Boss of Northern Rail Has a theory about why passengers are not prepared to travel.

[Skymonster]

The man in charge of Northern's rail services has a theory about why passengers aren't getting on trains yet

A transport expert appointed by the Government to run the North's biggest rail operator says he fears passengers are not "psychologically ready" to return to train travel in large numbers after months of being told to avoid public transport.

www.yorkshirepost.co.uk

A transport expert appointed by the Government to run the North's biggest rail operator says he fears passengers are not "psychologically ready" to return to train travel in large numbers after months of being told to avoid public transport...

"But as we stand at the moment, we are treading that balancing act between complying with the regulations on social distancing and providing as much capacity as we can, given that the capacity itself is constrained by by some of the resources we have available to do it.

"The thing that I'm worried about for the long term is the psychology of it for our customers. And the psychology of are they ready to come back, we want them to come back, we can't with the current social distancing but even if we swept away all the social distancing, are they psychologically ready to come back to the railways? And I worry about that because that has a longer term implication."

Unbelievable. The company this guy runs has done more than any other TOC to discourage rail travel, and now he’s questioning why passengers are psychologically unwilling to return to the railway. He really shouldn’t be in the job if he doesn’t realise it’s his company’s policies that are responsible for some of the damage.

Moderator note: for the avoidance of doubt, Richard George is actually the Chair of DfT OLR Holdings Ltd, not Northern Trains.

 

[Skymonster]

It would have been appropriate for him to show some contrition and remorse for the company's decisions, especially as Northern has been more hardline than any other TOC

 

[yorksrob]

From my journey today, there seem to be plenty willing to travel on TPE. But they have usable, robust timetables and long trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So it's not, for example, that his company has been telling them not to well beyond that being official advice? Then just quietly turned off that advice without saying "now you can come back and go to the beach"?

Seriously?

If he's that incompetent he should resign.

 

[yorksrob]

Apply for the job then if you have the experience and knowledge. Your comments prove you do !!!

Or maybe he is telling it as he sees the current situation having followed the Cummings/Johnson ’guidelines’

There's an element of truth in what he says. But frankly you can't expect the passengers to turn up if you're not going to run the service. No psychology about that.

 

[Huntergreed]

This is hilarious.

Northern continued the 'essential only' message longer than any other TOC (bar perhaps EMR), and now Northern are wondering why passengers don't feel like they can come onboard?

It doesn't exactly take a rocket, or in this case an economic, scientist to figure out the issue here.

Funny thing is, it's not the government or media that's caused this, it's his company.

 

[Skymonster]

So it's not, for example, that his company has been telling them not to well beyond that being official advice? Then just quietly turned off that advice without saying "now you can come back and go to the beach"?

Seriously?

If he's that incompetent he should resign.

Northern has been far more aggressive about discouraging travel than many other TOCs, all of which are under government oversight at the moment. For that he must bear responsibility.

 

[Bishopstone]

Valid points, though.

Public transport only makes sense when it’s well-used, but if nervous prospective passengers believe their train will be busy then - given what we’ve all just been through - they may decide to travel another way, or not at all.

To get the trains busy again, you need to ensure they’re lightly loaded to foster confidence: now, solve that conundrum.

 

[scotrail158713]

This is funny but concerning at the same time - it’s not rocket science Mr George.
Part of me now expects to see something similar from whoever runs Scotrail as well. I was passing through Prestonpans station the other day and there’s still signs asking you to consider if your journey is really essential.

 

[yorkie]

Northern has been far more aggressive about discouraging travel than many other TOCs, all of which are under government oversight at the moment. For that he must bear responsibility.

Absolutely.

I don't understand how @45107 can defend Northern.

Northern were NOT following the Government guidelines for many weeks; the guidelines did not state "essential travel" for a very long time before Northern dropped that message.

For weeks, people were complaining to Twitter about the company's anti-passenger attitude; the company ignored those complaints. On the weekend of 4/5 July, the majority of Tweets sent to Twitter seemed to be complaining about this!

Northern have brought this on themselves.

To get the trains busy again, you need to ensure they’re lightly loaded to foster confidence: now, solve that conundrum.

The trains are generally very lightly loaded because people have been mislead into thinking that only "essential" travel has been allowed until very recently.

