GWR Class 769 information. (Units no longer with GWR - Off Lease March 23)

[DorkingMain]

Wasn't use on the Windsor branch intended, along with Bourne End and Henley branches, and the Basingstoke and Redhill/Gatwick routes?

"Plans" made by the DfT and TOCs often aren't grounded in practicality or possibility lol

 

[JN114]

Wasn't use on the Windsor branch intended, along with Bourne End and Henley branches, and the Basingstoke and Redhill/Gatwick routes?

With other timetable changes there are no longer enough units. Windsor has been dropped to facilitate the shortfall

 

[Bob Price]

I wonder if the Windsor being so short could just have a battery 230? Recharge at Slough?

 

[JN114]

I wonder if the Windsor being so short could just have a battery 230? Recharge at Slough?

It’s on 3 minute turnarounds almost all day on a weekday. Needs to be a proper 4 car EMU really

 

[fgwrich]

It’s on 3 minute turnarounds almost all day on a weekday. Needs to be a proper 4 car EMU really

I'm surprised Windsor hasn't been listed as an easy candidate for electrification yet - a simple, single track branch which is virtually straight and with one over bridge. Though of course any modifications to the viaduct may have to go through Her Majesty first. It would even suit a battery emu similar to the Battery 379.

 

[Meerkat]

I'm surprised Windsor hasn't been listed as an easy candidate for electrification yet - a simple, single track branch which is virtually straight and with one over bridge. Though of course any modifications to the viaduct may have to go through Her Majesty first. It would even suit a battery emu similar to the Battery 379.

I count three overbridges?? Two are relatively modern (ie not original) so hopefully will have clearance, but all three would be very big disruptive jobs if they had to be replaced!

 

[Grumpy Git]

Just gone past a very recently painted 319 in Crewe south sidings (parked on the same road as the GC train).

It was in GWR green all over with standard "Tellytubby face" yellow ends, but had no other markings apart from its number.

Does anyone know anything about it? It was in very fine fettle!

 

[390112A]

Yes it will be a class 769 unit converted from 319s no idea why it would be in Crewe but it will operate the following services according to Wikipedia...

• Reading – Redhill or Gatwick Airport
• London Paddington – Reading
• Twyford - Henley-on-Thames
• Slough – Windsor & Eton Central
• West Ealing – Greenford
• Reading - Basingstoke

 

[Grumpy Git]

Yes it will be a class 769 unit converted from 319s no idea why it would be in Crewe but it will operate the following services according to Wikipedia...

• Reading – Redhill or Gatwick Airport
• London Paddington – Reading and Oxford
• Twyford - Henley-on-Thames
• Maidenhead - Marlow or Bourne End
• Slough – Windsor & Eton Central
• West Ealing – Greenford
• Reading - Basingstoke

That was my original thought, but it was definitely numbered 319, xxx

 

[Domh245]

They've been refurbished/repainted but are stored in Crewe awaiting conversion at Loughborough (where it gains the 769 class number)

 

[FGW_DID]

But it was definitely numbered 319, xxx

The 319s are being converted to 769 with the addition of Diesel engines. This means they will be able to operate using either diesel, AC or DC traction.

 

[cactustwirly]

Yes it will be a class 769 unit converted from 319s no idea why it would be in Crewe but it will operate the following services according to Wikipedia...

• Reading – Redhill or Gatwick Airport
• London Paddington – Reading and Oxford
• Twyford - Henley-on-Thames
• Maidenhead - Marlow or Bourne End
• Slough – Windsor & Eton Central
• West Ealing – Greenford
• Reading - Basingstoke

Wikipedia is wrong, they won't be used east of Maidenhead, nor to Oxford.

 

[JN114]

But it was definitely numbered 319, xxx

You’re correct it is a 319.

The mods programme is seeing them refurbished as 319s first, then converted to 769s.

As we have no use for them as 319s they are being stored off-route before conversion.

 

[py_megapixel]

Wikipedia is wrong, they won't be used east of Maidenhead, nor to Oxford.

