• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Restoring Your Railway Fund: what ideas would you suggest?

Status
Not open for further replies.

deltic

Established Member
Joined
8 Feb 2010
Messages
3,224
Government has published how this scheme will work.

To quote from their guidance

We have designed this process to be as straightforward as possible, rooted in the community and sponsored by local MPs. For the first round the key steps are:

· we need an expression of interest from your MP by 28 February, if you want to be in the first round of assessments

· we need a short submission making your case by 16 March 2020

· following this you be asked to pitch your proposal to a panel of experts in late March

· we hope to announce which proposals we will offer funding to within 2 weeks of the panel

· winners agree the broad train service specification to be investigated with officials

· winners work with us to develop the project’s business case to submit to the department to make the case for the project receiving more substantial development funding


So you might want to flag up to your MP asap any schemes in your area that are being proposed.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

a_c_skinner

Established Member
Joined
21 Jun 2013
Messages
1,586
Well goodness me. I've been moaning that the system is glacially slow but this is pretty sprightly. It will favour campaigns with a well worked up case.
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,306
Location
Fenny Stratford
Well goodness me. I've been moaning that the system is glacially slow but this is pretty sprightly. It will favour campaigns with a well worked up case.

it wont favour any! It is a wibble fest designed to look like the government are doing something while simultaneously earning nice PR and column inches, reinforce and profile boost some former red wall newbie Tory MPs but punting any actual funding decision off into the long grass.
 

a_c_skinner

Established Member
Joined
21 Jun 2013
Messages
1,586
You may of course be right, but this is about buying votes and I doubt a bit of a PR flourish will work unless it actually leads on to services or at least digging by the next election. The Tyne & Blyth is up there simply because it might be running trains before the election.
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,306
Location
Fenny Stratford

thanks - I know I am cynical but while £500m sounds a lot to the man on the Clapham omnibus it will deliver very little. It will be split across 3 "pots": Ideas, Acceleration, New Stations fund.

Ideas wont cost much, acceleration wont pay for physical work and new stations fund will soak up most of the money. It does nothing to speed up the crucial physical funding decision, streamline the ( according to posters here) elongated and complex planning environment or turn the clock back to 1927 when HSE didn't exist to eat up funding ( in the view of many posters here) or defragment the railway industry.

This money is going to pay for 2 or 3 stations, several studies and a nice think booklet of ideas. That is it. It is welcome but not massively helpful in "rolling back the Beaching Cuts"
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,882
Location
Reston City Centre
This money is going to pay for 2 or 3 stations, several studies and a nice think booklet of ideas. That is it. It is welcome but not massively helpful in "rolling back the Beaching Cuts"

You saved me the hassle of typing out the above!

More window dressing from a Government who are clearly better at PR than they are at delivering things - this looks like a project designed to guilt trip MPs into being seen to be backing something, even though there's not the money to invest in much - it sounds a lot of money but if it costs over a million quid for one additional carriage and over ten million quid for a mile of new railway then it's not going to buy much (other than feasibility studies).

Still, the money will be enough to get a few local campaigners excited and maybe all the money spent on new crayons will be sufficient to keep the economy going for a bit?
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,439
Surely it all depends on whether this is the ONLY money to ever become available? Has that ever been confirmed, or it just so much negativity?
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,306
Location
Fenny Stratford
Surely it all depends on whether this is the ONLY money to ever become available? Has that ever been confirmed, or it just so much negativity?

It is realism not negativity. Something often missing from this board!

OBVIOUSLY This isnt the ONLY money available but this money does nothing to unlock the funding needed to actually build a railway line.
 

Tobbes

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2012
Messages
1,242
So: go with Blyth/Ashington; Fleetwood - and reannounce Portishead and Bedford/Cambs, as well as Wixams. Advance Tavistock (short of funding it); provide additional cash for business cases for Skipton-Colne and Fawley, knowing that nothing will get done with either in the next five years. Talk about Haverhill and then support electric bus nonsense.