 

[Mintona]

Northern are run by the government. I’d imagine any advice they have given is coming directly from the DfT.

 

[johnnychips]

PIS on my Northern service still saying ‘these trains are for essential journeys only’ or something very similar today.

 

[45107]

Absolutely.

I don't understand how @45107 can defend Northern.

I am not defending Northern. I maintain my view that the TOCS were/are interpreting/following DfT advice.
It is possibly the case, as with everything related to C-19, that the ‘internal’ advice is different to the public advice and the TOCs are left on their own to deal with it.
Look at the public comments from Johnson and what follows later.......

 

[Llandudno]

Meanwhile on TfW non essential travel is still outlawed!

No doubt the TfW CEO will come out with similar diatribe as the Northern MD - in about two months time!

 

[trainophile]

I've used Northern between Wigan and Southport both ways this week, and not encountered any aggressive deterrent to boarding or being on the train.

However as mentioned above, TfW are a different matter, so much so that I currently won't book with them. Also Merseyrail still seem to be preaching the "is your journey essential?" mantra. I've been using West Midlands, Avanti and Northern to make my journeys, and not once been asked if I really needed to use the train. Ironically through tickets are miles cheaper too.

 

[yorkie]

I am not defending Northern. I maintain my view that the TOCS were/are interpreting/following DfT advice.

Well, you are mistaken, as the Government Guidance ceased saying "essential travel only" weeks ago; this was pointed out on here, and to Northern directly, on many occasions.

Meanwhile on TfW non essential travel is still outlawed!

No doubt the TfW CEO will come out with similar diatribe as the Northern MD - in about two months time!

There is a separate thread for that

I've used Northern between Wigan and Southport both ways this week, and not encountered any aggressive deterrent to boarding or being on the train.

The actual staff on the ground are not like this; it's just the message the company sends out via social media, announcements etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've used Northern between Wigan and Southport both ways this week, and not encountered any aggressive deterrent to boarding or being on the train.

However as mentioned above, TfW are a different matter, so much so that I currently won't book with them. Also Merseyrail still seem to be preaching the "is your journey essential?" mantra. I've been using West Midlands, Avanti and Northern to make my journeys, and not once been asked if I really needed to use the train. Ironically through tickets are miles cheaper too.

My Dad made a non-essential journey on Merseyrail last week and was not prevented from doing so.

 

[trainophile]

My Dad made a non-essential journey on Merseyrail last week and was not prevented from doing so.

Not prevented as such, but both I and a poster on Twitter have reported being asked on board by an officer what the reason for our journey was, which felt like having to pass an exam. The officers weren't aggressive, quite pleasant actually, but the fact remains that it feels out of order for them to interrogate passengers who have been allowed to purchase a valid ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not prevented as such, but both I and a poster on Twitter have reported being asked on board by an officer what the reason for our journey was, which felt like having to pass an exam. The officers weren't aggressive, quite pleasant actually, but the fact remains that it feels out of order for them to interrogate passengers who have been allowed to purchase a valid ticket.

Particularly given that at all but 4 stations a ticket for travel only on Merseyrail is purchased from a person, so any question as to whether the journey should take place or not should be dealt with exclusively at the point of purchase. Selling a ticket then denying or questioning its use is rather bait-and-switch.

 

[trainophile]

You don't actually have to buy your ticket at a station, especially if Merseyrail is part of a through journey, but I take your point.

 

[Huntergreed]

For anyone who is in doubt of how ridiculous this situation really is, here’s a simplification:

Sam starts selling apples at his school, he’s trading well, then the school suddenly find out apples are poisonous and will kill you. The school announce this to everyone and Sam puts up a sign “do not buy my apples, they are deadly”. 2 months later the school realises apples are safe and stop saying they are deadly. Despite this, Sam spends 2 further months announcing his apples are deadly, keeping up his sign, posting this on social media, having some of his other students spread the same message but slowly stop doing so. 2 months after that, Sam finally takes down his sign, but he doesn’t make an announcement that apples are safe, he just takes the sign down. Sam gets no customers, and is extremely confused as to why this is.

This may sound stupid, but it’s exactly what’s happened and it’s utterly shameful and questionable that someone high up in management at a TOC would question this (would Sam question this)?

