Was the Pendolino worth it?

[Bald Rick]

Back on subject to the original question- the answer is yes.
I've had 20+ years of the 'West Coast' MK3's, yes I missed them.
I was a bit apprehensive of the Pendolino, but my worries were soon gone.
I travelled a few years back on a GA set of MK3's- no happy memories returning- We sat in standard on the way back.
When I say sat, I meant knelt on the seats because of the length of my legs - in fact I stood up for most of the journey. Same in 1st, no leg room and low seat height.
So to me the Pendolino have been a god send.

You have just reminded me...

I commuted on the WCML for 4 years with Virgin pre-Pendolino (just), and have used the WCML roughly once a month since the Pendolinos arrived.

The Pendolinos are unquestionably more comfortable - seats, ride, better facilities. AND much quicker and much more frequent.

Two other things. I’ve never had to stand on a Pendolino, unlike the old days where I was standing almost every Friday night and more than a few other evenings and mornings. And I’ve never been on one with failed aircon - in summer with the old stock it was close to an even bet that at least one coach would be out.

I will say I was worried about motion sickness before I used one, as I get sea sick on just about anything larger than a dinghy, but never had a problem.

What’s not to like?

 

[Trackman]

You have just reminded me...

Two other things. I’ve never had to stand on a Pendolino, unlike the old days where I was standing almost every Friday night and more than a few other evenings and mornings.

Happy days, last train out of Piccadilly to Euston on a Friday stood in the vestibule with 5 other people, with 4 tins of beer and a sandwich in my bag!
Well, not that happy days - but it was the norm. At least I could look out of the window when stopped at a red (praying for green or the sequence thereto).

 

[Noddy]

I have timed an IET from 0 to 100mph in around 110 seconds. I have timed Pendolinos doing 0 to 100mph in 140 seconds. So IET can be 30 seconds quicker reaching the 'ton'. Both trains reach the 'ton' in under three miles..but what is surprising here is that the Pendolino is less than 15 seconds behind after the first 5 miles.
In the context of this discussion - every acceleration to 125mph from a station stop with an IET could gain 15 secs over a Pendolino. But for now IETs and 397s are limited to 110mph on the WCML and that means that after 10 miles, the Pendolino is back on level pegging and will start edging away at the rate if.approximately 1 min per 20 miles of 125 vs 110mph running.
We wait to see just how much of the WCMLs 110mph speed limits will bw raised to 125mph without tilt.

Im going to caveat first by saying I’m very sceptical that individual timed runs tell us very little about the day to day performance characteristics. But...

... as you’ve identified your timing as an ‘IET’ I’m going to assume this was a GWR 800? If I’ve interpreted this correctly, it will have been a bi-mode lugging around extra diesel engines and associated paraphernalia. So the timing is only really comparable to a 221 as that is class the bi-mode ones will be replacing. And even that assumes the WC bi-modes will be set-up the same as the GWR ones. We already know that the electric ones will have to be set-up differently as they will have 7 carriages as opposed to 5 or 9.

 

[edwin_m]

Im going to caveat first by saying I’m very sceptical that individual timed runs tell us very little about the day to day performance characteristics. But...

... as you’ve identified your timing as an ‘IET’ I’m going to assume this was a GWR 800? If I’ve interpreted this correctly, it will have been a bi-mode lugging around extra diesel engines and associated paraphernalia. So the timing is only really comparable to a 221 as that is class the bi-mode ones will be replacing. And even that assumes the WC bi-modes will be set-up the same as the GWR ones. We already know that the electric ones will have to be set-up differently as they will have 7 carriages as opposed to 5 or 9.

Quite possible their WCML units will have more motor coaches and this a better power:weight ratio than previous builds. For example a 7-car could be the 9-car 800 without the two unpowered intermediate coaches, so all the intermediates would be motored with transformers in both end cars to supply enough power.