A pity, as rebuilding to Butingford and tunnelling down to the Hitchin-Cambs line would provide a lot of housing....
 

bluenoxid

Established Member
Joined
9 Feb 2008
Messages
2,466
£20m is to be allocated to NSF3. If it goes well, they might look at NSF3b or NSF4 so another £20m. It is only supposed to provide top up funding.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,029
Location
Yorks
It's a brilliant idea, but it does need more funding towards it. We need new stations on existing lines but we need enough money for new routes as well.

In terms of Tavistock, the Council have already purchased most of the route, how much more in the way of match funding do the Government expect ?
 

RPI

Established Member
Joined
6 Dec 2010
Messages
2,761
It's not the greatest amount of money but if it gets the ball rolling for one or two reopenings then its surely a good thing
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,029
Location
Yorks
So thats:

£100 billion for HS1
£5 billion for buses and cycleways
£28 billion for road building as well (pending legal action).

A decent £5 billion fund for reconnecting towns to the railway network seems more and more justified amongst that lot.
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,306
Location
Fenny Stratford
So thats:

£100 billion for HS1
£5 billion for buses and cycleways
£28 billion for road building as well (pending legal action).

A decent £5 billion fund for reconnecting towns to the railway network seems more and more justified amongst that lot.

No it doesn't. It seems you and others cant get over this reversing Beeching obsession and just want a pot of money to build pointless railways lines to pointless halfhorse towns! Why is it posters here seem very happy to spaff money up the wall when it is to do with trains? We need to focus on schemes that actually have a solid case not fantasy stuff that wont ever pay out.

lets start with Bedlington/Ashington and go from there. In doing that lets acknowledge how much this will cost and behave accordingly.

It's not the greatest amount of money but if it gets the ball rolling for one or two reopenings then its surely a good thing

but it wont do that will it? I repeat: This money is going to pay for 2 or 3 stations, several studies and a nice thick booklet of ideas. That is it. It is welcome but not massively helpful in "rolling back the Beaching Cuts"

You saved me the hassle of typing out the above!

More window dressing from a Government who are clearly better at PR than they are at delivering things - this looks like a project designed to guilt trip MPs into being seen to be backing something, even though there's not the money to invest in much - it sounds a lot of money but if it costs over a million quid for one additional carriage and over ten million quid for a mile of new railway then it's not going to buy much (other than feasibility studies).

Still, the money will be enough to get a few local campaigners excited and maybe all the money spent on new crayons will be sufficient to keep the economy going for a bit?

Spot on. See above!
 

Brush 4

Member
Joined
25 Nov 2018
Messages
506
You keep wilfully misunderstanding the revivalists. They know that the announcement is window dressing. The point about 5billion for reopenings alongside the other amounts for HS2 buses/cycling and roads, is valid. That is what should be happening. The fact that it isn't...yet, is the core of the complaints. What is a halfhorse town anyway? Galashiels? Portishead? Levenmouth? Bicester? See page 26 of the current Rail for the justification of the Waverley reopening. 35 miles out into the sticks. Obviously a 'pointless railway line to a pointless halfhorse town' Not. Why are these towns any more deserving of a rail reopening than those still waiting? Going back a bit further, Maesteg, Aberdare, Ebbw Vale, Vale of Glamorgan line, Bathgate, Alloa. Note the lack of English towns, which says more about the English attitude than anything. Thankfully, this is now changing for the better. We know that there isn't enough money...yet*. Why is that so hard to understand?
* The Budget MAY change this, hopefully. Then again, it may not, that would be the mistake.
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,306
Location
Fenny Stratford
You keep wilfully misunderstanding the revivalists.

No I don't. I simply try to remove the irrational, emotional guff they bring to any discussion of this sort and look at what is the best use of OUR money. I get the emotional bond with this topic but that shouldn't be the basis for a decision. We also have to acknowledge ( and this is VERY hard for people here) that the train isnt the only or often best option. A new road might be better for a certain community.