Are you sure? The citation for the routes listed on Wikipedia is https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/nineteen-tri-mode-flex-class-769s-for-gwr

If you have a publicly available source stating something different, then I will update Wikipedia, as I have an account on there.

 

[cactustwirly]

Are you sure? The citation for the routes listed on Wikipedia is https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/nineteen-tri-mode-flex-class-769s-for-gwr

If you have a publicly available source stating something different, then I will update Wikipedia, as I have an account on there.

Well the list on Wikipedia is very clearly wrong as they won't even fit the Greenford branch and definitely not Marlow.
GWR have plenty of 387s to use to Paddington, so I don't see why they'd use a much slower 769...

Note that link says:

“Final details of exactly how and where the new fleet will be used are currently being drawn up, and expected to be finalised later this year.”

 

[JN114]

Note that link says:

Nor does it actually mention the routes listed on Wiki.

 

[swt_passenger]

Nor does it actually mention the routes listed on Wiki.

I expect the bit about “standing in during 387 conversions for HEX“ is somewhat overtaken by subsequent changes?

 

[py_megapixel]

Well the list on Wikipedia is very clearly wrong as they won't even fit the Greenford branch and definitely not Marlow.
GWR have plenty of 387s to use to Paddington, so I don't see why they'd use a much slower 769...

Note that link says:

Nor does it actually mention the routes listed on Wiki.

No, I wasn't challenging what you said - I know Wiki has a tendency to be unreliable.

I shall update that to citation needed. If I just delete I'm sure it'll get reverted, but I don't like to do nothing as it's obviously wrong!

 

[cactustwirly]

No, I wasn't challenging what you said - I know Wiki has a tendency to be unreliable.

I shall update that to citation needed. If I just delete I'm sure it'll get reverted, but I don't like to do nothing as it's obviously wrong!

There isn't an official source, but the 769 routes have been mentioned by certain forum members on the know.

 

[JN114]

I shall update that to citation needed. If I just delete I'm sure it'll get reverted, but I don't like to do nothing as it's obviously wrong!

I’m not good at Wiki editing so thank you, one little step toward correcting rail misinformation on wiki.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I think it is probably best that wiki isn’t quoted here, especially when it takes more notice of a poor magazine article rather than the person on here actually involved with the route clearance.

The cover for 387 wasn’t direct either. The plan originally was to release Turbos to cover for 387’s and when Crossrail came to Reading for those cover Turbos to go west with the other 3 car units released by the 769’s.

The only routes the 769 units are due to enter service on are the North Downs, Basingstoke, Henley and to Bourne End in the peaks. 16 diagrams from 19 units. Originally the Windsor was going to be the 16th diagram but the 4th (peak) Basingstoke unit took that one away.

 

[Minstral25]

I think this GWR media release covers where they will be going quite well and matches Clarence Yards usually excellent summary

GWR News

News from GWR

www.gwr.com

 

[Wyrleybart]

I think this GWR media release covers where they will be going quite well and matches Clarence Yards usually excellent summary

Agree with that except for one word "Minstral"
I would use always instead of usually

 

[JonathanH]

The GWR franchise agreement, published on the DfT website on Friday contains an interesting table for introduction of the 769s and a number of provisions about what happens in the event of the delay in introductiion. Today (12 October) was the target date for the fifth unit to be in service and seven units should already be in possession of GWR.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/925399/great-western-rail-franchise-agreement.pdf

Class 769 Units
25.1 In accordance with its obligations in Schedule 1.6 (The Rolling Stock) the Franchisee shall:
(a) enter into the Class 769 Units Lease by no later than the Start Date;
(b) use all reasonable endeavours to ensure that each Class 769 Unit specified in Column A of the table below is accepted by no later than the target date applicable to that Class 769 Unit specified in the corresponding row in Column B of the table below (each a “Class 769 Unit Target Acceptance Date”); and
(c) use all reasonable endeavours to ensure that each Class 769 Unit specified in Column A of the table below enters into Unrestricted Passenger Carrying Service by no later than the target date applicable to that Class 769 Unit specified in the corresponding row in Column C of the table below (each a “Class 769 Unit Entry Into Passenger Service Target Date”)