 

[hexagon789]

I have timed an IET from 0 to 100mph in around 110 seconds. I have timed Pendolinos doing 0 to 100mph in 140 seconds. So IET can be 30 seconds quicker reaching the 'ton'. Both trains reach the 'ton' in under three miles..but what is surprising here is that the Pendolino is less than 15 seconds behind after the first 5 miles.
In the context of this discussion - every acceleration to 125mph from a station stop with an IET could gain 15 secs over a Pendolino. But for now IETs and 397s are limited to 110mph on the WCML and that means that after 10 miles, the Pendolino is back on level pegging and will start edging away at the rate if.approximately 1 min per 20 miles of 125 vs 110mph running.
We wait to see just how much of the WCMLs 110mph speed limits will bw raised to 125mph without tilt.

I thought they were more evenly matched than suggested.

 

[hexagon789]

Not much, will a be a fair bit of 115-120 from what Ive heard, but level pegging with EPS is not easy.

South of Preston for the 80x, I take it? Hadn't realised they were actively pursuing higher non-tilt speeds on the southern WCML.

Anything further on the stuff north of Preston that was supposed to be getting done for the 397s?

 

[Railperf]

Im going to caveat first by saying I’m very sceptical that individual timed runs tell us very little about the day to day performance characteristics. But...

... as you’ve identified your timing as an ‘IET’ I’m going to assume this was a GWR 800? If I’ve interpreted this correctly, it will have been a bi-mode lugging around extra diesel engines and associated paraphernalia. So the timing is only really comparable to a 221 as that is class the bi-mode ones will be replacing. And even that assumes the WC bi-modes will be set-up the same as the GWR ones. We already know that the electric ones will have to be set-up differently as they will have 7 carriages as opposed to 5 or 9.

I never base my timings on a single timed run. My data is usually based on a cluster of runs - which gives me a reliable dataset to work with.
The timing data I have for the East Coast Class 801s (electric only) suggests the acceleration rate is fractionally faster than the bi-modes, but not significantly enough for timetable planners to start shaving journey times down.
It does appear that the acceleration rates are managed by onboard traction software. Probably an unrestricted Class 801 could accelerate even faster than we are recording - but as with the original IET spec - the acceleration rate was specified by the DFT, and it is most likely the 801's are artificially pegged back to match the bi-modes for power consumption reasons.
if we take the TPE 397's in comparison, which seem to be slightly faster than IET's - the 0-60 and 0-100mph acceleration isn't significantly faster enough than an IET or a Pendolino for that matter to be shaving much time off real journey times.

 

[Railperf]

I thought they were more evenly matched than suggested.

Of course, i must add we see a variety of driving styles. There are many drivers who apply power a lot more gently - rather than applying full power from the start. I'm hearing that Class 331s - for example - can be pretty brutal applying power - hence drivers being far more gentle with them and hence rarely recording very fast 0-60 times. I guess it may also be down to how they are being instructed to drive them.
Conversely - a Norwegian FLIRT driver told me that the state railway and Stadler had tuned down the initial start acceleration because it was so sharp that passengers and train staff were falling over.

 

[hexagon789]

Of course, i must add we see a variety of driving styles. There are many drivers who apply power a lot more gently - rather than applying full power from the start. I'm hearing that Class 331s - for example - can be pretty brutal applying power - hence drivers being far more gentle with them and hence rarely recording very fast 0-60 times. I guess it may also be down to how they are being instructed to drive them.
Conversely - a Norwegian FLIRT driver told me that the state railway and Stadler had tuned down the initial start acceleration because it was so sharp that passengers and train staff were falling over.

I can understand that, Pendolino drivers drive slightly differently - some seem more likely to use full power from the get-go and boost when running late than others for instance.

As for FLIRTs, SBB's are still very sharp - their drivers are quite good at taking power gently to start with but they certainly gave it the beans once up to about 10-15km/h.

If the new order of 80x are able to run at at least 115-120 then the running times should be fairly similar compared to a 390 given the slightly better acceleration but it will be tight I think.

The Pendolino is a hard act to follow in that respect but at least with no need for a 'tilt profile' the new trains won't suffer from the slightly cramped interior feel of the 390s.

 

[Railperf]

Im going to caveat first by saying I’m very sceptical that individual timed runs tell us very little about the day to day performance characteristics. But...