See page 26 of the current Rail for the justification of the Waverley reopening. 35 miles out into the sticks. Obviously a 'pointless railway line to a pointless halfhorse town'

The line to Tweedbank didn't have a fantastic business case but was pushed forward by local politicians who wanted a win. How many of your lovely proposals or your other re openings have that? Perhaps that might be the real issue.

Thankfully, this is now changing for the better. We know that there isn't enough money...yet*. Why is that so hard to understand?

It. isnt. changing.

It is fluff and nonsense and you and others gobble it up. Changing is providing the 10's of extra £billions needed to actually build something not giving £2.50 to draw up a nice glossy study brochure. Posters here are so credulous!
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,211
So thats:

£100 billion for HS1
£5 billion for buses and cycleways
£28 billion for road building as well (pending legal action).

A decent £5 billion fund for reconnecting towns to the railway network seems more and more justified amongst that lot.

Just on a point of order it is:

£80bn on HS2, over the next 15-20 years, of which only £40bn or so is actually confirmed for the next 12 years.
£5bn for buses and cycleways over the next 5 years
£25bn (not £28b) for the strategic road network to cover new roads, enhancements to existing roads and renewal over the 5 year period from 1 April.
£28.9bn for Network Rail rail to cover new lines, enhancement to existing lines, and renewal over the current 5 year period.
 

Brush 4

Member
Joined
25 Nov 2018
Messages
506
I already said, they know that there isn't enough, that IS the problem. It doesn't matter why a reopening decision is made, political or otherwise, it worked for the Waverley. It wouldn't have happened if 'realists' ie pessimists had had their negative way.
It has changed. Again, the reason is irrelevant. HS2, Portishead, East-West. They are changes. You have an amazing way of filtering out what has happened, to focus only on those that haven't, because it is just conjecture as to whether they will prove successful or not so, easy to dismiss airily. I mentioned 10 reopenings that have or are going to happen, yet you ignore them because they don't fit your non-argument.

edit. Just seen your new post. Does new lines mean just that or, include reopenings?
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,882
Location
Reston City Centre
A decent £5 billion fund for reconnecting towns to the railway network seems more and more justified amongst that lot.

Only if you start from a position that re-connecting various small rural towns is an end in itself (rather than one of a long list of means to improve use of public transport).

Some people are obsessed with such things, sure, but the idea of setting aside five *billion* quid just to spend on putting an expensive/inflexible form of mass transportation between the kind of small towns that struggle to sustain a commercial minibus service would be an obscene waste of public money.

Funny how some enthusiasts are outraged at the idea of a franchise change meaning staff get new uniforms after "only" seven years, but are fine at the idea of spending billions to bring heavy rail to areas where the population density is more suited to Dial-A-Ride.

You keep wilfully misunderstanding the revivalists

I don't misunderstand them - their approach is transparent - hence the kneejerk reaction to suggest that heavy rail comes to some backwater village/town (that would be lovely for them to visit on a summer holiday) rather than looking at a list of where heavy rail might be more suited.

Hence the reason that any thread like this will quickly fill up with mention of quaint scenic routes like Skipton - Colne, Tavistock - Okehampton, Uckfield - Lewes, Penistone - Hadfield, Tweedbank - Carlisle (every time!) … rather than looking at where demand is in the twenty first century (and therefore, if we *must* open new lines, rather than just use that as one option available), suggest places like Skelmersdale (which might not be as tourist friendly as some of the lines that always get suggested but would put many more bums on seats than trundling around rural Devon.

