Driving cab door left open

[bramling]

Ah, so the mod was to prevent the start button being pressed, and the train then starting if interlock was subsequently gained?

Yes.

This isn’t specific to ATO trains though. There was the incident in the 1990s when a Piccadilly Line driver had door problems at King’s Cross. He had hung his bag on the handle, and as if that wasn’t bad enough had managed to leave it in a motoring position. So when he went back and assisted the offending door closed, off went the train and it didn’t get stopped until it encountered a red signal and got tripped. ISTR the driver got some kind of prison sentence as a result.

So now if the pilot light is lost, even momentarily, the handle has to be moved back to off and release before the train will motor again.

Can’t really comment on exactly what the ATO does. ATO? What’s that?!

 

[PupCuff]

I wonder if there is any defined point whereby someone decided that any door open in traffic was "not allowed". I remember in my youth class 150/1s regularly used to arrive/depart with the guard hanging out of the door, same with loco hauled sets into the 2000s and 2010s, various EMUs and before they were modded class 156s and that is without looking at driving cabs.

I don't however remember any point where someone said this "this should stop" uniformly across all operators or indeed a point where it did - as usual whether they're meant to or not it has been a piece meal change over the years.

I do remember in the aftermath of the James Street incident some of the documentation from the RSSB commented on the design feature on the 313/314/315/507/508 EMUs of having a non interlocked cab door to allow the guard to observe departure, but at the same time the comment was made that this was seen to be an unacceptable risk on the modern railway so it was forbidden.

I do remember a number of years ago a notice case item went out regarding being vigilant about leaving the rear cab door open on HST sets owing to a number of trains having to be stopped for it to be shut and the concern it caused platform staff, but even then there was nothing about the front cab. Class 222 if I remember rightly will give a message on the TMS if the *back* cab door isn't correctly shut but will quite happily fly along at 125 mph with the front cab doors open which suggests to me some thought was given to that being acceptable back in 2004 when they were entering traffic.

I have noticed it declining in frequency over the years though as the older hands have departed. As you say I've noted several Northern 195s failing to depart because the cab door is still slightly open so it must be on the interlock there.

It's a very good question, and having worked Mk1s and the like in the past I'm all too familiar with the benefits of having a sturdy guards' door to aid visibility of the dispatch corridor. It's not dissimilar from the question that was posed on here a bit back about drivers having to stop now for token exchanges.

In my opinion, there's a distinction to be made between an open cab/local door which is being 'supervised' if you will, ie, has a conductor standing at it, and one that is just open because it has not been closed. The former, whilst still being a potential risk of falling out, is only going to be open at relatively low speeds and as there's a platform next to it there won't be a significant distance to fall. The big risk with having an open door on departure is people on the platform running late being tempted to join in, and a sturdy conductor blocking the way is going to reduce some of that risk but does also introduce the risk of the conductor being bowled over by a panicking customer trying to board post-dispatch (back when we had slam door trains it was bad enough with laterunners trying to board through the droplights).

It's also a case of balancing the risks of the procedure with the risks you're trying to minimise and a lot of work in recent years has gone into reducing the effects of crowding (eg by relocating station furniture to less busy bits of the platform, incentivising customers to stand in bits of the platform further away from stairs etc) which can push people towards the platform/train interface, and how we influence customers behaviour at stations and on platforms (eg highlighting the risks of alcohol around the railway, visible staff to act as a deterrent to horseplay, 'lend a helping hand' type campaigns so people aren't struggling with luggage at stations which can lead to a perception they need to rush) - if they're not too close to the edge in the first place then they can't fall between the train and the platform.

I would expect, though I haven't looked, that what's happened is the rule has been there for a while to say 'local' doors shouldn't be open but for many years it's not really been enforced, and as safety culture has developed the industry has felt more confident in challenging it and asking whether actually it's what we should be doing. Additionally more and more conductors now will be joining the industry learning interlocked power door stock and then when faced with a train where you can theoretically lean out of while it's on the move, this isn't seen as something that they would have any reason to do. Indeed I often see newer conductors not even opening cab droplight windows departing stations now.

