DarloRich
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Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...is-there-not-a-common-name-we-can-use.205177/
Is IEP a project or a program?
Is IEP a project or a program?
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Was the InterCity Express Programme (IEP) a success or not?
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43096
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Fiasco would be more appropriate!Is IEP a project or a program?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The programme was, but it hasn't delivered a particularly bad train in the scheme of things. Nor is it excessively priced if ordered outside of said programme.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
A costly fiasco!
Is IEP a project or a program?
Programme, as it was a series of individual projects.
43096
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No, it has delivered a truly appalling train. See the current Modern Railways...
What, a faster and higher capacity train, you mean....?
Purple Orange
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I’m a big fan of the train. I hated travelling on a HST, I don’t so much like Pendolinos but they are ok, I hate travelling on a Voyager, 225s were good too. The IET units look good too.
Bletchleyite
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I did, and I don't agree with them, to be honest. The seats are rubbish, but that would be neither expensive nor time-consuming to fix (all it would require is a replacement cushion to a slightly different design). Other than the seats there isn't a lot I dislike about them. They are certainly welcome on the WCML, and where possible I will choose them over Pendolinos.
The MR article under discussion just seems to wax lyrical about what if they had been LHCS and slightly shorter vehicles.
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Was it Ian Walmsley by any chance? MR writers are very technically excellent but they do have "bees in their bonnets" at times, driven by the railway they remember, not the railway of the future.
43096
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You need to re-read the article then.
I'm not talking about top speed, the acceleration rate on electric blows away that of an HST, Pendolino or Mk4 set. And they unquestionably have more seats, which is what the vast majority of passengers are most interested in.
And I've worked comfortably on a laptop multiple times, and taken my kids on them using the seatback tables.
(I do agree luggage space could be better having done Paddington-St Erth with two kids, prams and luggage).
Not sure about the "More Expensive" claim, but dare I suggest that's a fairly selective MR quote? How does, for example, the maintainability of the fleet compare?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I believe they are (like the Javelins, to which they are very similar, being fellow AT300 series trains) capable of 140 on electricity.
Subjective, and mostly relating to the seats which could be changed. The WCML sets will have a different design.
Untrue. The very large overheads will take most bags unlike the smaller ones on HSTs. But even so, I would support putting a floor level rack in all four of the door pockets per coach which would completely solve this by providing the same amount of capacity as Mk3s had by the vestibule door at the loss of between 4 and 8 seats per vehicle which nobody likes anyway as they're narrow and have no view out.
I find it better than a Mk3 which always feels very rough to me with a lot of side to side sway. The well-riding UK trains are classes 158 and 221. I don't get what people see in the Mk3 ride at all. It was better than the Mk2 and remains better than the Mk4, but that's not saying much at all.
Than what?
I saw that and amusing though it is I don't agree with it (other than the part about the seats - and indeed the only things I find wrong with the seats would be fixed by way of replacement cushions, as indeed it was on the GNER refurbished Mk4s).
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Purple Orange
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I guess those of us who don’t see it that way are wrong then.
To be fair, what a senior railway engineer thinks of the quality of the ride and seats is no more valid than that of members of the travelling public, the very people who use the service each day.
I read comments from folk about the seats etc and perhaps they should see a specialist for their back. Its either that or people are holding a candle to days gone by for HST units (horrible polluting train, horrible train interior, especially the old BR interior), LHCS or the days of when the railway was in decline and fewer people used the services.
As an analogy, it's a bit like when Chris Evans took over from the late Sir Terry Wogan on the Radio 2 breakfast show. Previous listeners complained of Evans being "shouty", when all it was was a completely different broadcasting style of Evans, not trying to achieve the same thing. i.e. people were complaining simply because it was *different*, rather than objectively about "is this actually a better product about what a breakfast show should be about?"
If anything, I preferred Evans's energy first thing in the morning to get me going for the day...
Purple Orange
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Although this is a slight tangent but it flows on from the conversation, what type of seats do the IET units use on GWR, TPE and LNER in standard and first? I’ve only travelled on a TPE unit so I can’t really comment on GWR or LNER. Has anyone travelled on all three?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The Standard seat is the infamous Fainsa Sophia. I don't know what the First Class one is called. Yes, I've been on them all and they are identical bar the colour and type of covering.
Think the TPE Mk5a sets are the same too, aren't they?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Yep, all TPE sets use the same type of seat in Standard. In First it's the same seat base but a different cushion.
But IW isn’t going to quote other senior managers who say ‘the train is great’ (and there’s plenty who think that), as it doesn’t suit the tone of his story.
The biggest issue with these trains is actually not visible to the passenger, and that is the maintenance arrangements. Now that is a problem.
hexagon789
Veteran Member
And yet nothing thus far in the UK that I'm aware of has managed to surpass the ride index of Mk3 coaches but there is an element of subjectiveness to how people perceive ride quality, at least the ride index has some science behind it
Purple Orange
On Moderation
Well if they
Well if they are all the same, I don’t see the issue. No more or less comfortable than a pendolino or voyager, HSTs or IC225s.
IW quotes several other professionals who give more printable but also negative views. It's the accompanying article which is interesting. The DfT had decided on the supplier from the start, and no TOC or indeed anybody in the Industry, had any input. Hence the pocket doors and windowless seats. And the 5-coach sets. And the seats. And....
And as for consulting the passengers...
And as for consulting the passengers...
Purple Orange
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The only issue i have with the trains are that i think TPE should look to be running 7 car trains, which long term is more akin to what is suggested for NPR.
irish_rail
Established Member
Common fleets across the country is a good idea
Shame about the seating and ludicrous number of 5 car sets ordered on certain routes .
Shame about the seating and ludicrous number of 5 car sets ordered on certain routes .
Nym
Established Member
No, too expensive, too preparatory, too lower quality, and as a result of the usual DfT isms, not at all appropriate.
Fainsa MD (it stands for media distancia / medium distance).
CapitalStar378
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Uncomfortable seats, super bight lights, no buffet car.
Positive is that it has more tables than the high density GWR HSTs.
A poor replacement overall, especially compared to the original, revolutionary HSTs.
Not a step up in any way, just an electric (ish) replacement.
Positive is that it has more tables than the high density GWR HSTs.
A poor replacement overall, especially compared to the original, revolutionary HSTs.
Not a step up in any way, just an electric (ish) replacement.
I personally think they are very good trains, from an average passengers perspective. My father described them to me as "an improvement in every way apart from the seats". This is GWR HST Vs IET first class. They are however very boring and uninteresting from an enthusiasts perspective. When I find myself on one I often forget my interest in rail and become a normal passenger who just wants to get from A to B.
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