Driving cab door left open

[Bow Fell]

During coronavirus in the summer Merseyrail were keeping the doors locked at Southport until a couple of minutes before departure time. No idea what the reason was, maybe in case of last minute platform/unit alterations, or perhaps just to enforce the policy that nobody should be travelling anyway unless it was essential!

Units being cleaned during 20 min turnaround

 

[StephenHunter]

That bloke who used to be in East-17 somehow managed to run himself over with his own car...

Anton Yelchin got killed when his car that he thought was in park rolled back and crushed him against a pillar.

Won’t give too much detail but surely this would be a tea and biscuits matter if the controllers found out?

I believe the British Army term is "Interview without Coffee", BTW.

 

[Dstock7080]

Ouch (literally)!

I had understood the reason ‘67 stock didn’t have external cab doors was because the design was modified, after a driver managed to get himself left behind by his own train, which promptly drove itself to the next station on ATO.

No idea whether there is any truth in that.

‘67 Stock were modified after driver had pushed ATO start buttons before door interlock at station had been received, walked down outside of train, kicked obstructed door closed and train promptly departed without them.

 

[Stigy]

Although not technically a massive issue as the desk wouldn’t be active, it is a non-public area and should be secured. I’ve yet to see a unit physically locked (as in the butterfly is locked with a t key or similar), but it is nonetheless a DfT requirement that these areas are secured.

 

[jamesst]

During coronavirus in the summer Merseyrail were keeping the doors locked at Southport until a couple of minutes before departure time. No idea what the reason was, maybe in case of last minute platform/unit alterations, or perhaps just to enforce the policy that nobody should be travelling anyway unless it was essential!

Thats done now at Southport and sometimes at other terminal ends when the train is being sprayed between trips (covid regs).
The guard will reopen the doors when they come out for the next trip.

 

[Tom Quinne]

Also Northern has had a "falling out" incident in which a guard who was a regular poster on uk.railway was sadly killed. Was a good while ago now but the incident was well-documented.

I thought he stepped out, rather than fall out unfortunately.

 

[bengley]

I thought he stepped out, rather than fall out unfortunately.

Indeed, I know more details about this case through colleagues at work and it is generally accepted that it wasn't an accident

 

[Val3ntine]

It's happened on LU. Most LU stocks can be driven with the cab doors open, which although in most cases requires cutting out an interlock, is sort of allowed (it's more of a case of blind eye territory rather than explicitly permitted, but it keeps people happy in summer). Some years ago an instructor and trainee were in a cab together with one or both doors open, and the instructor was discussing the finer points of a vasectomy, which resulted in the trainee passing out and falling out of the door - fortunately without injury.

Whilst it may sound like an urban legend, it's definitely a true story!

Hahahaha that’s golden!!! (Glad he or she is okay though)
On a sort of same note, does LU stock have air con in the cabs? Can’t imagine in summer to be instructed not to open doors when they can’t even open windows, I know the Bakerloo has opening windows but I don’t think any other does?

 

[bramling]

Hahahaha that’s golden!!! (Glad he or she is okay though)
On a sort of same note, does LU stock have air con in the cabs? Can’t imagine in summer to be instructed not to open doors when they can’t even open windows, I know the Bakerloo has opening windows but I don’t think any other does?

All LU stock, except perhaps the W&C, has cab air conditioning. The 72 stock is the only one with opening windows, and all except S can be driven with the cab door open. Actually I’m not sure about 09 stock.

 

[Val3ntine]

All LU stock, except perhaps the W&C, has cab air conditioning. The 72 stock is the only one with opening windows, and all except S can be driven with the cab door open. Actually I’m not sure about 09 stock.

Ta mate

 

[Bletchleyite]

During coronavirus in the summer Merseyrail were keeping the doors locked at Southport until a couple of minutes before departure time. No idea what the reason was, maybe in case of last minute platform/unit alterations, or perhaps just to enforce the policy that nobody should be travelling anyway unless it was essential!

I suspect it was in some way virus-related - I don't quite know what, but on Merseyrail the doors don't get locked unless the train is going fully out of service, never during turnarounds in normal times.

Strange! During the lock lockdown I was on a 6 car service home from work, the cab door on one of the middle cabs wasn't locked and was wide open for the whole journey. The drivers compartment was locked of course. Seen this a few times now.

I don't suppose there's an awful lot you could do if you did get in there, as neither the door panels nor the cab would be keyed in. But my observation over the years is that cabs get left open all the time, but there's an invisible force field which prevents anyone going in there, even the scalliest scally.

Indeed, before the 1998 refurb, the doors weren't locked in any form, they could be opened by sliding the emergency bolt which didn't have glass over it.

 

[Stuart-h]

Were leaving the cab doors open on the mpv's when we swap ends. I'm in the rear cab and the driver is in the front cab. Makes it easyer for us.

 

[norbitonflyer]

‘67 Stock were modified after driver had pushed ATO start buttons before door interlock at station had been received, walked down outside of train, kicked obstructed door closed and train promptly departed without them.

