Cut fares (Transport Focus) and open station facilities (my plea)

[Howardh]

Cut rail fares to counter Covid slump in train travel, watchdog urges

Transport Focus joins unions and campaigners in calling for short and long-term incentives

www.theguardian.com

Rail fares must be cut to entice travellers back on to trains after Covid-19, according to the passenger watchdog, which has urged the UK government to subsidise similar money-saving deals to those for the restaurant sector.
Transport Focus said a radical shake up of the fares system should go beyond a fares freeze to include cut-price deals and flexible season tickets for people who may in future only be commuting part-time.

It seems obvious to me that season tickets HAVE to become flexible as people will probably work from home more often and commute less regularly. And my plea, looking at the majority of stations (yesterday Piccadilly had the whole of the upstairs area closed, Bolton's little cafe still closed) the closed shops and cafe's are a signal that I'm still not wanted. There seemed to be enough passengers milling around Piccadilly to warrant opening everything up again.

I'm hoping that the September return-to-school/work will be the push the industry needs to get things back to (a kind of) normal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe a missed opportunity to have binned off all peak restrictions for the summer?

 

[Howardh]

Maybe a missed opportunity to have binned off all peak restrictions for the summer?

Possibly, but there are numerous signs telling pax not to travel at peak times if they can avoid, so that would eb a counter argument.
I'm finding the cheap advances are easily obtainable, even up to the day before, although I understand TOC's are releasing them bit by bit and only a month in advance. maybe if they could get back to "normal" r/e advances, people might be more inclined to use them especially if there was a no-questions no-quibble full refund to cover anyone who has to quarantine, look after family or is in an area of lockdown and can't travel.

 

[Ianno87]

Cut rail fares to counter Covid slump in train travel, watchdog urges

Transport Focus joins unions and campaigners in calling for short and long-term incentives

www.theguardian.com

It seems obvious to me that season tickets HAVE to become flexible as people will probably work from home more often and commute less regularly. And my plea, looking at the majority of stations (yesterday Piccadilly had the whole of the upstairs area closed, Bolton's little cafe still closed) the closed shops and cafe's are a signal that I'm still not wanted. There seemed to be enough passengers milling around Piccadilly to warrant opening everything up again.

I'm hoping that the September return-to-school/work will be the push the industry needs to get things back to (a kind of) normal.

What is the difference between 'flexible season tickets' and just buying a ticket every day (other than the slight faff of queuing up/ buying on line each time)

1. 'Flexible travel' does not necessarily still travelling in the morning peak; passengers may move to off-peak travel (e-mails in the morning, office in the afternoon), which offers a very significant discount in many cases compared to any form of season ticket.

Example: Cambridge to London £44 Anytime Day return, or £17.75 with a Network Card after 1000. A bit of homeworking first thing, and I can still get office time and travel for a fraction of the price.

2. If employees are required to travel in peak times for a meeting, then the onus could increasingly fall on the employer to cover the additional cost associated with this.


In any case, I would imagine schools returning and offices starting to re-populate gradually will start to push the return of something a little bit more resembling normality from next month.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is the difference between 'flexible season tickets' and just buying a ticket every day (other than the slight faff of queuing up/ buying on line each
time)

I think the idea is price. However, if we could abolish almost-penalty-level Anytime level fares, with the present Off Peak being the standard fare instead (Super Off Peak could remain), that would remove any need for that complexity.

 

[Ianno87]

I think the idea is price. However, if we could abolish almost-penalty-level Anytime level fares, with the present Off Peak being the standard fare instead (Super Off Peak could remain), that would remove any need for that complexity.

I think it will be interesting to see how passengers return; if there is a general shift to off-peak travel (as a consequence of the current pricing), that would lead to a push to equalize the current Peak/off-peak price difference.

 

[greyman42]

They can cut fares all they like but no one wants to make long distance journeys wearing masks. I get free travel but use it very little at the minute due to mask regulations.

 

[Ianno87]

They can cut fares all they like but no one wants to make long distance journeys wearing masks. I get free travel but use it very little at the minute due to mask regulations.

LNER trains have commonly been loaded to their maximum (50%) capacity from my observation, so I'm not sure the assertion that masks are dissuading long distance travel follows.

 

[greyman42]

LNER trains have commonly been loaded to their maximum (50%) capacity from my observation, so I'm not sure the assertion that masks are dissuading long distance travel follows.

I would of thought it would depend on what day and time you travelling regarding the loading. There are still plenty of LNER services that are lightly loaded.

 

[mmh]

What is the difference between 'flexible season tickets' and just buying a ticket every day (other than the slight faff of queuing up/ buying on line each time)

I
Price and, err, flexibility. I travel to work two or three times a week, sometimes more but pretty unpredictably. I sometimes go by bus (I need a bus pass regardless of my work pattern, so that's effectively a zero cost journey), train, a lift, or drive. I don't enjoy driving so I avoid that as much as possible.

A single train fare is £7, a return £7.10. A weekly season is £28.50, so is completely pointless unless it's a week where I know in advance I'm going in for 5 days.