... as you’ve identified your timing as an ‘IET’ I’m going to assume this was a GWR 800? If I’ve interpreted this correctly, it will have been a bi-mode lugging around extra diesel engines and associated paraphernalia. So the timing is only really comparable to a 221 as that is class the bi-mode ones will be replacing. And even that assumes the WC bi-modes will be set-up the same as the GWR ones. We already know that the electric ones will have to be set-up differently as they will have 7 carriages as opposed to 5 or 9.

You are also assuming each train will run perfectly from start to finish. But TSR's - traffic - rail conditions - driver confidence can all make a bigger difference.
I was comparing a Class 350 and 397 run from Lockerbie to Carstairs. The 397 run was 15 seconds quicker to Milepost 33 than the 350 due to its superior acceleration, but a combination of all the above factors meant that by Milepost 65, the 397 run was 20 seconds behind!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

You are also assuming each train will run perfectly from start to finish. But TSR's - traffic - rail conditions - driver confidence can all make a bigger difference.
I was comparing a Class 350 and 397 run from Lockerbie to Carstairs. The 397 run was 15 seconds quicker to Milepost 33 than the 350 due to its superior acceleration, but a combination of all the above factors meant that by Milepost 65, the 397 run was 20 seconds behind!

I think the CAF 331/397 and Stadler Flirts all have the same basic traction package, from TSA (Traktionssysteme Austria) - which used to be a part of ABB.
They also supply the generator for the Hitachi 80x, and the traction package for Metrolink's M5000 trams.
There's al list showing which trains they power in their PR:

References of our successful projects ǀ TSA

Find out which vehicles already operate with our traction drives ►Check out our references now

www.tsa.at

 

[Noddy]

You are also assuming each train will run perfectly from start to finish. But TSR's - traffic - rail conditions - driver confidence can all make a bigger difference.
I was comparing a Class 350 and 397 run from Lockerbie to Carstairs. The 397 run was 15 seconds quicker to Milepost 33 than the 350 due to its superior acceleration, but a combination of all the above factors meant that by Milepost 65, the 397 run was 20 seconds behind!

No I am assuming the exact opposite although I appreciate that my opening sentence is confusing, and should say that I don’t believe individual timed runs give meaningful data about the day to day performance characteristics. I also very much doubt the 801s are being pushed at all on the EC as the timings will be for HSTs and 91s.

And again here you’ve gone on here to talk about what appear to be two individual timed runs, despite in post 217 saying you never based your timings on a single run? As you say there are so many factors potentially at play, from drivers to weather to loading and in the case of an 800/802 how much diesel is on board. Never mind that it’s pretty clear that much of the performance is controlled by software these days.

 

[Noddy]

Deleted

 

[Railperf]

No I am assuming the exact opposite although I appreciate that my opening sentence is confusing, and should say that I don’t believe individual timed runs give meaningful data about the day to day performance characteristics. I also very much doubt the 801s are being pushed at all on the EC as the timings will be for HSTs and 91s.

And again here you’ve gone on here to talk about what appear to be two individual timed runs, despite in post 217 saying you never based your timings on a single run? As you say there are so many factors potentially at play, from drivers to weather to loading and in the case of an 800/802 how much diesel is on board. Never mind that it’s pretty clear that much of the performance is controlled by software these days.

The point is this - on every route there is a variety of traction used with differing performance characteristics. The timetable planners like to create paths that maximise the route capacity. Therefore, where traction has the same top speed, but differing acceleration characteristics, the timings seem to set on the traction with the lower performance.
On the WCML, Voyagers get assigned slightly slower paths than Pendolino's because at certain locations the EPS speeds allowed are 5 or 10mph lower than Pendolini.

Until 125mph is allowed for non-tilt trains, i don't see a Class 80X IET being assigned any faster point to point timings than a Class 350 or Class 397 - and that helps to maintain a consistent pattern of available paths for the timetable planners to play with. The actual performance 'out of the box' will be determined by what the TOC, DfT and NR have all agreed to maintain a proposed timetable.

Surveying the WCML from London to Crewe, and counting whole miles - approx 145 of the 158 route miles are passed for EPS speeds of a minimum 5mph over the non-tilt speeds. In fact the average over those 145miles is 14.9mph - equating to almost 10 minutes for a non-stop run.
For an IET to match the Pendolino time, you'd need both trains to be stopping at all the major stations - Watford, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton, Stafford - for the amount of route mileage run at 125mph to be reduced for the Pendolino - and its tardier acceleration to be a disadvantage.