I don't think they ever had cabside doors - neither did the similar 1972 stock where that wasn't an issue. (They were also sealed up on the 1960 stock when converted to ATO)

 

[Jozhua]

I was on a 222 last year being driven with the cab door open. We got up to 110mph, so can't help but think it might have got a bit drafty!

 

[HSTEd]

Wasn't it common practice in pre S-stock days for subsurface LU drivers to run with the cab doors open in the summer?

 

[bramling]

Wasn't it common practice in pre S-stock days for subsurface LU drivers to run with the cab doors open in the summer?

Yes, and it’s still fairly common on the stocks which allow it. The snag is that on the ATO lines it requires the train to be driven manually, which puts some drivers off.

 

[Dstock7080]

I don't think they ever had cabside doors - neither did the similar 1972 stock where that wasn't an issue. (They were also sealed up on the 1960 stock when converted to ATO)

Indeed they never had cab doors.
I was referring to the interlock modification mentioned in previous post I quoted.

 

[172345]

Deary me. Is this what we've come to? It's no big deal this.. plenty of NR staff about the place. The doors can be locked shut using a T key which can be easily brought online. Train crew often sit in the train on the Herefords so maybe the guard/ driver's was in the train having some snap?

The saloon lights are off which would suggest the engines are off meaning the driver's key is out of the desk the train is essentially dead. Let that be the end of the witch hunt.

 

[43066]

Indeed they never had cab doors.
I was referring to the interlock modification mentioned in previous post I quoted.

Ah, so the mod was to prevent the start button being pressed, and the train then starting if interlock was subsequently gained?

 

[PupCuff]

Definitely not the case.

Definitely is the case - cab doors open in traffic are recorded the same as any other exterior door open in traffic.

Admittedly, perhaps my sentence should read, 'definitely is the case assuming the operator in question is doing what it's supposed to', which I suspect is more accurate.

Trains do quite regularly get stopped by signals due to station staff/P-way/signallers observing open cab doors.

 

[Lewlew]

Ah, so the mod was to prevent the start button being pressed, and the train then starting if interlock was subsequently gained?

The modification was that you have to restroke the handle (TBC to off and release/coast then back to motors, for ATO you have to press the start buttons again) if you lose the pilot light and then regain it as the motors drop out and won't come back until restroked.

 

[Efini92]

Indeed, I know more details about this case through colleagues at work and it is generally accepted that it wasn't an accident

It’s more 50/50 guards say it was an accident and drivers say it was deliberate. I suppose the only people that really know are the driver and guard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought he stepped out, rather than fall out unfortunately.

It's possible, I don't think anyone really knows. While I didn't know him that well, I had met him in person (on his train), FWIW. A very sad loss to the railway.

 

[43066]

Definitely is the case - cab doors open in traffic are recorded the same as any other exterior door open in traffic.

Admittedly, perhaps my sentence should read, 'definitely is the case assuming the operator in question is doing what it's supposed to', which I suspect is more accurate.

Trains do quite regularly get stopped by signals due to station staff/P-way/signallers observing open cab doors.

I could certainly understand it for cabs other than the leading driving cab, but I’d be surprised if this is done in relation to doors open in active driving cabs (it’s hardly likely that the driver will be unaware!). Might be location/TOC dependent but, as per @LowLevel ‘s comment above, there are locations where this is long standing practice.

A passenger door open in traffic would be a different kettle of fish entirely and would usually lead to some kind of RAIB involvement.

 

[LowLevel]

Having dealt with a few in a past job rear cab doors on trains with inward opening doors accessible only to the driver were generally reported to the box, the train was stopped either en route or the crew were advised at a station stop, the driver or guard shut it and the train carried on.

Nothing like the usual process for dealing with a slam door on the catch or even worse open which leads to the door being locked out of use and an investigation and definitely nothing like the procedure for a power door being open which usually leads to the authorities being involved.

I've never known a train be stopped for the front cab door being open, be it a HST, 22x, loco on a freight or passenger train etc, and I've seen very many of them and wouldn't think twice about it - presumably because if there was a problem the train would stop itself anyway within a short period of time. As I say - in the area in which I work it is extremely common and staff at all levels from dispatch to signallers to management in both TOC or NR wouldn't think twice about it.

 

[Deepgreen]

There may be no operational reason to be concerned about an unattended open cab door, but vandalism? The 'Banksy' LU incident springs to mind - although that was in the passenger saloon, there's nothing to say cab vandalism isn't a prospect. Essentially, if it's out of bounds for the public, close the door.

 

[Efini92]

There’s an old hand driver at Blackpool (at the time of the incident he was a Victoria driver) who decided it was too hot one day and drive with the gangway door open. He got a reprimand for that.

 

[PupCuff]

I could certainly understand it for cabs other than the leading driving cab, but I’d be surprised if this is done in relation to doors open in active driving cabs (it’s hardly likely that the driver will be unaware!). Might be location/TOC dependent but, as per @LowLevel ‘s comment above, there are locations where this is long standing practice.

A passenger door open in traffic would be a different kettle of fish entirely and would usually lead to some kind of RAIB involvement.

