perhaps by reading a book as I won't necessarily have other work to do that will fill the extra time. I don't have set work hours. I try and split my 37.5 hour working week into equal 7.5 working days but this is not always possible.

Oh and please do not suggest I drive as I neither own or a car or a driving license. Buses are no an option as none go to the office and I live 41 miles away which would make for a very long bus journey even if there was a viable bus service I could use. Buses often don't go the most direct route anyway.

I suppose if I needed to be at the office for more than 1 consecutive day I could book a hotel in the area local to the office. That may or may not get approved. If it doesn't then I am stuck dealing with having to get home by train, requiring up to 2 trains and an Tube train depending on the route I take.

 

[MDB1images]

I would expect it's one of a number of measures being looked at by TOCs.
Far easier in principle for Inter City trains as the journeys made are generally pre planned in the majority of cases but local trains would need something different.

 

[MDB1images]

In France on TER trains.

Compulsory reservation on some French TER trains

As France tentatively relaxes its Coronavirus restrictions, a process known as déconfinement, more train services are being introduced from Monday 11 May 2020. On some regional rail routes, intending passengers will need to secure a boarding card (coupon d'accès) prior to travel.

www.europebyrail.eu

 

[Hadders]

I hope we don't end up with compulsory reservations as I suspect the TOCs would try to keep it permanently which would be massively detrimental to rail travel.

 

[Huntergreed]

I hope we don't end up with compulsory reservations as I suspect the TOCs would try to keep it permanently which would be massively detrimental to rail travel.

I doubt that, the rail companies would lose out on a large amount of revenue from insisting on compulsory reservations after its necessary

 

[Mojo]

You've really got your teeth into this idea, but unfortunately you've continued to swerve around the elephant in the room, or should that be carriage, and that is that the lives of many workers don't operate to strict, neat little timetables. Let me give a hypothetical example. An office worker is approaching the end of their shift, the phone rings and it is an urgent matter that they must deal with and so end up working over for half an hour. In this time they have missed their compulsory booking, but not had time to check for another. By the time the call ends, they check and there is no availability for a couple of hours.

I would in fact go as far as saying that the majority of shift workers (ie. those working to a roster, rather than those with fixed hours that don't fit within normal office hours) would fall into this category. The same "key workers" who are currently being lauded - but are instead being asked to potentially fester around at stations for hours in an attempt to get a booking on a later train, in addition to getting off late due to an essential tasking late on in their shift.

 

[111-111-1]

The thing about doing your shop en route now is that you will have no idea how long you will be in the supermarket anymore, or indeed queuing outside. With my old Aldi run I used to have around 25 minutes between trains, more than enough for me in Aldi as you know the checkouts will fly through. But now you could be stuck for an hour waiting outside.

Point taken, had there been a queue outside I would have just counted it as my daily walk and gone shopping at home.

 

[Cowley]

Point taken, had there been a queue outside I would have just counted it as my daily walk and gone shopping at home.

Hm. probably best to leave the supermarket tangent there before we end up queuing for that particular rabbit hole...

 

[Hadders]

I doubt that, the rail companies would lose out on a large amount of revenue from insisting on compulsory reservations after its necessary

We're at risk of going off topic but many train companies advocate compulsory reservations. For example Virgin Trains proposed just this well before they lost their franchise. We had a lengthy thread on it last year.

Standing on long rail journeys to be banned under Virgin Trains plan for airline-style fare

Don't know if anyone has seen this article in the Daily Telegraph this morning. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/04/23/standing-long-rail-journeys-banned-virgin-trains-plan/ Standing on long train journeys will be effectively banned under radical proposals by Virgin Trains to force all...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Qwerty133]

How would this idea apply to holders of ENCTS/travel passes in the areas where local rail travel on these passes is possible? - both disabled persons's passes (which I have) and old person's passes? Do you envisage holders of such passes being exempt from these restrictions, or a system where you would have to book in advance to get a free concessionary 'ticket' to show on the train or giving the holders of such passes the ability to travel turn up and go with maybe a restriction on their use at peak times (which is already the case in many areas anyway for the morning peak but not for the Merseytravel disabled pass which I have). I get your idea but I don't see it being workable on most services especially the likes of Merseyrail which I use on my pass - Merseyrail is a short distance commuter operator - a metro style service so I don't see how such a system on Merseyrail would be possible (unless you could propose the same system from the London Underground, Manchester Metrolink and buses).

Luke

Why should they be exempt, in fact I'd argue the exact opposite and state that such passes should be suspended for the time being. The elderly and disabled have no more reason to be allowed to make non essential journeys than anyone else and such passes should have never have been used for commuting to and from paid employment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We're at risk of going off topic but many train companies advocate compulsory reservations. For example Virgin Trains proposed just this well before they lost their franchise. We had a lengthy thread on it last year.

Standing on long rail journeys to be banned under Virgin Trains plan for airline-style fare

Don't know if anyone has seen this article in the Daily Telegraph this morning. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/04/23/standing-long-rail-journeys-banned-virgin-trains-plan/ Standing on long train journeys will be effectively banned under radical proposals by Virgin Trains to force all...

www.railforums.co.uk

Though what's worth bearing in mind is that what they want is not just compulsory reservations (i.e. the present fare system but you have to get a reservation to board), but also unregulated global fares, i.e. low-cost-airline style dynamic pricing to maximise revenue. The Off Peak Single and Return provide a fairly low cap on fares other than in the weekday peaks, and given that the real IC peaks are Friday evening and Sunday afternoon the TOCs would relish the chance to price up those services and just blame the computer.

You could have compulsory reservations without the other stuff, which would probably be appropriate to now, but there's no gain to the TOCs of that, and for the likes of XC who make a load of money out of severe overcrowding it would cause big losses.

That said, even if that were the case the TOCs would still gain one thing - ticket sales at stations would near enough cease (as who would risk just rocking up and finding the train full?) so the cost of ticket offices and TVMs would reduce. This is very visible at cinemas, where the ability to book a specific seat has meant you are now incentivised to book in advance rather than just rocking up and going in as soon as the doors open.

 

[squizzler]

Could the ticket barriers be made to print seat reservations on your ticket as you go through?

This would seem the obvious way to do it: as you present an open travel ticket to the barrier it works out the next available journey option on which there is capacity, makes the reservation and prints the trains and seat numbers on the ticket.

 

[Bantamzen]

Could the ticket barriers be made to print seat reservations on your ticket as you go through?

This would seem the obvious way to do it: as you present an open travel ticket to the barrier it works out the next available journey option on which there is capacity, makes the reservation and prints the trains and seat numbers on the ticket.

Well I'd say waiting until the barriers before finding out when you will be travelling might be a touch late. Imagine going through at say 16:00 only to find out your next service isn't until 19:00. Not fun! And besides that what if you are using a e-ticket or Smartcard, plus you'd need to install printers in every single ticket barrier, oh and there's the small matter of the being a lot of stations without them in the first place....