 

[SteveM70]

Wow. It’s as if he’s trying to make David Brown look competent

 

[trainophile]

It's a bit like Edwina Currie and the salmonella eggs. Took ages before people felt safe eating them again.

 

[SteveM70]

It's a bit like Edwina Currie and the salmonella eggs. Took ages before people felt safe eating them again.

Until the next scare came along about something else

 

[YorksDMU]

I’m lost for words! Northern need a new MD. And they need to run as full a timetable as they can. Longer trains too so everyone can distance on them properly.

 

[Starmill]

There's some genuinely appalling abuse of ordinary people going on in this thread. Some people here have presumably been travelling regularly throughout the past four months, while almost the entire population of the country haven't.

It's sensible, indeed I would argue totally obvious, to see that this does have a negative psychological impact. How could it not if you're a regular passenger who then doesn't use a train once in months on end?

I don't understand how there's an objection to this point that goes beyond extraordinarily entitled people who haven't suffered from the very real blow being described by George being foolish enough to pretend that the mental needs of almost all ordinary people don't exist.

Nearly the entire population in this country follows government advice. Between mid March and today that advice was not to use public transport. Therefore, almost the whole country didn't use any public transport in that time. What on earth is all the sneering at George about for stating that rather obvious fact?

 

[yorksrob]

There's some genuinely appalling abuse of ordinary people going on in this thread. Some people here have presumably been travelling regularly throughout the past four months, while almost the entire population of the country haven't.

It's sensible, indeed I would argue totally obvious, to see that this does have a negative psychological impact. How could it not if you're a regular passenger who then doesn't use a train once in months on end?

I don't understand how there's an objection to this point that goes beyond extraordinarily entitled people who haven't suffered from the very real blow being described by George being foolish enough to pretend that the mental needs of almost all ordinary people don't exist.

Nearly the entire population in this country follows government advice. Between mid March and today that advice was not to use public transport. Therefore, almost the whole country didn't use any public transport in that time. What on earth is all the sneering at George about for stating that rather obvious fact?

I don't think I disagree with his point.

It just seems to me that it rings a bit hollow, coming from a company that doesn't seem to be attempting to run a proper service.

I've been travelling a fair bit since the Government guidance allowed, and whilst timetables have been understandably reduced, in most TOC areas I haven't had a problem getting around. The exception is Northern, whose temporary timetables on some routes are so poorly designed as to render those areas inaccessible. And this is after the general lockdown has been relaxed to help the economy to recover.

Yes, he is undoubtedly correct that there are long term issues with peoples willingness to use the train, but it seems to me to be a case of "try putting your own house in order first".

 

[yorkie]

Northern are run by the government. I’d imagine any advice they have given is coming directly from the DfT.

If that was true, why did Northern say "essential travel only" long after some TOCs ceased saying this?

Also, Northern have denied it.

FOI050 070720.pdf

www.whatdotheyknow.com

The question was:

Have Northern consulted DfT regarding these messages? Please detail all relevant
correspondence between yourself and DfT regarding what journeys can be made on Northern during
the current period

The answer appears to be "No"; and "There was no correspondence"; their answer in full is quoted below:

Northern are not required to consult with the Department for Transport on specific messages to
customers.

Due to social distancing, as a result of the coronavirus, there have been severe capacity restrictions on
the Northern network. As Northern is unable to offer seat reservations, one of the ways in which we
managed the number of customers using our services was to ask people to only travel if their journey
was absolutely necessary and no alternative options were available. We strongly encouraged
customers to consider whether journeys were essential, but did not refuse travel on this basis.

Following government announcements on the easing of restrictions from 4th July, along with changes
to our timetable on 6th July, Northern has shifted the emphasis of its messaging away from ‘Essential
Travel Only’ and towards ‘travel safe’ messaging. This includes encouraging customers to follow the
latest government advice and to take steps to keep themselves and others safe while using our trains.

I am not defending Northern. I maintain my view that the TOCS were/are interpreting/following DfT advice.
It is possibly the case, as with everything related to C-19, that the ‘internal’ advice is different to the public advice and the TOCs are left on their own to deal with it.
Look at the public comments from Johnson and what follows later.......

Northern were asked for a copy of any relevant correspondence and their answer was they are not required to consult the DfT.