What I buy is an online carnet ticket (I'd buy it on a smart card if I could, not liking being reliant on my phone, but that's not an option), or "Multiflex" as TFW call it. It's £35.50 for 12 single journeys. This takes it below the daily return price by about 15% but importantly to me it more than halves the single price and means I can go and return a different way without paying for a journey I'm not making, and neither do I have to plan anything. If I unexpectedly get a lift home, great.

1. 'Flexible travel' does not necessarily still travelling in the morning peak; passengers may move to off-peak travel (e-mails in the morning, office in the afternoon), which offers a very significant discount in many cases compared to any form of season ticket.

That's quite a London- or city-centric view of commuting. Much of the country doesn't have separate peak fares, and many of those areas are where road is a genuine alternative, unlike city commuting where rail often has a captive market.

I think your example of half day office working is a little far fetched. Most people would call such a pattern "part time," and those with the flexibility to decide where to work are less likely to want to commute for, say, two hours for a half day as two hours for a full day. "What's the point going in now" vs "I may as well go for the full day."

Without this flexible "season ticket" the railway would likely get no money from me. With it, I'm more than happy to pay up front.

 

[Ianno87]

I
Price and, err, flexibility. I travel to work two or three times a week, sometimes more but pretty unpredictably. I sometimes go by bus (I need a bus pass regardless of my work pattern, so that's effectively a zero cost journey), train, a lift, or drive. I don't enjoy driving so I avoid that as much as possible.

A single train fare is £7, a return £7.10. A weekly season is £28.50, so is completely pointless unless it's a week where I know in advance I'm going in for 5 days.

Buying tickets every day is the ultimate "Pay as you go" flexibility. Buy tickets exactly for the days you need and no more.

Most people will accept saving money most weeks, accepting there'll be occasional weeks where it doesn't work out.

That's quite a London- or city-centric view of commuting. Much of the country doesn't have separate peak fares, and many of those areas are where road is a genuine alternative, unlike city commuting where rail often has a captive market.

Indeed it is. And expect the "9 to 5" to return quicker outside of London

I think your example of half day office working is a little far fetched. Most people would call such a pattern "part time," and those with the flexibility to decide where to work are less likely to want to commute for, say, two hours for a half day as two hours for a full day. "What's the point going in now" vs "I may as well go for the full day."

Not part time if you fire up the laptop at 0700 (as I and many others have throughout lockdown), do some e-mails, drop the kids at school then get the train in (writing up a report or something on the journey), and then still have at least 4-5 hours of client meetings or catching up.

Just the couple of days the week you need to.

That's the "New Normal".

I don't get the idea of the day being "over" as early as 10am?

I would of thought it would depend on what day and time you travelling regarding the loading. There are still plenty of LNER services that are lightly loaded.

Both directions on a weekday lunchtime.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

A clear indication / messaging that it is acceptable to travel, for any reason, at a time of my choosing, would be sufficient to get me interested in travelling again.

Re-introduction of a full timetable would the other main hurdle to overcome.

Removal of mask requirements would be a third hurdle overcome but I can live with that requirement so long as I know that I can catch my chosen train with no 'issues' around my unsuitability as the wrong type of passenger for this train.

Cheaper train fares would have minimal benefit, I wouldn't refuse if offered but, on its own, it wouldn't get me travelling.

Re-opening of station toilets is an essential step, re-opening of food outlets (and on train) to get a hot drink will become a personal necessity as autumn and winter approach.

 

[jtuk]

They can cut fares all they like but no one wants to make long distance journeys wearing masks. I get free travel but use it very little at the minute due to mask regulations.

This. Off peak travel is cheap. I'd have made plenty of domestic trips but for this, even though my primary reason for leisure travel is still verboten, as jamming 100 people in a boozer is less dangerous than having 100 people spaced around a football pitch. Well, neither are dangerous, but that's for another thread

 

[Howardh]

On the NRE website you are still hit with coronavirus travel advice. Just lay it off a little now, hey??

Trainline is so much more "friendly" in that respect, "get your summer back on track". Not much left up here, mind!!

 

[yorksrob]

This. Off peak travel is cheap. I'd have made plenty of domestic trips but for this, even though my primary reason for leisure travel is still verboten, as jamming 100 people in a boozer is less dangerous than having 100 people spaced around a football pitch. Well, neither are dangerous, but that's for another thread

I'd dispute that off-peak travel is cheap. Maybe for some short hops, but there are a lot of medium length journeys which are quite pricey.

 

[SuperNova]

They can cut fares all they like but no one wants to make long distance journeys wearing masks. I get free travel but use it very little at the minute due to mask regulations.

I made a 1.5 hour leisure journey yesterday and I see no issue wearing them. Even with a beard. Used to it now. Plus you can still take it off to have a drink.

 

[jtuk]

I'd dispute that off-peak travel is cheap. Maybe for some short hops, but there are a lot of medium length journeys which are quite pricey.

