Do restrictions apply on the use of public transport in Wales? Are leisure journeys allowed or not?

[Dai Corner]

They have to abide by English laws, certainly, and they do (e.g. regarding face coverings being compulsory).

But no matter where a TFW Rail train is, the Welsh Government presumably is calling the shots given they are paying for the whole operation so if they want TFW to do everything they can to force people off their trains in England they probably have to do so.

I do think it's a rather grey ares what the situation is regarding guidance, either in this case or overall.

E.g. when the Prime Minister of the UK talks about laws which don't apply in Wales, no matter what he says the Welsh law applies in Wales.
But if he says "I want everyone back at work now" and it's just guidance, it's not so clear to me that the First Minister saying "But I want you to stay at home" over-rides that, unless they pass a law enforcing it.

"Ladies and gentlemen we are now arriving at Lydney. Unless you are a key worker or your journey is essential you must leave the train here. If you are staying with us to Chepstow, Severn Tunnel Junctions, Newport or Cardiff Central, please do not remove your face covering until we have crossed the River Wye and are in Wales. Thank you for travelling with Transport for Wales today."

 

[AdamWW]

"Ladies and gentlemen we are now arriving at Lydney. Unless you are a key worker or your journey is essential you must leave the train here. If you are staying with us to Chepstow, Severn Tunnel Junctions, Newport or Cardiff Central, please do not remove your face covering until we have crossed the River Wye and are in Wales. Thank you for travelling with Transport for Wales today."

To be fair they seem to have dropped the "Key worker and essential journeys only" message from departure boards, and in my few rail journeys recently I haven't heard any on board announcements to that effect either, apart from a "We welcome our key workers" announcement which perhaps has the implication that anyone else is not welcome.

 

[Huntergreed]

Interestingly, it seems like Wales in particular are emphasising “key workers only” rather than “essential only”. If I had to make an essential trip in Wales, would I not be permitted to do it via train because I’m not a key worker?

 

[AdamWW]

Interestingly, it seems like Wales in particular are emphasising “key workers only” rather than “essential only”. If I had to make an essential trip in Wales, would I not be permitted to do it via train because I’m not a key worker?

The message has generally been key workers and essential travel only (which if taken too literally means that if you're a "key worker" you can use the train to go to the beach on a day off...)

The government guidance which TFW Rail use as justification for their messaging actually gives a list of the only reasons anyone should be on public transport:

• to get to and from work, if you cannot work from home
• to get essential food or medical supplies
• to support someone who is vulnerable, if no-one else can do so
• for daily exercise

You will note that there is no mention of key workers (which I think only have a specific meaning in terms of who got to send their children to school for childcare once they closed) or that if going to work the work itself has to be "essential", and that getting the train for daily exercise is permitted(!)

 

[trainophile]

It's a pity Boris's address the other day only dwelt very briefly on the relaxation of rail travel, after all he is the PM of the whole UK, whatever line the Welsh govt try to take.

Has anyone actually been refused travel on TfW?

 

[Huntergreed]

It's a pity Boris's address the other day only dwelt very briefly on the relaxation of rail travel, after all he is the PM of the whole UK, whatever line the Welsh govt try to take.

Has anyone actually been refused travel on TfW?

Not sure what it’s like in Wales, but in Scotland we are essentially told to ignore Boris and that his advice doesn’t apply here (and she makes it clear she doesn’t really want us going south of the border too!)

 

[AdamWW]

Not sure what it’s like in Wales, but in Scotland we are essentially told to ignore Boris and that his advice doesn’t apply here (and she makes it clear she doesn’t really want us going south of the border too!)

Given that Wales and Scotland can make things illegal in their country even though there is no national law (e.g. at present it being generally illegal to enter any building in Wales without a permitted reason), it would seem a bit daft if they weren't allowed to issue contradictory guidance. But I suspect there is no established view in such circumstances.

Has anyone actually been refused travel on TfW?

