Restoring Your Railway Fund: what ideas would you suggest?

[Killingworth]

I am very disappointed that the Selby-Market Weighton-Driffield line is not on the list, let alone a priority. It surely has as much merit as some of the entries?

I train spotted at Bainton signal box sometime back in the 1955-65 period but I'm not in favour of that one. Even then it was only the summer Saturday specials to Brid and Filey (Butlins) that provided most traffic. Various 4-6-0s running to the coast every 15 minutes in the morning and back in the afternoon/evening.

 

[furnessvale]

I am very disappointed that the Selby-Market Weighton-Driffield line is not on the list, let alone a priority. It surely has as much merit as some of the entries?

On a more serious note, 60 schemes will give bounteous work for consultants to do feasibility studies? Might be some money left for one or two lines, most likely in or around conurbations.

I believe 6 or maybe 8 will be selected for further work. Like golf, if you don't make the cut you are out.

 

[Tobbes]

I believe 6 or maybe 8 will be selected for further work. Like golf, if you don't make the cut you are out.

That seems reasonable; the £500m was never going to deliver more than one or two of these schemes (and possibly none of them). What I'm not clear on is whare the line is drawn between current schemes (Fleetwood, Bylth, Portishead?) and new additions? I guess a lot of the output depends on how much of the levelling up agenda survives Covid-19; these aren't cheap interventions.

 

[RT4038]

I believe 6 or maybe 8 will be selected for further work. Like golf, if you don't make the cut you are out.

You are most likely right. So, 60 feasibiliy studies in order to do the selection on some kind of scientific basis. The best 8 selected for a more in-depth study, and then 2 done with the money left over?

 

[darloscott]

I wonder if Saltburn to Loftus might be on this list? There was a few mentions a few months ago of possible reopening to passenger traffic. Wonder up if they've submitted a case to this scheme.

 

[furnessvale]

You are most likely right. So, 60 feasibiliy studies in order to do the selection on some kind of scientific basis. The best 8 selected for a more in-depth study, and then 2 done with the money left over?

The first cut is being made now on the basis of the current submissions. I do not know the quality of other bids but I have detailed knowledge of one which is comprehensive with professional support as well as the backing of all local and several more distant MPs.

If others are on the back of a fag packet without the support of MPs I doubt they will go far.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes, but the passenger service south of Ruthin went as early as Feb 1953, only just outlasting the Mid-Suffolk! Would this be the first pre-Beeching closure reinstated to the national network?

Plenty of pre- Beeching closures have been reopened. Ebbw Vale Line, Airdrie - Bathgate, Stratford - Dalston, and I’m sure there’s others that I can’t remember without looking up.

 

[si404]

Farringdon - Blackfriars was a World War 1 closure for passengers, but I think the end of freight was Beeching.

 

[bluenoxid]

The first cut is being made now on the basis of the current submissions. I do not know the quality of other bids but I have detailed knowledge of one which is comprehensive with professional support as well as the backing of all local and several more distant MPs.

If others are on the back of a fag packet without the support of MPs I doubt they will go far.

As far as I know the Ideas Fund submissions need the support of at least one MP. Some schemes may have chosen to bid a little earlier than desirable to gain ongoing support (in terms of assistance) from the DfT for the second and third application rounds

 

[bluenoxid]

I wonder if Saltburn to Loftus might be on this list? There was a few mentions a few months ago of possible reopening to passenger traffic. Wonder up if they've submitted a case to this scheme.

An initial report was expected early summer (pre-Covid). Potentially, if the next stage is small, it might be a second/third round ideas fund bid or an Accelerating Existing Proposals bid. Alternatively, they might have put in a small bid for the work being undertaken.

 

[QQQ]

Yes, but the passenger service south of Ruthin went as early as Feb 1953, only just outlasting the Mid-Suffolk! Would this be the first pre-Beeching closure reinstated to the national network?

The route from Shireoaks to Doncaster mentioned on the list closed to passengers in 1929.