Build railways to where large numbers of people travel on predictable patterns - that's what heavy rail is best at. If you want to connect Tavistock to Okehampton then buy a second hand Optare Solo and run it (though you might want to take some of the seats out first).
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,306
Location
Fenny Stratford
I already said, they know that there isn't enough, that IS the problem. It doesn't matter why a reopening decision is made, political or otherwise, it worked for the Waverley. It wouldn't have happened if 'realists' ie pessimists had had their negative way.
It has changed. Again, the reason is irrelevant. HS2, Portishead, East-West. They are changes. You have an amazing way of filtering out what has happened, to focus only on those that haven't, because it is just conjecture as to whether they will prove successful or not so, easy to dismiss airily. I mentioned 10 reopenings that have or are going to happen, yet you ignore them because they don't fit your non-argument.

edit. Just seen your new post. Does new lines mean just that or, include reopenings?

I am finding it quite hard to understand the point you are making.

I note 4 stations and, I assume 2 lines mentioned in your post. They were all extensions to existing services and/or connections to major centres of employment locally generating large numbers of commuters. The suggestions you and others make are not for lines like this. They are usually for lines in rural locations serving tiny towns. That is why I say somewhere like Ashington or Bedlington ( or Skelmersdale as @tbtc suggests) are sensible suggestions ( Portishead I don't know enough about but i suspect is a similar case). They have a population who commute to the local city and will do so in numbers helping to pay back the investment. We should be focusing our money on the demand like that not the romance of the country branch line and a little train puffing off to the seaside.

I also feel including HS2 in your argument is disingenuous at best. It isnt a railway line of the normal sort! Also E-W is a main line linking several areas of large economic activity, research, science, cutting edge engineering and education though areas of high population, decent wealth AND locations where large new towns are to be built .

Finally, how much of these do you think you get for £500m?
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,306
Location
Fenny Stratford
See page 26 of the current Rail for the justification of the Waverley reopening.

just been and looked at a copy of this mag. There is mention of record passenger numbers on the Tweedbank line. May I point out that this fact alone does not prove a business case. If my case was built on 1m journeys a year, say, and I return 500k the case hasn't been met!
 

Brush 4

Member
Joined
25 Nov 2018
Messages
506
Again, just dismissive easy conjecture, because the lines are still closed. The facts are unknown until or unless they reopen. Business cases are just conjecture on shiny paper, whether positive or negative. Predicting future outcomes can only be guesswork. It proved wrong on the Waverley and no doubt some of the others. I don't care if a reopening is in an urban or rural area. Skelmersdale is fine if that is a serious project. Being rural doesn't make a reopening unrealistic. again, Galashiels. If romanticism was the only criteria, the S&D would probably top the polls. I think we can agree that will never happen.
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,306
Location
Fenny Stratford
Again, just dismissive easy conjecture, because the lines are still closed. The facts are unknown until or unless they reopen. Business cases are just conjecture on shiny paper, whether positive or negative. Predicting future outcomes can only be guesswork. It proved wrong on the Waverley and no doubt some of the others. I don't care if a reopening is in an urban or rural area. Skelmersdale is fine if that is a serious project. Being rural doesn't make a reopening unrealistic. again, Galashiels. If romanticism was the only criteria, the S&D would probably top the polls. I think we can agree that will never happen.

It is clear you have no understanding of this topic or how funding works. I am sorry to be blunt but further discussion is pointless.
 

Brush 4

Member
Joined
25 Nov 2018
Messages
506
That was a reply to tbtc above.
I'm all for Skelmersdale, Ashington and Hoo. all good. We know £500,000 is nowhere near enough, that is the point that you don't get. Far more is needed.
 

Brush 4

Member
Joined
25 Nov 2018
Messages
506
There you go, putting your hands over your ears when you don't have a response that is valid. I mentioned 10 reopened lines not stations, that would run into 3 figures I suspect. I include HS2 because it is still rail expansion, which is the objective. You just accept the current Government infrastructure mechanism as if it is set in stone and will never change. Changes happen with every new administration.

