Class 313, a shoddy build?

[Fincra5]

I was talking to Andy, who works for Southern, earlier and he informed me that progress is very slow for the 313 modifications as it appears that each unit is wired up differently to the other, meaning almost non of the units match the diagrams

I wouldn't be suprised

 

[asylumxl]

Yeh. They've got questionable build and reliability. Jeremy Clarkson would call it character, everyone else calls it bad workmanship.

 

[313103]

Amazingly they lasted well with British Rail, Network South East, North London Railways, Silverlink Train Services & London Overground. Pity Southern cant run them properly.

 

[Failed Unit]

Amazingly they lasted well with British Rail, Network South East, North London Railways, Silverlink Train Services & London Overground. Pity Southern cant run them properly.

I am also surprised to hear they are classed as a shoddy build. The biggest cause of failure when I was using them daily was the voltage change at Drayton Park sometimes didn't happen, but it wasn't a frequent fault. Southern don't need to worry about that. I don't recall them running bottom of the league for reliability.

 

[Aictos]

Amazingly they lasted well with British Rail, Network South East, North London Railways, Silverlink Train Services & London Overground. Pity Southern cant run them properly.

Or even British Rail Eastern Region, Network South East, West Anglia Great Northern, First Capital Connect for the GN 313s,

Yes they are old and in need of replacement BUT with a refurb similar to the Southern proposed one with onboard CIS which the GN ones don't have then they could last for another 15 or 20 years easily with a bit of TLC.

Look at the HSTs, they're getting on but they will no doubt will continue for the same amount of years as the 313s.

 

[Failed Unit]

Look at the HSTs, they're getting on but they will no doubt will continue for the same amount of years as the 313s.

Correct me if I am wrong but are the 313's not about a 1976 build?

Would the Moorgate tunnels require a new build, ie a 319 would not fit as the roof would be too high? (Yes I know that a 319 is 4 coaches so could not be worked in Multiple). But when the 313's time comes will a special build be needed or could they just build a 6 car 378 for example. (but with proper seats!)

 

[Fincra5]

Amazingly they lasted well with British Rail, Network South East, North London Railways, Silverlink Train Services & London Overground. Pity Southern cant run them properly.

Thats probably because they never tried to modify the trains like Southern are. Take the in-train guard controls being fitted, when they fit them most of the wires on one unit aren't the same on the other, making it a very hard process to fit them

 

[Aictos]

Thats probably because they never tried to modify the trains like Southern are. Take the in-train guard controls being fitted, when they fit them most of the wires on one unit aren't the same on the other, making it a very hard process to fit them

Huh, why would Southern need to fit the in-train guard controls? Surely as they used to be worked by guards then the controls are still there?

I know the guard panels on the GN 313s are still there but have been modified so they only become active if a driving desk is unlocked rather then using a 21 key in the panel behind the driver's seat.

Correct me if I am wrong but are the 313's not about a 1976 build?

Would the Moorgate tunnels require a new build, ie a 319 would not fit as the roof would be too high? (Yes I know that a 319 is 4 coaches so could not be worked in Multiple). But when the 313's time comes will a special build be needed or could they just build a 6 car 378 for example. (but with proper seats!)

At this time I don't think there are any plans to retire the 313s but it all depends on what happens after 2015 when the FCC franchise expires and it remains to see who will actually run the Inners, will First win the franchise to 2035 (20 year franchise being the norm) or will it go over to LOROL or finally a new company coming in.

It might be that who ever runs the services after 2015 might wish to retire the 313s and replace them with 378s with decent seating I might add!

 

[O L Leigh]

Would the Moorgate tunnels require a new build, ie a 319 would not fit as the roof would be too high? (Yes I know that a 319 is 4 coaches so could not be worked in Multiple). But when the 313's time comes will a special build be needed or could they just build a 6 car 378 for example. (but with proper seats!)

*Bangs head on desk yet again*

Yes, the Cl313's have a lower roof line than most mainline stock. No, this has nothing to do with the clearance inside the Moorgate "Drain". If this was the case, every Cl313 that ventured south of Drayton Park would lose it's VCB (the big barrel shaped thing in front of the pan that sticks up a good distance above the roof) and that would be the end of that.