Column A Class 769 Unit Number	Column B Class 769 Unit Target Acceptance Date	Column C Class 769 entry into Passenger Service Target Date
1	06/04/2020	28/09/2020
2	27/04/2020	28/09/2020
3	10/08/2020	28/09/2020
4	24/08/2020	28/09/2020
5	07/09/2020	12/10/2020
6	21/09/2020	26/10/2020
7	05/10/2020	09/11/2020
8	19/10/2020	23/11/2020
9	02/11/2020	07/12/2020
10	16/11/2020	21/12/2020
11	30/11/2020	11/01/2021
12	14/12/2020	25/01/2021
13	04/01/2021	08/02/2021
14	18/01/2021	22/02/2021
15	01/02/2021	08/03/2021
16	15/02/2021	22/03/2021
17	01/03/2021	05/04/2021
18	15/03/2021	10/05/2021
19	29/03/2021	10/05/2021

25.2 The Financial Model assumes that in respect of each Class 769 Unit:
(a) from the Class 769 Unit Target Acceptance Date specified in Column B of the table for that Class 769 Unit until the corresponding Class 769 Entry Into Passenger Service Target Date specified in Column C of the table the Franchisee shall incur rolling stock leasing charges in respect of the Class 769 Unit together with costs consistent with ensuring that there is no deterioration in the condition of the relevant Class 769 Unit prior to the Class 769 Entry Into Passenger Service Target Date for such Class 769 Unit; and
(b) from the Class 769 Unit Entry Into Passenger Service Target Date specified in Column C of the table for that Class 769 Unit until the end of the Franchise Term the Franchisee shall
(i) incur rolling stock leasing charges in respect of such Class 769 Unit together with operational and maintenance costs consistent with its use in unrestricted operational passenger service and
(ii) receive specified revenue from the use of such Class 769 Unit in unrestricted operational passenger service.

25.3 If in respect of any Class 769 Units the actual acceptance date is later than the Class 769 Unit Target Acceptance Date or the actual date of entry into unrestricted service delivering Passenger Services is later than the Class 769 Entry Into Passenger Service Target Date then, the net financial effect of all such circumstances on the Franchisee shall be agreed by the Secretary of State and the Franchisee or, in default of agreement within a timescale regarded as reasonable by the Secretary of State, the Secretary of State shall reasonably determine such net financial effect. The Franchisee shall provide all information that the Secretary of State shall reasonably require for the purposes of identifying such net financial effect. The assessment of such net financial effect shall take into account:
(a) any liquidated damages payable to the Franchisee in relation to any such delay;
(b) the lease, maintenance and other operating costs avoided or deferred by the Franchisee in consequence of the delay (including costs relating to the provision of depot facilities in relation to the Class 769 rolling stock which are not incurred as a result);
(c) any additional lease, maintenance and other operating costs reasonably incurred by the Franchisee as a result of extending the leases on other rolling stock within the Train Fleet beyond the lease expiry dates specified in Schedule 1.6 (The Rolling Stock) of the Franchise Agreement or the leasing or hiring of other rolling stock vehicles to substitute for delayed Class 769 vehicles;
(d) any reasonably anticipated loss of revenue suffered by the Franchisee as a consequence of delay; and
(e) any other cost savings made by the Franchisee as a consequence of the delay. No account shall be taken of any impacts of any Class 769 Units actually entering into unrestricted service delivering Passenger Services by a date later than the relevant Class 769 Unit Entry Into Passenger Service Target Date on amounts to be incurred by the Franchisee under Schedule 7.1 (Operational Performance) and Schedule 7.2 (Customer Experience and Engagement) or amounts payable by the Franchisee under Schedule 7.3 (Service Quality Regime). The Franchisee shall use all reasonable endeavours to minimise increased costs incurred and revenue foregone as a result of the actual entry into unrestricted service delivering Passenger Services of any Class 769 Unit being a date later than the relevant Class 769 Unit Entry Into Passenger Service Target Date and, if the Secretary of State reasonably determines it has not done so, the Secretary of State shall be entitled to substitute a lower cost and/or a higher revenue based on his reasonable determination of what the cost incurred and/or revenue foregone by the Franchisee should have been if it had exercised all reasonable endeavours.