 

[Bald Rick]

That seems reasonable; the £500m was never going to deliver more than one or two of these schemes (and possibly none of them). What I'm not clear on is whare the line is drawn between current schemes (Fleetwood, Bylth, Portishead?) and new additions? I guess a lot of the output depends on how much of the levelling up agenda survives Covid-19; these aren't cheap interventions.

There’s ‘current’ and ‘current’

Portishead is fairly well developed, and within a year or two of being ‘shovel ready’

Ashington / Blyth is behind that, but is in the development phase.

Fleetwood is pushing the definition of current. In cricket terms, it has just got its pads on and is walking down the pavilion steps. It is some way behind the other two, and perhaps only a couple of months ahead of anything else on the list (all of which are still in the pavilion, having a cuppa, wondering if they will get a chance to bat at all.)

 

[furnessvale]

There’s ‘current’ and ‘current’

Portishead is fairly well developed, and within a year or two of being ‘shovel ready’

Ashington / Blyth is behind that, but is in the development phase.

Fleetwood is pushing the definition of current. In cricket terms, it has just got its pads on and is walking down the pavilion steps. It is some way behind the other two, and perhaps only a couple of months ahead of anything else on th exist (all of which are still in the pavilion, having a cuppa, wonderign if they will get a chance to bat at all.)

I suspect a lot on that list are still in their cars and driving to Wembley for the match! When they walk out on the pitch they are in for a shock.

 

[Tobbes]

There’s ‘current’ and ‘current’

Portishead is fairly well developed, and within a year or two of being ‘shovel ready’

Ashington / Blyth is behind that, but is in the development phase.

Fleetwood is pushing the definition of current. In cricket terms, it has just got its pads on and is walking down the pavilion steps. It is some way behind the other two, and perhaps only a couple of months ahead of anything else on th exist (all of which are still in the pavilion, having a cuppa, wonderign if they will get a chance to bat at all.)

A good analogy, and point well taken about pre-Beeching closures that have reopened - many thanks, every day is school day on here!

 

[yoyothehobo]

On a slight side note, do you think those that don't make the cut will finally accept they are no hopers, are will it be a they are wrong type scenario? If you were to get even 8 reopening out of this, surely it would kick some that far into the long grass as for even the most optimistic person (or politician at election time) to consider it

 

[si404]

In cricket terms

Leicester-Burton and a couple of the others warmed up earlier and have got their pads laid out in the dressing room ready to put on, but know its not yet time, and so are sitting on the balcony ready to spring into action when the time comes.

Uckfield-Lewes is still making its way through the pavillion to join those on the balcony. It's been waylaid by fans trying to get it to put on the fanciest cricket equipment and open up the batting with an expensive unknown newby. The fans reckon that the equipment and partnering with the expensive newby will turn this lower-order player from nothing special into a reliable century scorer.

Newport to Smallbrook Junction's normally in the commentary box - retired from competitive action, but stayed with the sport and has found a niche entertaining the crowds. Its selection for this is reasonable enough (especially compared to many of the others), but it'll rather be on the box than out on the field.

There's a few ex-players that had a dip in form and got dropped, then didn't keep fitness up, and so will struggle to get back playing again. If they had kept fit, there would have been a reasonable chance of a comeback, but alas.

There's some other ex-players that were never any good and were lucky to be picked for their village side back in their prime. They are long since past it and only got selected out of either pity or cluelessness. Some might be delusional that they might be able to hit the ball, others are just happy for the attention!

 

[Bald Rick]

Leicester-Burton and a couple of the others warmed up earlier and have got their pads laid out in the dressing room ready to put on, but know its not yet time, and so are sitting on the balcony ready to spring into action when the time comes.

Uckfield-Lewes is still making its way through the pavillion to join those on the balcony. It's been waylaid by fans trying to get it to put on the fanciest cricket equipment and open up the batting with an expensive unknown newby. The fans reckon that the equipment and partnering with the expensive newby will turn this lower-order player from nothing special into a reliable century scorer.