O L Leigh

 

[Failed Unit]

*Bangs head on desk yet again*

Yes, the Cl313's have a lower roof line than most mainline stock. No, this has nothing to do with the clearance inside the Moorgate "Drain". If this was the case, every Cl313 that ventured south of Drayton Park would lose it's VCB (the big barrel shaped thing in front of the pan that sticks up a good distance above the roof) and that would be the end of that.

O L Leigh

Sorry

So one day we may see 378's down the drain.... But I suspect the 313's will be around a little while longer yet they are still doing the job they were intended to do without causing too many problems.

 

[swt_passenger]

Huh, why would Southern need to fit the in-train guard controls? Surely as they used to be worked by guards then the controls are still there?

Maybe they want their guards to carry on moving around the train on revenue duties, like on the 377s, using the nearest door, rather than returning to the back cab?

 

[Fincra5]

Maybe they want their guards to carry on moving around the train on revenue duties, like on the 377s, using the nearest door, rather than returning to the back cab?

That is exactly why. It means the guard can easily check tickets without having to dart to the back of the train each stop.

 

[devon_metro]

They can't be that shoddy if they are 35 years old and still in service!

 

[rail-britain]

The same issue also affects the Class 314 units
I remember Shields Road tried swapping a driving car, cobbling one set together whilst two other vehicles were being repaired
Initially they thought it was the jumper cables to replaced them, no difference
On testing the driving car was working, so they turned it round and connected it to the other end of the pantograph car, but still nothing
They then realised the wiring of the pantograph car was different to that of the driving car
Equally, when the repaired vehicles returned they forgot to turn the driving car around and the two units sat for nearly two weeks until someone remembered how they had been setup before splitting!
After that the units had plates applied next to the jumper cables "Not to be swapped to another unit - 314xxx only"

 

[Aictos]

That is exactly why. It means the guard can easily check tickets without having to dart to the back of the train each stop.

Pardon me for asking but how did the North London Line Guards cope then?

 

[Failed Unit]

Pardon me for asking but how did the North London Line Guards cope then?

They never checked tickets.

 

[A60K]

Pardon me for asking but how did the North London Line Guards cope then?

By not checking tickets!

 

[Fincra5]

When ever i got on one the guard was always in the rear cab and never checked tickets. On busy services such as the NLL it was probably better for the guard to be in the rear anyway

 

[paul1609]

On the coastway lines many of the stations are close together and only have permit to travel machines. It is a local custom that you look for the guard and get on at his door to buy a ticket

 

[jon0844]

On the NLL, it was probably safer for the guard never to venture into the actual passenger area!!

I think the 313s (at least the FCC ones) are rock solid and rarely seem to fail. There was/is a problem with the thermostats (meaning the heating doesn't work properly) and FCC is only changing them as they fail, but besides that the trains usually work most of the time.

Obviously a failed train somewhere on the Northern City line spells disaster, but it seems to be mostly down to signal problems whenever trains get diverted, not a failed train.

Of course, the non-FCC 313s may well be in a dire state. I remember seeing just how bad the NLL trains were (and in the early 2000s, how bad the One 315s were) so maybe there are good examples and bad examples.

 

[313103]

They never checked tickets.

Not quite true, Guards never did tickets on the Willesden Junction to Stratford/ North Woolwich section. The reason being with a station every one to two minutes the Guard couldnt do both the doors and revenue protection and it was also the busiest section of the line.

Trials were carried out on the less busiest section Willesden to Richmond but revenue was considered to be low every time a Guard went through and at least one member of staff was severly assaulted by a member of the public in the persuinence of revenue collection.

On the West London Line conductors were recruited for revenue collection as this was to be operated like a pay train and at the time the trains only stopped at Kensington Olympia and the units were initially class 117 dmu's. When electrication took place the 117s were replaced by 313s and revenue was continued. However when unit 313 022 (as was) had the door key switch removed the train would come to a grinding halt as a mod was done that wasnt meant to have happened. For a few months this unit was forbidden to operate on the WLL and when it was put on the WLL revenue could not be done. This mod was removed and could go back on the WLL.