 

[MissPWay]

Just checking if this is the same forum where a few weeks ago people wouldn’t pull the passcom because a passenger door was open because wasn’t a big deal and they would “sit and watch,” ready to strike should an angelic toddler come wobbling down the carriage.....

 

[philthetube]

Going back to A stock days on the MET, you would sometimes see the M door wedged part open in the summer.

M door being the one on the front of the train

 

[Lewlew]

Going back to A stock days on the MET, you would sometimes see the M door wedged part open in the summer.

M door being the one on the front of the train

Still happens on the Bakerloo occasionally

 

[221129]

Thats fair enough and yeah I agree its going to be hard to fall out of your own train! The majority of these 150 door incidents are coming from or going to the depot so only the driver on. Still causes the management to lose their heads!

But it means a passenger can access the train. So I'm not surprised management are upset about it. Two very very different scenarios.

Definitely is the case - cab doors open in traffic are recorded the same as any other exterior door open in traffic.

The rear cab maybe, but I've never heard of a driver being stopped with a leading cab door open.

 

[43066]

Using the 22x example, if the Guard or the Customer Host were to come into the driving cab just as the train jerked, they could fall from height at speed and likely be killed. It doesn't make a jot of difference whether they were supposed to be in there or not, there would still have been a big massive gaping hole in the side of the train with a fall prevention system (that being, in this case, a door) which isn't being used correctly.

Sorry but anyone who signs the stock would know this is such a highly implausible scenario that it simply isn’t worth worrying about. Quite apart from guard/customer host not generally entering when in motion, they only generally open the door enough to speak to the driver. To fall out you’d have to walk right into the cab, somehow not notice the door was open (it isn’t exactly quiet at speed), and then stand right next to the door (which is very narrow).

If a train running at 100mph+ jerks enough to throw someone up against a door, I’d suggest it’s about to end up in a field!

This is a totally different scenario to guards leaning out of doors when running into and out of platforms. If anyone sees a locomotive or unit with a leading cab door open, this is accepted practice in many locations. Please don’t bother reporting it. All you’ll be doing is causing unnecessary delay and inconvenience!

Class 222 if I remember rightly will give a message on the TMS if the *back* cab door isn't correctly shut but will quite happily fly along at 125 mph with the front cab doors open which suggests to me some thought was given to that being acceptable back in 2004 when they were entering traffic.

Almost certainly because that stock has no opening windows, and the cabs can be like greenhouses, so opening the door is the only means of ventilation if the A/C is weak/non existent.

 

[trainmania100]

Saw a pic on Facebook during the hotter days of this year, a 319 with the front middle door open presumably for air conditioning, don't have the pic, probably one of those Rog or ECS moves

 

[skyhigh]

I have noticed it declining in frequency over the years though as the older hands have departed. As you say I've noted several Northern 195s failing to depart because the cab door is still slightly open so it must be on the interlock there.

Yep, 195/331 cab doors are interlocked (with the various issues that brings to the unit given their build quality, but that's another topic)

 

[tpjm]

If I saw any type of traction with a door open in traffic, I'd be reporting it to the Signaller.

It's listed in Rule Book Module G1 so whatever 'local accepted practice' is in place, I'm sure the RSSB would not reflect positively on any kind of incident.

2 Danger to trains
The people responsible: all concerned

Whenever you can, you must check a moving train for anything that looks unsafe such as:

• a door not closed properly

 

[MissPWay]

If I saw any type of traction with a door open in traffic, I'd be reporting it to the Signaller.

It's listed in Rule Book Module G1 so whatever 'local accepted practice' is in place, I'm sure the RSSB would not reflect positively on any kind of incident.

And which scenario is more probable:

sig: “Driver, bring your train to a stand immediately, secure it and wait to be picked up by the RSSB helicopter to be taken to an interrogation and liquidation facility, thank God brave tpjm saw your cab door ajar and prevented a catastrophic accident!”