25.4 If it is agreed or reasonably determined that the net financial effect of the actual acceptance dates of Class 769 Units being later than the relevant Class 769 Unit Target Acceptance Dates and/or the actual dates of entry into unrestricted service delivering Passenger Services of Class 769 Units being later than the relevant Class 769 Entry Into Passenger Service Target Dates and the overall impact is a positive one for the Franchisee, so that it is financially better off than it would have been had any such delays not occurred, then (without prejudice to any other remedies that might be available to the Secretary of State) an amount shall be payable by the Franchisee to the Secretary of State of the amount required to pass such net financial benefit of the delay to the Secretary of State (a “Delayed Rolling Stock Franchise Payment Adjustment”). The Delayed Rolling Stock Franchise Payment Adjustment shall be calculated and paid on a Reporting Period by Reporting Period basis (or at such alternative frequency as the Secretary of State may specify) as reasonably determined by the Secretary of State and paid by way of adjustment to Franchise Payments. Each such amount shall be payable on the first Payment Date falling no less than seven (7) days after such determination. If the net financial effect of relevant delay to any Class 769 Units is a negative one for the Franchisee, so that its net financial position is worse than it would have been had relevant delay not occurred, no adjustment shall be made to Franchise Payments.

25.4A Subject to the Franchisee having complied with its obligations under paragraph 25.1 above and paragraph 25.5 below, and under Part 2 of Schedule 1.1 (Service Development), a failure of the Franchisee to secure an Access Agreement, timetable development rights or a Timetable consistent with the TSR as a result of the entry of any of the Class 769 Units into Unrestricted Passenger Carrying Service being (or being expected to be) later than the Passenger Change Date in or around May 2021 shall not be a contravention of this Agreement.

25.5 Delayed Class 769 Mitigation Plan
(a) For the purposes of this paragraph 25.5, “Relevant Class 769 Delay” means, in respect of a Class 769 Unit, its actual entry into Unrestricted Passenger Carrying Service being a date later than the relevant Class 769 Unit Entry Into Passenger Service Target Date.
(b) The Franchisee shall notify the Secretary of State as soon as reasonably practicable if it becomes aware of any material risk that a Relevant Class 769 Delay will occur. If a Relevant Class 769 Delay does occur the Franchisee shall use all reasonable endeavours to mitigate the impact on the delivery of the Franchise Services of the unavailability of the relevant Class 769 Unit(s) at the expected time including by identifying and proposing value for money alternative sources of replacement rolling stock.
(c) If a Relevant Class 769 Delay has occurred or the Secretary of State believes that there is a material risk that a Relevant Class 769 Delay will occur the Secretary of State may serve a notice on the Franchisee requiring it to produce a plan to a reasonable specification provided with the notice to remedy or mitigate the impact of the delayed availability of the relevant Class 769 Unit(s) (“Delayed Class 769 Mitigation Plan”). Such specification may include measures to be implemented by the Franchisee to mitigate the direct or indirect impact of the Relevant Class 769 Delay on any affected Train Operator. The Delayed Class 769 Mitigation Plan shall provide a comprehensive analysis backed by relevant data and assumptions of:
(i) all cost and revenue and other financial implications of options contained within it including the potential implications for Franchise Payments;
(ii) the implications (if any) for the Benchmarks; and
(iii) the likely impact of options within it for existing and future passenger journeys and journey opportunities.
(d) The Franchisee shall meet with the Secretary of State to discuss the Delayed Class 769 Mitigation Plan and provide such further information or analysis and further iterations of the Delayed Class 769 Mitigation Plan as the Secretary of State shall reasonably require.