Maybe in and out of London, but if I'm doing that I'm on an advance anyway, I can't think of the last time I looked at an off peak fare and thought it was extortionate outside of oddities like Coventry to Oxford or similar

 

[yorksrob]

Maybe in and out of London, but if I'm doing that I'm on an advance anyway, I can't think of the last time I looked at an off peak fare and thought it was extortionate outside of oddities like Coventry to Oxford or similar

A lot in the TPE area seem to be to me, in particular.

 

[NorthOxonian]

This. Off peak travel is cheap. I'd have made plenty of domestic trips but for this, even though my primary reason for leisure travel is still verboten, as jamming 100 people in a boozer is less dangerous than having 100 people spaced around a football pitch. Well, neither are dangerous, but that's for another thread

Now your main reason for leisure travel looks like it's going to be allowed again pretty soon (thanks to some rather vigorous campaigning by various clubs and quite a few MPs), will you consider returning again?

 

[jtuk]

Now your main reason for leisure travel looks like it's going to be allowed again pretty soon (thanks to some rather vigorous campaigning by various clubs and quite a few MPs), will you consider returning again?

To a football ground? Absolutely, I'd return to a sold out Bramall Lane tomorrow. To rail? Reluctantly, I'll take the small pain of needing to muzzle up for the sake of my mental health and what seeing quasi-normal things again will do for it.

 

[Howardh]

I made a 1.5 hour leisure journey yesterday and I see no issue wearing them. Even with a beard. Used to it now. Plus you can still take it off to have a drink.

I felt guilty yesterday on a 1.5hr journey, sipping wine, I gave up keep lifting the mask up and down so took it off.

To a football ground? Absolutely, I'd return to a sold out Bramall Lane tomorrow. To rail? Reluctantly, I'll take the small pain of needing to muzzle up for the sake of my mental health and what seeing quasi-normal things again will do for it.

My first game might be Didsbury and Chorlton vs Bury AFC in the Vase. Might be fans admitted at this level. Go on the tram

 

[johntea]

I chose to take my mask off on LNER yesterday as I was consuming my beer (Apparently even that isn't allowed these days, but it still is according to their website!) and nobody died, I don't think an empty train carriage has to worry too much about becoming infected somehow

Station facilities are an interesting one as if to many ever open back up, Sainsbury's Local must be loving all the extra custom though!

 

[APT618S]

I made a 1.5 hour leisure journey yesterday and I see no issue wearing them. Even with a beard. Used to it now. Plus you can still take it off to have a drink.

I have done several long distance journeys - 3.5 hrs there and 3.5 hrs back in the same day wearing a mask. You just forget it's there.
Even gone to sleep wearing one.

 

[talldave]

A smart carnet would be nice, a bit like London's contactless weekly billing. If you did just one journey in the week, you'd pay top whack. If you did 5 return trips, you'd get a price equivalent to annual season. With a sliding scale in between.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A smart carnet would be nice, a bit like London's contactless weekly billing. If you did just one journey in the week, you'd pay top whack. If you did 5 return trips, you'd get a price equivalent to annual season. With a sliding scale in between.

Or just charge a reasonable price for a single journey and forget the rest? Keep it simple. Should we really be encouraging more travel by making bulk purchase cheaper?

 

[talldave]

Or just charge a reasonable price for a single journey and forget the rest? Keep it simple. Should we really be encouraging more travel by making bulk purchase cheaper?

Yes, if we want to dissuade someone from buying a car, which becomes more cost effective the more you use it.

There's no reason why travel should not offer quantity discounts like most other suppliers we deal with in life.

However, we could push simplicity further and use the London bus fare model - a flat rate regardless of journey/number of buses.

 

[Ianno87]

There's no reason why travel should not offer quantity discounts like most other suppliers we deal with in life.

Plenty of reasons. A supplier of baked beans, for example, can relatively easily manage supply to meet demand. That is less easy for a rail operator.

Discounted season tickets pretty much incentivise commuters to travel every day on the grounds that "if I've paid for it, I might as well make use of it" - which seems slightly perverse on a capacity constrained system when many office folk have the opportunity to work flexibly and not travel every day.

That compares with car travel where the variable cost elements - fuel and wear/tear, are directly in proportion to use.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, if we want to dissuade someone from buying a car, which becomes more cost effective the more you use it.

A National Railcard is a better way to get an equivalent situation with a car (i.e. a high fixed cost plus a much lower usage based cost).

 

[yorksrob]

With the best will in the world, the railway does need some business and predictable commuter traffic to return, so carnet tickets and company discounts are needed.

However, discretionary travel will need to be a more significant proportion of the railway industry, and something like a national railcard is absolutely necessary to encourage such travel amongst the less "at risk" groups.

 

[talldave]

A National Railcard is a better way to get an equivalent situation with a car (i.e. a high fixed cost plus a much lower usage based cost).

Indeed. Sadly even the Railcard situation is mess. Perhaps they'll do an able-bodied tall grumpy git card for me?!

That said, since moving to London a year ago, I've not renewed my Hatton/Lichfield/wherever annual season that I've had for years. I just can't make it pay. If I can tolerate an hour on a bus I can get into Central London for £1.50!