OR:

Sig: “We’ve had an eager young space cadet report your cab door being ajar, everything ok drive”

Driver: “Yes thanks signaller, air-con is on the blink again.”

Sig: “I guessed so, always one isn’t there?”

 

[philthetube]

UPS vans drivers drive round all summer with their front door open, ford and bedford vans also used to be often seen, I never heard of a driver falling out of one of those, and it is far more likely than a train

 

[dk1]

If I saw any type of traction with a door open in traffic, I'd be reporting it to the Signaller.

It's listed in Rule Book Module G1 so whatever 'local accepted practice' is in place, I'm sure the RSSB would not reflect positively on any kind of incident.

And cause unnecessary delay.

 

[ABB125]

UPS vans drivers drive round all summer with their front door open, ford and bedford vans also used to be often seen, I never heard of a driver falling out of one of those, and it is far more likely than a train

Notably it seems to only be UPS vans that have open doors (presumably because opening the door on a Transit/Sprinter is likely to result in it being knocked off!), and I have seen a few with open doors even at this time of year!
I was once on a school bus going home on one of the hottest days of the summer: the driver had the door open all the way through the town in which the school is located. There was absolutely no risk whatsoever, since the endemic traffic issues result in never exceeding about 0.1mph at that time of day! I believe it was an Optare Solo.

 

[LowLevel]

If I saw any type of traction with a door open in traffic, I'd be reporting it to the Signaller.

It's listed in Rule Book Module G1 so whatever 'local accepted practice' is in place, I'm sure the RSSB would not reflect positively on any kind of incident.

You don't see many 66s out your way then They have the doors open more often than they're closed.

 

[L401CJF]

Notably it seems to only be UPS vans that have open doors (presumably because opening the door on a Transit/Sprinter is likely to result in it being knocked off!), and I have seen a few with open doors even at this time of year!
I was once on a school bus going home on one of the hottest days of the summer: the driver had the door open all the way through the town in which the school is located. There was absolutely no risk whatsoever, since the endemic traffic issues result in never exceeding about 0.1mph at that time of day! I believe it was an Optare Solo.

I think with UPS vans it's also a case of whats the point in closing the door because I'm getting out again every 2 seconds to drop of a parcel!

When I was a kid it was very common to have buses driving with the doors open on hot days, and as a passenger it was always quite welcome to have the breeze! Most modern buses require the door to be shut for the handbrake to release, or the doors automatically shut when pulling away so not something you see often now.

Back to trains, its not uncommon for the 507/508s guard to open their cab door before the train has stopped and again to not close their door until a while after the train has departed. If I remember rightly the interlock doesn't click in on these until around 15mph or so, and again not sure if the cab doors are secured by the interlock or whether it's just the saloon doors.

 

[2L70]

If I saw any type of traction with a door open in traffic, I'd be reporting it to the Signaller.

It's listed in Rule Book Module G1 so whatever 'local accepted practice' is in place, I'm sure the RSSB would not reflect positively on any kind of incident.

Someone’s got a Review due.

 

[Clip]

If I saw any type of traction with a door open in traffic, I'd be reporting it to the Signaller.

It's listed in Rule Book Module G1 so whatever 'local accepted practice' is in place, I'm sure the RSSB would not reflect positively on any kind of incident.

A door that is open is not a 'door that is not closed properly'

 

[bramling]

And cause unnecessary delay.

There’s certainly times when it’s best to have “not seen” something.

 

[43066]

If I saw any type of traction with a door open in traffic, I'd be reporting it to the Signaller.

It's listed in Rule Book Module G1 so whatever 'local accepted practice' is in place, I'm sure the RSSB would not reflect positively on any kind of incident.

No, that bit of the rule book is asking you to report report things which look (to you) unsafe. An open door *might* be unsafe, if it’s a passenger saloon door. The door of an active driving cab being open is not unsafe.