Therefore, unless Northern are lying in their answer to an FOI request (which is unlikely), then the publicly visible advice is what Northern should have gone with.

Many people brought the guidelines to Northern's attention but they refused to change it until recently. I believe they officially dropped "essential travel only" on Monday 6th July, though as others have observed, there appears to be a lengthy delay in removing the outdated signage, automated announcements etc.

Since then, they've still been actively deterring people, albeit not as strongly as before.

I assume they will cease deterring people altogether from now onwards.

The behaviour of Northern contrasts sharply with LNER, despite LNER being run in a similar manner to Northern.

Of course the Government are ultimately to blame for the fiasco, but Northern didn't just go along with Government guidance, they went well beyond it, and it was entirely their decision to do so.

 

[tbtc]

This feels like a lot of people who dislike someone are finding any excuse to stick the boot in, rather than actually assess what he's saying. Play the ball, not the man, eh?

Like it or not, the railway can't accommodate the passenger numbers that it used to (given social distancing etc) and even if there were no problems with the "supply" of train seats, there's going to be a large problem with "demand" (for train seats), given that a lot of people are going to feel uncomfortable stepping onto a train (or into a pub or shopping mall or lift or...).

That causes a serious medium/long term problem for trains - a lot of people used to daily commuting are now out of the habit - even if we assume that they keep their job (not guaranteed) and even if we assume that those who keep their jobs will still be working in town/city centre offices (not guaranteed, given the large number of people who have found out that they can do their jobs at home) - even if we assume all of that, there's going to be a psychological hurdle for a lot of people before they'll feel comfortable getting onto public transport again - being in close contact with a lot of strangers, using communal things like hand rails/ buttons etc.

So even if the same number of people are trying to get to a city centre office for 09:00 each morning, this crisis means that there's going to be a lot of former passengers reluctant to go back to buses/trains.

I think that I'd rather have someone in charge of a TOC who understands the realities of passenger demands (and what hurdles need to be overcome to attract people back to public transport, away from the perceived "safety" of their own cars)... but I think that a lot of people on here would prefer him to be in denial about the large problems ahead of him, pretend that everything will be tickety-boo.

I'd rather read an interview with a realist about the difficulties he faces than the usual bland PR-puff piece where they gloss over all difficulties and suggest that there's a bright future etc etc.

(of course, if we had a nationalised railway, I guess it'd be run along the lines of what Northern have been doing for the past few months)

 

[yorksrob]

This feels like a lot of people who dislike someone are finding any excuse to stick the boot in, rather than actually assess what he's saying. Play the ball, not the man, eh?

Like it or not, the railway can't accommodate the passenger numbers that it used to (given social distancing etc) and even if there were no problems with the "supply" of train seats, there's going to be a large problem with "demand" (for train seats), given that a lot of people are going to feel uncomfortable stepping onto a train (or into a pub or shopping mall or lift or...).

That causes a serious medium/long term problem for trains - a lot of people used to daily commuting are now out of the habit - even if we assume that they keep their job (not guaranteed) and even if we assume that those who keep their jobs will still be working in town/city centre offices (not guaranteed, given the large number of people who have found out that they can do their jobs at home) - even if we assume all of that, there's going to be a psychological hurdle for a lot of people before they'll feel comfortable getting onto public transport again - being in close contact with a lot of strangers, using communal things like hand rails/ buttons etc.

So even if the same number of people are trying to get to a city centre office for 09:00 each morning, this crisis means that there's going to be a lot of former passengers reluctant to go back to buses/trains.

I think that I'd rather have someone in charge of a TOC who understands the realities of passenger demands (and what hurdles need to be overcome to attract people back to public transport, away from the perceived "safety" of their own cars)... but I think that a lot of people on here would prefer him to be in denial about the large problems ahead of him, pretend that everything will be tickety-boo.

I'd rather read an interview with a realist about the difficulties he faces than the usual bland PR-puff piece where they gloss over all difficulties and suggest that there's a bright future etc etc.

(of course, if we had a nationalised railway, I guess it'd be run along the lines of what Northern have been doing for the past few months)

I'm sure that TPE would consider themselves as "realists", yet somehow they seem to have managed to not leave their main service areas without a train service for large parts of the day.