I forgot the Nottingham - Mansfield line and, the new tram/light rail routes everywhere. The GWR lines around Brum/Wolverhampton was a welcome return., even as light rail.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,029
Location
Yorks
No it doesn't. It seems you and others cant get over this reversing Beeching obsession and just want a pot of money to build pointless railways lines to pointless halfhorse towns! Why is it posters here seem very happy to spaff money up the wall when it is to do with trains? We need to focus on schemes that actually have a solid case not fantasy stuff that wont ever pay out.

lets start with Bedlington/Ashington and go from there. In doing that lets acknowledge how much this will cost and behave accordingly.



but it wont do that will it? I repeat: This money is going to pay for 2 or 3 stations, several studies and a nice thick booklet of ideas. That is it. It is welcome but not massively helpful in "rolling back the Beaching Cuts"



Spot on. See above!

As I've said, we already have a nascent set of proposals in the Connecting Communities report. Why 'spaff money up the wall' when we can select the best from these, just as we select the best cases for the new stations fund.

I'm presuming that there will be some way of properly administering the £5 billion bus and cycleway fund, so there's no reason there can't be for a new connections fund.

An argument against poor administration, does not negate the merit of the fund in the first place.

Just on a point of order it is:

£80bn on HS2, over the next 15-20 years, of which only £40bn or so is actually confirmed for the next 12 years.
£5bn for buses and cycleways over the next 5 years
£25bn (not £28b) for the strategic road network to cover new roads, enhancements to existing roads and renewal over the 5 year period from 1 April.
£28.9bn for Network Rail rail to cover new lines, enhancement to existing lines, and renewal over the current 5 year period.

Point taken - I'm recounting the figures I've seen reported.

It's worth bearing in mind that the strategic road network is only a proportion of roads, and in the context of £29 billion spent on the existing rail network over the next five years, £5 billion over a similar period to achieve a permanent step-change in the coverage and reach of the network seems entirely reasonable.

Only if you start from a position that re-connecting various small rural towns is an end in itself (rather than one of a long list of means to improve use of public transport).

Some people are obsessed with such things, sure, but the idea of setting aside five *billion* quid just to spend on putting an expensive/inflexible form of mass transportation between the kind of small towns that struggle to sustain a commercial minibus service would be an obscene waste of public money.

Funny how some enthusiasts are outraged at the idea of a franchise change meaning staff get new uniforms after "only" seven years, but are fine at the idea of spending billions to bring heavy rail to areas where the population density is more suited to Dial-A-Ride.



I don't misunderstand them - their approach is transparent - hence the kneejerk reaction to suggest that heavy rail comes to some backwater village/town (that would be lovely for them to visit on a summer holiday) rather than looking at a list of where heavy rail might be more suited.

Hence the reason that any thread like this will quickly fill up with mention of quaint scenic routes like Skipton - Colne, Tavistock - Okehampton, Uckfield - Lewes, Penistone - Hadfield, Tweedbank - Carlisle (every time!) … rather than looking at where demand is in the twenty first century (and therefore, if we *must* open new lines, rather than just use that as one option available), suggest places like Skelmersdale (which might not be as tourist friendly as some of the lines that always get suggested but would put many more bums on seats than trundling around rural Devon.

Build railways to where large numbers of people travel on predictable patterns - that's what heavy rail is best at. If you want to connect Tavistock to Okehampton then buy a second hand Optare Solo and run it (though you might want to take some of the seats out first).

Small and medium sized rural towns require decent public transport too. And nobody's suggesting that the £5billion on buses and cycle routes isn't a good thing, so I don't know where you get this idea of prople only being interested in heavy rail.

Secondly, if you don't understand why people tend to prioritise expenditure on being able to actually get somewhere, rather than fancy uniforms, then you should be on a fashion forum, not a transport one.

Thirdly, I refer you to my earlier point about selecting the best cases for reconnecting towns.
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,306
Location
Fenny Stratford
As I've said, we already have a nascent set of proposals in the Connecting Communities report. Why 'spaff money up the wall' when we can select the best from these, just as we select the best cases for the new stations fund.

but this money isnt designed to do that. It is designed to buy positive spin and waste time until people move on to something else/the next election occurs when this money will be pointed to as doing something.

I also suspect your "best" and my "best" are very different!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top