If they have I don't think it's widespread. But they are certainly issuing threats to do so, including the pompous ("Your travel status will be subject to live and ongoing review....you may be denied travel until capacity drops (sic)").

(I don't think they actually mean until capacity drops.)

 

[Cardiff123]

It's a pity Boris's address the other day only dwelt very briefly on the relaxation of rail travel, after all he is the PM of the whole UK, whatever line the Welsh govt try to take.

Has anyone actually been refused travel on TfW?

Whatever Boris Johnson says about Coronavirus rules doesn't apply in Wales.
The Welsh Govt make the laws and rules regarding Coronavirus in Wales.

This is why Boris Johnson hates devolution so much.

 

[carlberry]

It's a pity Boris's address the other day only dwelt very briefly on the relaxation of rail travel, after all he is the PM of the whole UK, whatever line the Welsh govt try to take.

Has anyone actually been refused travel on TfW?

Public health is devolved so, in this case, he's only the prime minister of England. However this dosent fit in with his ego so he rarely points out the difference. Of course the devolved Government don't help by appearing to deliberately come up with different rules for the same thing just because they can (Things like number of people from different households that can meet). Because TfW is, basically, a part of government it has to follow the party line even if the effect is now that people who rely on public transport now appear to be denied the freedoms that others have had restored.

 

[AdamWW]

Public health is devolved so, in this case, he's only the prime minister of England. However this dosent fit in with his ego so he rarely points out the difference. Of course the devolved Government don't help by appearing to deliberately come up with different rules for the same thing just because they can (Things like number of people from different households that can meet). Because TfW is, basically, a part of government it has to follow the party line even if the effect is now that people who rely on public transport now appear to be denied the freedoms that others have had restored.

Maybe I have misunderstood but I thought that TFW Rail (as opposed to TFW) is a private company operating services for TFW and using the TFW Rail branding.

 

[carlberry]

Maybe I have misunderstood but I thought that TFW Rail (as opposed to TFW) is a private company operating services for TFW and using the TFW Rail branding.

I believe it's a much more formal contract so the company just expects to be paid and dosent worry about things like promoting travel etc that the other TOCs usually do, so in effect whatever TfW wants TFW rail does. However I could be wrong.

 

[AdamWW]

I believe it's a much more formal contract so the company just expects to be paid and dosent worry about things like promoting travel etc that the other TOCs usually do, so in effect whatever TfW wants TFW rail does. However I could be wrong.

Whatever the situation pre-Covid, isn't that how all TOCs are now running (barring Open Access, of course)?

 

[carlberry]

Whatever the situation pre-Covid, isn't that how all TOCs are now running (barring Open Access, of course)?

It is at the moment however I'd assume most of them are looking at the medium term aim of trying to get passengers back (however Northern Rail possibly had already given up!) and how they can match the laws or government guidelines with their longer term survival.

 

[PHILIPE]

With reference to Post #117 re Barry Island yesterday similar today with additional clause

Where opening windows are fitted to trains, these must be kept open at all times (regardless of temperature and draughts) to ensure Covid-19 aerosol contamination is minimised.

 

[Parallel]

With reference to Post #117 re Barry Island yesterday similar today with additional clause

Interesting... Surely more breeze would encourage droplets to blow into other people?

Also saw this:



So the train is short formed then they effectively blame passengers for overcrowding. Marvellous!


In situations like this, could they not run a 6 coach train from Barry Island to Cardiff, stopping at the platforms that can handle 6 carriages, then detach a unit before continuing up to the Valleys. Surely they have the stock available at the moment?

 

[AdamWW]

Interesting... Surely more breeze would encourage droplets to blow into other people?

Also saw this:

View attachment 81050

So the train is short formed then they effectively blame passengers for overcrowding. Marvellous!


In situations like this, could they not run a 6 coach train from Barry Island to Cardiff, stopping at the platforms that can handle 6 carriages, then detach a unit before continuing up to the Valleys. Surely they have the stock available at the moment?