As I say, what should be done 'by rights' and what is done are often two different things. I favour a consistent approach in line with standards, but ultimately if a TOC or TOCs want to go and do their own thing they've only got themselves to blame when someone gets hurt. Using the 22x example, if the Guard or the Customer Host were to come into the driving cab just as the train jerked, they could fall from height at speed and likely be killed. It doesn't make a jot of difference whether they were supposed to be in there or not, there would still have been a big massive gaping hole in the side of the train with a fall prevention system (that being, in this case, a door) which isn't being used correctly.

RAIB involvement for a passenger door open in traffic would be rare but it would depend on the individual circumstances of the incident, I recall a couple which RAIB investigated off the top of my head, one where a conductor nearly fell out when he tried to lock a door out of use at speed which then came open and another where a door came open but the driver overrode the brake application for a good number of miles. A typical door open in traffic incident wouldn't be reported to RAIB.

Having dealt with a few in a past job rear cab doors on trains with inward opening doors accessible only to the driver were generally reported to the box, the train was stopped either en route or the crew were advised at a station stop, the driver or guard shut it and the train carried on.

Nothing like the usual process for dealing with a slam door on the catch or even worse open which leads to the door being locked out of use and an investigation and definitely nothing like the procedure for a power door being open which usually leads to the authorities being involved.

If reported to the box, that will then be passed on by Network Rail to the Train Operator who (are supposed to) record the incident. The crew should be following whatever procedures are necessary in the rule book/company instructions for the type of door in question, so for the crew the procedures will differ, but for the purpose of recording of incidents a cab door open in traffic is still supposed to go down as a door open in traffic (of course many cab doors these days are on the interlock anyway so it's a moot point).

 

[LowLevel]

As I say, what should be done 'by rights' and what is done are often two different things. I favour a consistent approach in line with standards, but ultimately if a TOC or TOCs want to go and do their own thing they've only got themselves to blame when someone gets hurt. Using the 22x example, if the Guard or the Customer Host were to come into the driving cab just as the train jerked, they could fall from height at speed and likely be killed. It doesn't make a jot of difference whether they were supposed to be in there or not, there would still have been a big massive gaping hole in the side of the train with a fall prevention system (that being, in this case, a door) which isn't being used correctly.

RAIB involvement for a passenger door open in traffic would be rare but it would depend on the individual circumstances of the incident, I recall a couple which RAIB investigated off the top of my head, one where a conductor nearly fell out when he tried to lock a door out of use at speed which then came open and another where a door came open but the driver overrode the brake application for a good number of miles. A typical door open in traffic incident wouldn't be reported to RAIB.



If reported to the box, that will then be passed on by Network Rail to the Train Operator who (are supposed to) record the incident. The crew should be following whatever procedures are necessary in the rule book/company instructions for the type of door in question, so for the crew the procedures will differ, but for the purpose of recording of incidents a cab door open in traffic is still supposed to go down as a door open in traffic (of course many cab doors these days are on the interlock anyway so it's a moot point).

I wonder if there is any defined point whereby someone decided that any door open in traffic was "not allowed". I remember in my youth class 150/1s regularly used to arrive/depart with the guard hanging out of the door, same with loco hauled sets into the 2000s and 2010s, various EMUs and before they were modded class 156s and that is without looking at driving cabs.

I don't however remember any point where someone said this "this should stop" uniformly across all operators or indeed a point where it did - as usual whether they're meant to or not it has been a piece meal change over the years.

I do remember in the aftermath of the James Street incident some of the documentation from the RSSB commented on the design feature on the 313/314/315/507/508 EMUs of having a non interlocked cab door to allow the guard to observe departure, but at the same time the comment was made that this was seen to be an unacceptable risk on the modern railway so it was forbidden.

I do remember a number of years ago a notice case item went out regarding being vigilant about leaving the rear cab door open on HST sets owing to a number of trains having to be stopped for it to be shut and the concern it caused platform staff, but even then there was nothing about the front cab. Class 222 if I remember rightly will give a message on the TMS if the *back* cab door isn't correctly shut but will quite happily fly along at 125 mph with the front cab doors open which suggests to me some thought was given to that being acceptable back in 2004 when they were entering traffic.

I have noticed it declining in frequency over the years though as the older hands have departed. As you say I've noted several Northern 195s failing to depart because the cab door is still slightly open so it must be on the interlock there.

 

[Ashley Hill]

There’s an old hand driver at Blackpool (at the time of the incident he was a Victoria driver) who decided it was too hot one day and drive with the gangway door open. He got a reprimand for that.

I've known this happen on 153s with both front and rear gangway doors open whilst there's been no passengers around. To be honest it just circulated hot air and was of no cooling factor any more than having the cab windows open.
When 150s were first introduced into my area there was no door/brake interlock and we often ran into a platform with the local guards door open. After fitting we would write 'modified' above the panel to save an unwelcome brake application. I got a subtle reminder to not depart with a 150/1 cab door open once when the station manager bellowed over the station tannoy for the guard to shut that door!