Newport to Smallbrook Junction's normally in the commentary box - retired from competitive action, but stayed with the sport and has found a niche entertaining the crowds. Its selection for this is reasonable enough (especially compared to many of the others), but it'll rather be on the box than out on the field.

There's a few ex-players that had a dip in form and got dropped, then didn't keep fitness up, and so will struggle to get back playing again. If they had kept fit, there would have been a reasonable chance of a comeback, but alas.

There's some other ex-players that were never any good and were lucky to be picked for their village side back in their prime. They are long since past it and only got selected out of either pity or cluelessness. Some might be delusional that they might be able to hit the ball, others are just happy for the attention!

Aberystwth to Carmarthen is Tuffers; absolutely no chance at the crease, but quite hilarious watching him try all the same.

 

[si404]

Aberystwth to Carmarthen is Tuffers; absolutely no chance at the crease, but quite hilarious watching him try all the same.

Agreed. Also both appear way too often, and have a folksy charm that makes them more popular than they ought to be. But, nethertheless, it just wouldn't be right without them!

 

[bluenoxid]

On a slight side note, do you think those that don't make the cut will finally accept they are no hopers, are will it be a they are wrong type scenario? If you were to get even 8 reopening out of this, surely it would kick some that far into the long grass as for even the most optimistic person (or politician at election time) to consider it

No! Unfortunately, the reopening of the railway infrastructure has a charm to it that is difficult to kick. My town still swoons after the former railway stations and line that it had despite the stations being poorly located for the town centre and the formation being obliterated by housing developments.

The distraction for Fleetwood are its fans saying that it should be playing 1 day events (light rail) rather than 5 day events (heavy rail).

 

[The Planner]

Newport to Smallbrook Junction's normally in the commentary box - retired from competitive action, but stayed with the sport and has found a niche entertaining the crowds. Its selection for this is reasonable enough (especially compared to many of the others), but it'll rather be on the box than out on the field.

I'd argue they didn't even make the squad and are making snide comments on Twitter with about 8 followers!

 

[tbtc]

Millhouses (and Heeley) should be a quick win, in theory, but it would need full reinstatement of the second pair of tracks.

There's also the problem of what service to provide.

There seems no point spending all that money just to give them the same level of service that Dore currently has - you'd need at least three trains per hour to make it worthwhile waiting for one (compared to the frequent parallel bus services that actually serve the centre of the city) - so what services are those? And if there's going to be additional capacity on the line then how much do you prioritise two new stations over the existing places further out (that have a shout for more seats too)? And, given that a large number of Dore passengers manage to get away without paying for tickets, how many people will a conductor manage to see on the five minute journey as far as Heeley (given that Sheffield Midland has no "gates')?

It would be good to see this list divided between line reopenings, reopened/new stations, and timetable/service enhancements.

Agreed, but it'd also be good to see it divided into the Carmarthenshire/ Norfolk/ Devon/ Peak District/ Lincolnshire kind of proposals and the ones in everyday commuting distance of large cities.

On a slight side note, do you think those that don't make the cut will finally accept they are no hopers, are will it be a they are wrong type scenario? If you were to get even 8 reopening out of this, surely it would kick some that far into the long grass as for even the most optimistic person (or politician at election time) to consider it

Nah, it's the attack of the unsinkable rubber ducks - if you are the kind of true believer who argues for such things, you'll find anything to suit your confirmation bias - plus there's always a new crop of local MPs or other "stakeholders" happy to throw their constituents a bone by pledging support to a local scheme, and a good constituency of nostalgists who like the idea of going back to a world before the mid-60s (even if they aren't the kind of people who'd actually do anything as ghastly as use provincial trains on a regular basis).

If you are a true believer then you'll always find something to back up what you already believe. The fact that the last remaining minibus service linking two places is no longer commercially viable will be met by "ah, but if we only spend a few hundred million pounds on a train line...". The fact that an existing station only gets used by one man and his dog on a typical week will see a response of "ah, but if you massively increased the frequency and slashed the fares then more people might use it".