Looks as if they were planning on adding another unit, presumably as soon as they could.

As for increasing ventilation - if increasing air movement really does make things worse, we've really got it wrong about outdoor contact being much less risk than indoors.

I'm sure I am being unfair here, but it comes across as if overloading on the Barry services on a sunny non school day is coming as a fresh surprise each time it happens.

 

[Parallel]

Looks as if they were planning on adding another unit, presumably as soon as they could.

As for increasing ventilation - if increasing air movement really does make things worse, we've really got it wrong about outdoor contact being much less risk than indoors.

I’m no rail professional, surely the capacity needed most between Cardiff-Barry Island, not Cardiff - Pontypridd, it will take at least an extra hour for that train to work its way back down to Barry again!

No, the risk outside is probably lower because people are more spread out. The thing is passengers aren’t outside, they’re in a train. Surely opening all windows in a moving vehicle will create a wind tunnel, which would be much easier to blow down the carriages! Just don’t understand what the foundation is for having windows open to avoid ‘Covid aerosol contamination’

 

[AdamWW]

I’m no rail professional, surely the capacity needed most between Cardiff-Barry Island, not Cardiff - Pontypridd, it will take at least an extra hour for that train to work it’s way back down to Barry again!

No, the risk outside is probably lower because people are more spread out. The thing is passengers aren’t outside, they’re in a train. Surely opening all windows in a moving vehicle will create a wind tunnel, which would be much easier to blow down the carriages! Just don’t understand where the foundation is that having windows open to avoid ‘Covid aerosol contamination’

The accepted wisdom is that the greater the air movement, the more quickly droplets in the air with virus particles clinging to them get dissipated. That's why the various UK governments have been a lot more relaxed about people meeting outdoors rather than indoors, not because it's easier to get 2 m apart in a garden than in a house.

As for when they put the extra unit on, I'm no rail professional either so my default view is that when something is done that doesn't seem to make sense, it's probably because there's a good reason for it that I'm not aware of. (Having said that, when I've asked staff on the ground about such things, it's a bit disappointing how often their view has been that things could have been done better).

 

[Cardiff123]

If travel to and from Barry Island is such a problem now we're into the 'official' school holidays, maybe Barry Island station should be closed until September. Not ideal but it would be the ultimate deterrent to travelling there. Apparently alcohol consumption (eg people boarding trains already drunk) is also causing problems with behaviour on board.

The amount of compliance there is with compulsory face coverings on board from Monday will be interesting.

 

[Bikeman78]

Until the rule mandating face masks/coverings on public transport comes into force in Wales on Monday 27th July, TfW Rail have no choice but to not encourge people to use their services, as without people wearing masks/coverings on board, everyone must stay two metres apart. As we've seen, this means seating capacity is drastically reduced and no one is allowed to stand.
Once the face masks/covering rule comes in, the 2m distance rule on public transport in Wales will be allowed to be relaxed, so on board capacity will be increased. So I expect we'll see a change in messaging from TfW from 27th July.

Plenty of Welsh trains already have far more than the 28 people permitted per two car unit. Granted it's a small percentage but it is growing. Most train crew just let them get on with it.

 

[anthony263]

Thought platforms between cardiff snd barry were extended to accommodate 6 carriage trains

 

[Bikeman78]

As I keep saying, all TfW are doing is following orders given to them by Welsh Govt. I hope and expect things to change next week when wearing face coverings/masks on public transport in Wales becomes compulsory. This should've happened sooner, but we are where we are.

The joke is that most trains are still nearly empty. I went for a trip in the valleys a couple of weeks back. On one run I had a whole Pacer to myself. Yesterday I went for a trip to London and spent the day trundling around. 10 car IET, approx 10 people in the rear unit at Paddington. In the "evening peak" both Liverpool Street and Paddington had maybe 30-40 people milling about. The busiest train I travelled in had around 20 people in my carriage. I was pleased to see that LO trains had a decent load of 10-15 per carriage even off peak.