As a (supposed) railwayman, hopefully you can distinguish between those two scenarios, and apply a little common sense in deciding what to report?

And which scenario is more probable:

sig: “Driver, bring your train to a stand immediately, secure it and wait to be picked up by the RSSB helicopter to be taken to an interrogation and liquidation facility, thank God brave tpjm saw your cab door ajar and prevented a catastrophic accident!”

OR:

Sig: “We’ve had an eager young space cadet report your cab door being ajar, everything ok drive”

Driver: “Yes thanks signaller, air-con is on the blink again.”

Sig: “I guessed so, always one isn’t there?”

Nail, meet head!

 

[GB]

If I saw any type of traction with a door open in traffic, I'd be reporting it to the Signaller.

It's listed in Rule Book Module G1 so whatever 'local accepted practice' is in place, I'm sure the RSSB would not reflect positively on any kind of incident.

The point there is "looks unsafe". You seriously telling me as a railwayman you believe a driver's door open or a inwards swinging loco door open is unsafe?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The point there is "looks unsafe". You seriously telling me as a railwayman you believe a driver's door open or a inwards swinging loco door open is unsafe?

I'm not staff, but it is to me clearly less safe than it not being open. Someone upthread pointed out that another member of staff could enter the cab just as the train swayed or braked - they may not be allowed to, but they still might do it, and be thrown out and killed. Or in some cases the driver could fall out - it's not like they are belted in, and don't some choose to drive standing (or is that just a Tube thing)?

I can see why it's tolerated, to be fair, but I can also see why people might consider it reportable.

 

[CBlue]

UPS vans drivers drive round all summer with their front door open, ford and bedford vans also used to be often seen, I never heard of a driver falling out of one of those, and it is far more likely than a train

Probably a bit different for UPS drivers as they should be wearing a seatbelt while in motion anyway!

 

[GB]

Less safe does not necessarily mean unsafe. He also said any type of traction, well most freight loco doors at least swing inward and have another door to the actual cab....no danger there what so ever.

 

[Ashley Hill]

On a sunny day cabs can be unbearably hot therefore drivers have the doors open where possible like HSTs,66s and 37s etc. It's not unsafe as the drivers sat down driving. New staff are entrenched in the belief that any door open on a moving train is unsafe but are not trained that it is not always the case.

 

[M60lad]

Its the same with Manchester's Metrolink I've seen and been on trams in the past on hot summer days where the driver has wedged the cab door open with something so they can get a nice breeze in the cab.

 

[weastebusdepot]

Back to trains, its not uncommon for the 507/508s guard to open their cab door before the train has stopped and again to not close their door until a while after the train has departed. If I remember rightly the interlock doesn't click in on these until around 15mph or so, and again not sure if the cab doors are secured by the interlock or whether it's just the saloon doors.

That's more because of how slowly the doors move on the 507/508s. In reality the guard gives two on the bell and flicks the local door closed immediately. The driver then takes power and by the time the train reaches the speed that the brakes would come on, the door has finished trundling across. It saves a few seconds at each station and is the approved method of working, but mention it to any other TOC and they will be horrified at the thought of it!

 

[Tom Quinne]

And cause unnecessary delay.

Yes, I had a member of station staff report a rear cab door on a Class 60 open once !

For those who don’t know the cab door on a Class 60 is partitioned from the actual cab by an internal door.

Freight drivers always have a door open especially in the summer, no way am I stopping a freight to tell the driver go close it unless there is a real threat to the safety of the train. Such as being held at a red in a dodgy area, it’s the royal train or a sensitive cargo train.

 

[the sniper]

You don't see many 66s out your way then They have the doors open more often than they're closed.

Indeed!

 

[Stigy]

Probably a bit different for UPS drivers as they should be wearing a seatbelt while in motion anyway!

Not necessarily. Drivers don’t have to wear a seatbelt for multi-drop deliveries assuming you’re stopping every few hundred yards I believe. Not just multi-drop deliveries, but if stopping that frequently that it is deemed not to be necessary.