I'm not the greatest mathematician in the world - so i make that 15 secs per stop on average time gained by the IET. But there would still be a lot of time to make up. I've not seen any data that suggests enough route miles will be raised to 125mph non-EPS to make up that difference.

 

[The Planner]

The point is this - on every route there is a variety of traction used with differing performance characteristics. The timetable planners like to create paths that maximise the route capacity. Therefore, where traction has the same top speed, but differing acceleration characteristics, the timings seem to set on the traction with the lower performance.
On the WCML, Voyagers get assigned slightly slower paths than Pendolino's because at certain locations the EPS speeds allowed are 5 or 10mph lower than Pendolini.

Which is the sensible thing to do, and TOCs won't tend to agree to switch to a new set of SRTs until all the traction is in play and diagrammed. It can be a hard task occasionally to get them to do it at all!

Until 125mph is allowed for non-tilt trains, i don't see a Class 80X IET being assigned any faster point to point timings than a Class 350 or Class 397 - and that helps to maintain a consistent pattern of available paths for the timetable planners to play with. The actual performance 'out of the box' will be determined by what the TOC, DfT and NR have all agreed to maintain a proposed timetable.

The Avanti 805/7 will be interesting, as 350 SRTs might do the job initially and any savings made will eaten up at extended stops.

I'm not the greatest mathematician in the world - so i make that 15 secs per stop on average time gained by the IET. But there would still be a lot of time to make up. I've not seen any data that suggests enough route miles will be raised to 125mph non-EPS to make up that difference.

You assume the timetable stays the same, I very much doubt it will and it will be tweaked as a minimum and probably re-cast to an extent for Dec 22.

 

[edwin_m]

The point is this - on every route there is a variety of traction used with differing performance characteristics. The timetable planners like to create paths that maximise the route capacity. Therefore, where traction has the same top speed, but differing acceleration characteristics, the timings seem to set on the traction with the lower performance.
On the WCML, Voyagers get assigned slightly slower paths than Pendolino's because at certain locations the EPS speeds allowed are 5 or 10mph lower than Pendolini.

Until 125mph is allowed for non-tilt trains, i don't see a Class 80X IET being assigned any faster point to point timings than a Class 350 or Class 397 - and that helps to maintain a consistent pattern of available paths for the timetable planners to play with. The actual performance 'out of the box' will be determined by what the TOC, DfT and NR have all agreed to maintain a proposed timetable.

Surveying the WCML from London to Crewe, and counting whole miles - approx 145 of the 158 route miles are passed for EPS speeds of a minimum 5mph over the non-tilt speeds. In fact the average over those 145miles is 14.9mph - equating to almost 10 minutes for a non-stop run.
For an IET to match the Pendolino time, you'd need both trains to be stopping at all the major stations - Watford, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton, Stafford - for the amount of route mileage run at 125mph to be reduced for the Pendolino - and its tardier acceleration to be a disadvantage.

I'm not the greatest mathematician in the world - so i make that 15 secs per stop on average time gained by the IET. But there would still be a lot of time to make up. I've not seen any data that suggests enough route miles will be raised to 125mph non-EPS to make up that difference.

I imagine someone is looking at higher speeds for non-tilt trains, as suggested further upthread, which would negate your assumptions. Assuming a significant amount of mileage can be upgraded in this way, it would make 80x significantly faster than 350s. If there are still 350 paths on the fast line then running an 80x after a Pendlino and before a 350 would involve very little capacity penalty. I believe Avanti intends to keep the 80x to the southern half of the WCML so 397s won't use any of the same track, but the same logic would apply to them on the northern part of the route.

 

[gsnedders]

I imagine someone is looking at higher speeds for non-tilt trains, as suggested further upthread, which would negate your assumptions. Assuming a significant amount of mileage can be upgraded in this way, it would make 80x significantly faster than 350s. If there are still 350 paths on the fast line then running an 80x after a Pendlino and before a 350 would involve very little capacity penalty. I believe Avanti intends to keep the 80x to the southern half of the WCML so 397s won't use any of the same track, but the same logic would apply to them on the northern part of the route.