The Secretary of State shall have the right to direct the Franchisee to use all reasonable endeavours to implement a Delayed Class 769 Mitigation Plan (either in the form submitted by the Franchisee or with such amendments as the Secretary of State may, following consultation with the Franchisee, direct). Any such direction by the Secretary of State shall be a Change, provided that the Secretary of State shall have the right to direct that there should not be a Change in circumstances where the Relevant Class 769 Delay to which the Delayed Class 769 Mitigation Plan relates is caused by or results from any event or circumstance which is within the reasonable control of the Franchisee.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Delayed class 769 mitigation plan presumably means

Keep using the Turbos on the intended class 769 diagrams
Keep shortforming Cardiff-Pompeys
Keep on using the 143s on the Torbay circuits until they run out of wheelsets / Major exam miles.
Keep dreaming

It really is very disappointing that the excellent engineering company that Wabtec nee Brush was, and the excellent Rosco Porterbrook was have combined to deliver the 769s onto three TOCs in such a late fashion. Admittedly that from April 2020 Covid has intervened, but all of the Northern and TfW units should have been in traffic by then anyway.

 

[OTRail]

Delayed class 769 mitigation plan presumably means

Keep using the Turbos on the intended class 769 diagrams
Keep shortforming Cardiff-Pompeys
Keep on using the 143s on the Torbay circuits until they run out of wheelsets / Major exam miles.
Keep dreaming

It really is very disappointing that the excellent engineering company that Wabtec nee Brush was, and the excellent Rosco Porterbrook was have combined to deliver the 769s onto three TOCs in such a late fashion. Admittedly that from April 2020 Covid has intervened, but all of the Northern and TfW units should have been in traffic by then anyway.

Even the GWR units should have started to enter service in Spring 2019 once the 387s were released for Heathrow Express services...

 

[Clarence Yard]

Delayed class 769 mitigation plan presumably means

Keep using the Turbos on the intended class 769 diagrams
Keep shortforming Cardiff-Pompeys
Keep on using the 143s on the Torbay circuits until they run out of wheelsets / Major exam miles.
Keep dreaming

It really is very disappointing that the excellent engineering company that Wabtec nee Brush was, and the excellent Rosco Porterbrook was have combined to deliver the 769s onto three TOCs in such a late fashion. Admittedly that from April 2020 Covid has intervened, but all of the Northern and TfW units should have been in traffic by then anyway.

No it doesn't mean that. It means this;

Keep using Turbos on intended class 769 diagrams
Keep using the class 143 until Xmas/End of Year and use additional GTi sets afterwards (effectively GWR are 2 x 150/0 diagram equivalents short post 143 demise before you add in those extra GTi sets).
The Cardiff-Pompey should have enough Turbos to not short form, now or in the future.

 

[Wyrleybart]

No it doesn't mean that. It means this;

Keep using Turbos on intended class 769 diagrams
Keep using the class 143 until Xmas/End of Year and use additional GTi sets afterwards (effectively GWR are 2 x 150/0 diagram equivalents short post 143 demise before you add in those extra GTi sets).
The Cardiff-Pompey should have enough Turbos to not short form, now or in the future.

So things aren't so dire then. That is good.
So the extra GTis provide enough seats to replace the 150/0s after the 143s go.
Presumably, because Torbay is seasonal to a degree, as a last resort you might get away with a short formed 150/2 vice 150/2+143 until the 769s start to release the Turbos towards Exeter. early in 2021.

Have Reading got the first 769 onto a training regime yet ?

 

[Clarence Yard]

No - still doing approvals. Won’t be too long, hopefully.

 

[Melancholia]

Is there a 769 test run due this Monday? Saw on RTT this https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V04428/2020-12-14/detailed

If followed, it's a couple Reading - Didcot returns, with the last leg being Didcot to Theale, and then back to Reading TCD.

Looks like pathed for a 110mph EMU, which would indicate a 387, but can't see why they would need to test run a 387, even the HEX ones, as it's going to places HEX doesn't visit.

Anyone got any info?