 

[Bikeman78]

"Ladies and gentlemen we are now arriving at Lydney. Unless you are a key worker or your journey is essential you must leave the train here. If you are staying with us to Chepstow, Severn Tunnel Junctions, Newport or Cardiff Central, please do not remove your face covering until we have crossed the River Wye and are in Wales. Thank you for travelling with Transport for Wales today."

My face mask came off in the Severn tunnel yesterday!

 

[Cardiff123]

Thought platforms between cardiff snd barry were extended to accommodate 6 carriage trains

That's Penarth to Rhymney and Cardiff to Treherbert. Cardiff to Barry Island and the VoG and take the length of 2 x 150s maximum

 

[AdamWW]

The joke is that most trains are still nearly empty. I went for a trip in the valleys a couple of weeks back. On one run I had a whole Pacer to myself. Yesterday I went for a trip to London and spent the day trundling around. 10 car IET, approx 10 people in the rear unit at Paddington. In the "evening peak" both Liverpool Street and Paddington had maybe 30-40 people milling about. The busiest train I travelled in had around 20 people in my carriage. I was pleased to see that LO trains had a decent load of 10-15 per carriage even off peak.

This is what is really bugging me.

There is capacity for leisure travel, even if not for everyone who wants to go to Barry Island on a sunny day.

But I have seen absolutely nothing to indicate that anybody is even trying to think of anything better than just telling everyone to stay away. It's the easy option, but I'm not convinced it's the right one.

If travel to and from Barry Island is such a problem now we're into the 'official' school holidays, maybe Barry Island station should be closed until September. Not ideal but it would be the ultimate deterrent to travelling there. Apparently alcohol consumption (eg people boarding trains already drunk) is also causing problems with behaviour on board.

Well, at least for people unprepared to walk from Barry Town - not that far and you can do it across the beach if the tide is out.

Anyway it would certainly help in getting across the Welsh Government view that families without cars should stay at home indefinitely (all Summer?) and leave days out for people with cars. After all if there's reduced capacity at tourist attractions you don't need everyone to be able to go, do you?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

My face mask came off in the Severn tunnel yesterday!

But are you sure that you took it off at the right point? There's no GPS reception to be sure

 

[AdamWW]

You have to look for the lights indicating the change of gradient.

 

[Bikeman78]

You have to look for the lights indicating the change of gradient.

Beat me to it! It was much easier to tell on diesel trains because the engines revved up at the mid point.

 

[Cardiff123]

Well, at least for people unprepared to walk from Barry Town - not that far and you can do it across the beach if the tide is out.

Anyway it would certainly help in getting across the Welsh Government view that families without cars should stay at home indefinitely (all Summer?) and leave days out for people with cars. After all if there's reduced capacity at tourist attractions you don't need everyone to be able to go, do you?

I don't agree with the policy at all. I'm one of the people affected by it as I don't drive. But I can understand where TfW are coming from. The pandemic isn't over, and all it needs is one infected person on a packed train to Barry Island with some people being rowdy and drunk, for several of people to become inadvertently infected.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't agree with the policy at all. I'm one of the people affected by it as I don't drive. But I can understand where TfW are coming from. The pandemic isn't over, and all it needs is one infected person on a packed train to Barry Island with some people being rowdy and drunk, for several of people to become inadvertently infected.

And TfW does have a unit shortage like no other TOC (though Northern isn't far off, with the 195s and 331s in place it's not as bad). With the full timetable pre-COVID, they basically only had enough units to put one single or 2-car unit (or the very odd 3 plus the LHCS) on each diagram (and actually not quite enough for that). That's absolute bare minimum, and isn't enough to have everyone coming back in droves just yet.

It's dead easy to sort out distancing if you're a South East commuter operation with no commuters, and can chuck out 240m 12-car EMU formations for about 12 people, or if you're Avanti and can do the same with 250+ metre Pendolinos. TfW are nowhere near to having this privilege.