Which also in principle would limit the stock that Glasgow drivers have to sign. Do we expect London drivers to be split into Classic and HS2 in the future? And where does that leave Preston?!

 

[Lloyds siding]

All this talk about acceleration seems academic to me. My experience of Pendolinos is that moving off from a station is very gentle: often the first time I have an inkling that the train has started is when crossing a track joint...they are that smooth. The acceleration can be relentless though; just keeping on accelerating at the same rate to over 100mph.
Are they 'worth it'? They are fast, smooth, pretty reliable (especially considering their busy working lives...I've seen one 'turned round' at Euston in 15 minutes), quiet, reasonably comfortable. They have achieved a high degree of public recognition: as others have said, they are one of the few trains where their appearance and name is familiar to the general public. If worth it means successful by the above parameters..then yes!

 

[Taunton]

I’ve never had to stand on a Pendolino, unlike the old days where I was standing almost every Friday night and more than a few other evenings and mornings.

I will say I was worried about motion sickness before I used one, as I get sea sick on just about anything larger than a dinghy, but never had a problem.

Some may recall an account that I stood last year in the aisle (vestibules full) from Birmingham to Euston, along with about 25 others in one coach alone; at 5pm weekday the previous service, through from Scotland, had come to grief somewhere in the north so it was carrying two trainloads, and at International where I boarded, having already waited over half an hour due to the previous cancellation, it came in already full and standing. I find the whole through routing of the Birmingham shuttle to Scotland seems to give issues more often than it should.

I too never even notice the tilt, which I understand is down to it compensating about 90% of the forces; the old BR APT engineers had gone for 100% and that was what made people feel uneasy when looking out and not feeling anything.

 

[Bald Rick]

Some may recall an account that I stood last year in the aisle (vestibules full) from Birmingham to Euston, along with about 25 others in one coach alone; at 5pm weekday the previous service, through from Scotland, had come to grief somewhere in the north so it was carrying two trainloads, and at International where I boarded, having already waited over half an hour due to the previous cancellation, it came in already full and standing. I find the whole through routing of the Birmingham shuttle to Scotland seems to give issues more often than it should.

Oh no doubt there is standing during disruption. Perhaps I should have qualified my post; I was talking about standing when services where running normally. Almost every week, often more, in pre Pendolino days. Never now. My experience, only - others may have different experience.

 

[route101]

Some may recall an account that I stood last year in the aisle (vestibules full) from Birmingham to Euston, along with about 25 others in one coach alone; at 5pm weekday the previous service, through from Scotland, had come to grief somewhere in the north so it was carrying two trainloads, and at International where I boarded, having already waited over half an hour due to the previous cancellation, it came in already full and standing. I find the whole through routing of the Birmingham shuttle to Scotland seems to give issues more often than it should.

I too never even notice the tilt, which I understand is down to it compensating about 90% of the forces; the old BR APT engineers had gone for 100% and that was what made people feel uneasy when looking out and not feeling anything.

I wonder if its possible for a another service to North and Scotland via Trent Valley. I suppose theres little paths.

 

[edwin_m]

I wonder if its possible for a another service to North and Scotland via Trent Valley. I suppose theres little paths.

Probably also an issue north of Warrington where slow freight on a mostly double-track route uses up a lot of capacity. HS2 proposes 2TPH from London splitting at Carlisle for Edinburgh and Glasgow, so effectively doubles the Glasgow service. I don't know if anyone has yet worked out how to fit them in once they join the WCML.

 

[Noddy]

Probably also an issue north of Warrington where slow freight on a mostly double-track route uses up a lot of capacity. HS2 proposes 2TPH from London splitting at Carlisle for Edinburgh and Glasgow, so effectively doubles the Glasgow service. I don't know if anyone has yet worked out how to fit them in once they join the WCML.

Settle and Carlisle, and Glasgow and South Western.

 

[zn1]

YEP class 390 and her DEMU Sisters were and ARE the right job for the right time..MK3s were becoming three parts shagged, BT10 Bogies becoming more expensive to keep operational, there are only so many times a Bogie frame can be rebuilt before it becomes ready to become a ford fiesta


...the AC & DEMU Units benefitted from the overdue renewals on the WEST COAST, the tilt technology was proven, thanks mainly to British Rail flogging for a Quid i suspect...and letting foreigners perfect it.