Revenue collection by the Guard on the West London was discontinued when Silverlink reintroduced a Penalty fares scheme in 2005, the rules dont allow for revenue collection by Guards on a train when a penalty fare scheme is in place.

Complete revenue collection by Guards on the former Silverlink metro network was withdrawn when London Overground expanded the penalty fare scheme to the Gospel Oak to Barking line in January 2008.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

By not checking tickets!

 

[Aictos]

Thank you 313103 for clarifying the role of the guards and the 313s on your patch.

 

[Failed Unit]

Not quite true, Guards never did tickets on the Willesden Junction to Stratford/ North Woolwich section. The reason being with a station every one to two minutes the Guard couldnt do both the doors and revenue protection and it was also the busiest section of the line.

Trials were carried out on the less busiest section Willesden to Richmond but revenue was considered to be low every time a Guard went through and at least one member of staff was severly assaulted by a member of the public in the persuinence of revenue collection.

On the West London Line conductors were recruited for revenue collection as this was to be operated like a pay train and at the time the trains only stopped at Kensington Olympia and the units were initially class 117 dmu's. When electrication took place the 117s were replaced by 313s and revenue was continued. However when unit 313 022 (as was) had the door key switch removed the train would come to a grinding halt as a mod was done that wasnt meant to have happened. For a few months this unit was forbidden to operate on the WLL and when it was put on the WLL revenue could not be done. This mod was removed and could go back on the WLL.

Revenue collection by the Guard on the West London was discontinued when Silverlink reintroduced a Penalty fares scheme in 2005, the rules dont allow for revenue collection by Guards on a train when a penalty fare scheme is in place.

Complete revenue collection by Guards on the former Silverlink metro network was withdrawn when London Overground expanded the penalty fare scheme to the Gospel Oak to Barking line in January 2008.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But for me the problem isn't the gaurds not having time to check / sell tickets in between all the other safety critical duties they had, it was Silverlink never bothering to get inspectors on the trains to check (or at least not when I used them). RPI's could have quite easily been patrolling the lines, but I never saw them once on the frequent stop North London lines. As you have said yourself the primary role of a gaurd is NOT revenue protection.

 

[paul1609]

Revenue collection by the Guard on the West London was discontinued when Silverlink reintroduced a Penalty fares scheme in 2005, the rules dont allow for revenue collection by Guards on a train when a penalty fare scheme is in place.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sorry dont understand that, All of the Southern franchise is in a penalty fare zone except a few unmanned stations which are exempt. Guards issue tickets on every Southern service as far as I'm aware.

 

[Sun Chariot]

With their feisty and set-unique wiring, has anyone checked whether BREL of '76 actually subcontracted the electrical fitting out to Alfa Romeo...

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Sorry dont understand that, All of the Southern franchise is in a penalty fare zone except a few unmanned stations which are exempt. Guards issue tickets on every Southern service as far as I'm aware.

I've never seen any staff ever walk through on services between Epsom and Victoria.

 

[swt_passenger]

Sorry dont understand that, All of the Southern franchise is in a penalty fare zone except a few unmanned stations which are exempt. Guards issue tickets on every Southern service as far as I'm aware.

One of DfT's penalty fare regulations 'recommends' that tickets are not sold on trains as it weakens the system. In practice the TOCs only seem to enforce this in metro areas, but outside these areas commercial guards are supposed to issue a PF warning at the same time as a ticket is issued, which explains what would have happened if an RPI had got there first...

Another thread has just appeared with the info, so link added:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=34450

 

[BlythPower]

I was talking to Andy, who works for Southern, earlier and he informed me that progress is very slow for the 313 modifications as it appears that each unit is wired up differently to the other, meaning almost non of the units match the diagrams

I wouldn't be suprised

Is it maybe just possible that they were wired fairly similarly when built, but 30-odd years of maintenance and repairs has diverged them somewhat..?

 

[Juniper Driver]

Is it maybe just possible that they were wired fairly similarly when built, but 30-odd years of maintenance and repairs has diverged them somewhat..?

The rumour has it that the 442 units were the same in that respect....

 

[Fincra5]

Is it maybe just possible that they were wired fairly similarly when built, but 30-odd years of maintenance and repairs has diverged them somewhat..?

That would make sence