And, there's council elections most years, we've had Westminster elections fairly often (plus Scottish/ Mayoral/ Welsh etc votes every few years).

If the Forum is still here in ten years time, there'll have been recent threads about SELRAP/ Carmarthen -Aberystwyth/ Tweedbank - Carlisle etc - such proposals don't go away (sadly!)

 

[BigCj34]

Silloth to Carlisle is very random! Makes Penrith to Keswick seems much more logical in comparison.

 

[si404]

I'd argue they didn't even make the squad and are making snide comments on Twitter with about 8 followers!

That's rather harsh, given what some of the other shortlisted routes are. If Newport-Smallbrook Jct is that, what is Lostwithiel-Fowey?!

Looking at Altnabreac's 5 golden rules of a successful rail reopening:

• Population of 10,000+ Newport is 25k
• 60 minutes journey time of a major employment centre Portsmouth would definitely fall within that range
• Extant or mainly unobstructed trackbed There might be a couple of little obstructions in Newport, plus difficulty getting into the town centre itself if required, and the heritage line is obviously in the way
• Ability to extend an existing service so more terminal capacity is not required. No, but Ryde Pier Head ought to be able to turn 4tph (2tph to Newport, 2tph to Shanklin)
• Regeneration Potential of a deprived area Perhaps surprisingly, eastern Newport is in the bottom 10% most deprived areas in the country

I'll stand by what I suggested with the cricket metaphor that keeping it as a heritage line is a better use of it. It's not going to have a good business case - it's Uckfield-Lewes sort of level of BCR (~0.75, ie about half of the minimum generally required to be considered viable) - but it won't have an embarrassingly bad one like Keswick or Kingsbridge will.

There's like 40 reopening proposals here, and I reckon (though more a reflection on the dearth of quality of the rest of them than a statement of the merits of this one), there's a good chance this scheme would be in the First XI!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Silloth to Carlisle is very random! Makes Penrith to Keswick seems much more logical in comparison.

In locktown I have been enjoying Margaret Forsters books on being brought up in working class Carlisle , where day trips to Silloth were hugely popular for the not very well off residents. She describes the stampede to board the trains at Carlisle , - but noting winter visits (to get fresh air) on empty trains. There were fishing and port traffics for a while , but well into decline from as early as the 1950's and certainly later on. Closure of course was controversial - but it was not stopped.

I sometimes think "proposals" come from almost sheer nostalgia (a la Proust) , without serious justification. A friend who was in high places at one time , explained that at least one supporter of SELRAP was someone who lived knowhere handy , was of a certain age and sort of felt that the re-opening was there to satisfy "filling a gap" in the map.

Of course , with present pressures on finances , it could be possible to "note the studies" and park for now. Till finances improve. We will see.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Silloth to Carlisle is very random! Makes Penrith to Keswick seems much more logical in comparison.

Population of 2900 - and not much in between. Attractive marshland with the sound of it. Must go and have a look around sometime.

 

[IanXC]

I am very disappointed that the Selby-Market Weighton-Driffield line is not on the list, let alone a priority. It surely has as much merit as some of the entries?

The trouble is, what significant settlements does that put back on the railway map? Market Weighton, and possibly Holme on Spalding Moor and Middleton on the Wolds - and where does it connect them to? Driffield and Selby. I can't see that that would ever wash its face.

On the other hand, York to Beverley, would put Stamford Bridge, Pocklington and Market Weighton back on the map.
Applying Altnabreac's 5 golden rules of a successful rail reopening:

• Population of 10,000+ Stamford Bridge 3,500, Pocklington 8,300, Market Weighton 6,400, Total 18,200 (ignoring the significant house building since the last census in each of these settlements and ignoring Haxby)
• 60 minutes journey time of a major employment centre Can't find a source however recall 56 minutes which puts the 3 new stations all within 60 minutes of York and Hull.
• Extant or mainly unobstructed trackbed There might be a couple of little obstructions in Pocklington and Market Weighton however suitable alternatives have been identified.
• Ability to extend an existing service so more terminal capacity is not required. No, but at the York end there is capacity to run to platform 2, and with the redevelopment of York station there is the possibility of reinstating a platform opposite this. At the Hull end there is capacity for an additional service from Beverley to Hull as this runs in peak hours.
• Regeneration Potential of a deprived area No.