Has it helped the Passenger loadings ? YES....every pendo job i got on a couple of years was packed and standing on the UP AND DOWN from MKC

Is Class 390 ready for rolling Block ? YES has been for years - hence on the desk a massive empty panel with a tiny speedo set in to it...

just ramp em up ready for 140 MPH+ operation ,Fit em with TVM or whatever Rolling Block system is to be used and let em loose up and down HS1 and HS2 when its done, they are perfect for the JOB

who would like to see a 390 take on a eurostar or velaro ??

the 390s are what the west coast needed in 1987...the timing was not right....but tilt finallhy came to the UK as an operational commodity

The DEMU tilt squadron wouldnt cope i dont think..125 is their max..

 

[CW2]

YEP class 390 and her DEMU Sisters were and ARE the right job for the right time..MK3s were becoming three parts shagged, BT10 Bogies becoming more expensive to keep operational, there are only so many times a Bogie frame can be rebuilt before it becomes ready to become a ford fiesta


...the AC & DEMU Units benefitted from the overdue renewals on the WEST COAST, the tilt technology was proven, thanks mainly to British Rail flogging for a Quid i suspect...and letting foreigners perfect it.

Has it helped the Passenger loadings ? YES....every pendo job i got on a couple of years was packed and standing on the UP AND DOWN from MKC

Is Class 390 ready for rolling Block ? YES has been for years - hence on the desk a massive empty panel with a tiny speedo set in to it...

just ramp em up ready for 140 MPH+ operation ,Fit em with TVM or whatever Rolling Block system is to be used and let em loose up and down HS1 and HS2 when its done, they are perfect for the JOB

who would like to see a 390 take on a eurostar or velaro ??

the 390s are what the west coast needed in 1987...the timing was not right....but tilt finallhy came to the UK as an operational commodity

The DEMU tilt squadron wouldnt cope i dont think..125 is their max..

The 390 was undoubtedly right for the time when it was introduced, but that was nearly 2 decades ago, and the technology is ripe for replacement. There's no way that a 390 could be "ramped up" to run on HS2 at any sensible line speed. There's no point in running a tilting train on high speed lines designed for conventional (non-tilt) operation. There is a weight penalty of about 5 tonnes per vehicle for tilt.
A Eurostar class 373 set is even older (and slower in acceleration).

 

[Railperf]

The 390 was undoubtedly right for the time when it was introduced, but that was nearly 2 decades ago, and the technology is ripe for replacement. There's no way that a 390 could be "ramped up" to run on HS2 at any sensible line speed. There's no point in running a tilting train on high speed lines designed for conventional (non-tilt) operation. There is a weight penalty of about 5 tonnes per vehicle for tilt.
A Eurostar class 373 set is even older (and slower in acceleration).

In Italy, the 155mph ETR600's and ETR610 'new pendolino' - are running on the 300km/h (186mph) high-speed lines at 250km/h - (155mph) for part of their journeys. IS the Uk Pendolino's 140mph capability just software limited from the basic 155mph design?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

In Italy, the 155mph ETR600's and ETR610 'new pendolino' - are running on the 300km/h (186mph) high-speed lines at 250km/h - (155mph) for part of their journeys. IS the Uk Pendolino's 140mph capability just software limited from the basic 155mph design?

And the Avelia Liberty version runs at 300km/h with tilt, 350km/h without.
Currently being delivered to Amtrak.

 

[Railperf]

And the Avelia Liberty version runs at 300km/h with tilt, 350km/h without.
Currently being delivered to Amtrak.

Yes...looks like a good piece of kit. Mixture of Italo , Pendolino, and TGV

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes...looks like a good piece of kit. Mixture of Italo , Pendolino, and TGV

Though it looks ugly as sin, the body shape of the power car doesn't even match the coaches.

 

[al78]

Though it looks ugly as sin, the body shape of the power car doesn't even match the coaches.

I couldn't give a toss what a train looks like, as long as it can get me to where I want to go quickly, in comfort, and on time.