The projects other big benefit is the ability to relieve congestion on the A1079 (the dualling of which, for instance, would be significantly more expensive than reopening the railway) and relieving the road network in the York area. All 3 settlements produce significant commuter road traffic into York and reducing these flows even by a small amount would make a meaningful difference to congestion in and around York.

 

[Peter Sarf]

There's also the problem of what service to provide.

There seems no point spending all that money just to give them the same level of service that Dore currently has - you'd need at least three trains per hour to make it worthwhile waiting for one (compared to the frequent parallel bus services that actually serve the centre of the city) - so what services are those? And if there's going to be additional capacity on the line then how much do you prioritise two new stations over the existing places further out (that have a shout for more seats too)? And, given that a large number of Dore passengers manage to get away without paying for tickets, how many people will a conductor manage to see on the five minute journey as far as Heeley (given that Sheffield Midland has no "gates')?



Agreed, but it'd also be good to see it divided into the Carmarthenshire/ Norfolk/ Devon/ Peak District/ Lincolnshire kind of proposals and the ones in everyday commuting distance of large cities.



Nah, it's the attack of the unsinkable rubber ducks - if you are the kind of true believer who argues for such things, you'll find anything to suit your confirmation bias - plus there's always a new crop of local MPs or other "stakeholders" happy to throw their constituents a bone by pledging support to a local scheme, and a good constituency of nostalgists who like the idea of going back to a world before the mid-60s (even if they aren't the kind of people who'd actually do anything as ghastly as use provincial trains on a regular basis).

If you are a true believer then you'll always find something to back up what you already believe. The fact that the last remaining minibus service linking two places is no longer commercially viable will be met by "ah, but if we only spend a few hundred million pounds on a train line...". The fact that an existing station only gets used by one man and his dog on a typical week will see a response of "ah, but if you massively increased the frequency and slashed the fares then more people might use it".

And, there's council elections most years, we've had Westminster elections fairly often (plus Scottish/ Mayoral/ Welsh etc votes every few years).

If the Forum is still here in ten years time, there'll have been recent threads about SELRAP/ Carmarthen -Aberystwyth/ Tweedbank - Carlisle etc - such proposals don't go away (sadly!)

Strikes me that we are going back to before the 60s. That's the dream of leaving Europe isn't it, isn't it ?. The good old days

 

[Killingworth]

Heeley and Millhouses.

There's also the problem of what service to provide.

There seems no point spending all that money just to give them the same level of service that Dore currently has - you'd need at least three trains per hour to make it worthwhile waiting for one (compared to the frequent parallel bus services that actually serve the centre of the city) - so what services are those? And if there's going to be additional capacity on the line then how much do you prioritise two new stations over the existing places further out (that have a shout for more seats too)? And, given that a large number of Dore passengers manage to get away without paying for tickets, how many people will a conductor manage to see on the five minute journey as far as Heeley (given that Sheffield Midland has no "gates')?

Quite. I don't see a proposal for either or both getting far as a standalone scheme.

However, it would be at least 10-15 years before such stations could be built, by which time Sheffield station should have had, or be about to have, a complete revamp for HS2 or MML electrification. That's going to include some form of gating, although by then the latest ticket technology will probably be quite different.

But thinking bigger, with 4 tracks from Dore into Sheffield a shuttle service from a new station at Totley would make more sense. Nobody is seriously proposing that as yet, as far as I know. It would be a serious project, although it would almost certainly get tangled up with proposals for a tram/train extention. The debate would rumble on until both ended in the normal very expensive railway long grass!

While passing I'd point out that the number of passengers going west from Dore as commuters and leisure users to Manchester and the Hope Valley is (was?!) about twice as many as those going towards Sheffield. The service for commuters on the higher fare generating trains is much better than to Sheffield - 2 trains an hour in the evenings back from Manchester, one train an hour from Sheffield with a gap of 2 hours 33 minutes! There is a greater latent demand that would use a half hourly service to and from Sheffield as exists from New Mills into Piccadilly.

 

[tbtc]

Strikes me that we are going back to before the 60s. That's the dream of leaving Europe isn't it, isn't it ?. The good old days

You're right - it's part of the same wooly nostalgia for an apparent "golden age" - it's strange how the economically conservative people who are happy to vote in slash/burn politicians when it comes to public finances have this weak spot when it comes to quaint rural branch lines (there's something of the Orwell "Old maids cycling to communion" in it, I guess)

Heeley and Millhouses.



Quite. I don't see a proposal for either or both getting far as a standalone scheme.

However, it would be at least 10-15 years before such stations could be built, by which time Sheffield station should have had, or be about to have, a complete revamp for HS2 or MML electrification. That's going to include some form of gating, although by then the latest ticket technology will probably be quite different.

But thinking bigger, with 4 tracks from Dore into Sheffield a shuttle service from a new station at Totley would make more sense. Nobody is seriously proposing that as yet, as far as I know. It would be a serious project, although it would almost certainly get tangled up with proposals for a tram/train extention. The debate would rumble on until both ended in the normal very expensive railway long grass!

While passing I'd point out that the number of passengers going west from Dore as commuters and leisure users to Manchester and the Hope Valley is (was?!) about twice as many as those going towards Sheffield. The service for commuters on the higher fare generating trains is much better than to Sheffield - 2 trains an hour in the evenings back from Manchester, one train an hour from Sheffield with a gap of 2 hours 33 minutes! There is a greater latent demand that would use a half hourly service to and from Sheffield as exists from New Mills into Piccadilly.

Well, if there's to be a mega-scheme, then, sure, I could see them both working - there's certainly latent demand - I'm sure you could get decent passenger loads if there was to be a frequent enough local service through urban Sheffield - it would certainly be closer to houses than the proposed Woodhead re-opening is through the city - but given how long it's going to take for a modest bit of double-tracking at Dore (despite the obvious bottle-neck), I think that even a fifteen year timescale is pushing it.

Things move slowly round here. The Manchester Metrolink seem to have built a thousand miles of extensions in the time it took us for a short bit of TramTrain from Meadowhall South to Rotherham - much as I'd love to see the kind of thing you are proposing, I don't see it any time soon.

 

[Killingworth]

• 60 minutes journey time of a major employment centre Can't find a source however recall 70 minutes which puts the 3 new stations all within 60 minutes of York and Hull.
• Extant or mainly unobstructed trackbed There might be a couple of little obstructions in Pocklington and Market Weighton however suitable alternatives have been identified.

As one who recalls tavelling on the line, and has walked the area of the route in recent times, I can confirm that the Market Weighton to Beverley section would be relatively simple, although crossing the A1035 at Beverley would add a few millions.

It's likely to be neither easy or cheap to divert around or go through the obstructing new building that's now on the old trackbed at Market Weighton.

Potential level crossings, new flyovers and farm crossings abound from there into York, the first being the A614.

Pocklington requires a wide swinging south-west diversion of almost 2 miles away from the old route, more multi-millions. What's been built there is hardly a little obstruction.

There's a nice housing estate across the old route at Stamford Bridge. It's not a little obstruction either, so another wide 2 mile south-west diversion needed there across the River Derwent and the A166. Kerching!!

Approaching York the A64 and A1237 are in the way, more flyovers needed, and the trackbed is obstructed at Huntingdon, including a link road across the River Foss.

So, that's my feasibilty study summarised - it would be VERY expensive, but certainly possible. What price do we put on the current economic need to reinstate?

I'd agree it should never have been closed, but that alone's not a valid reason to reinstate from the position we're in now.