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A while ago, I was in London with a friend and her teenage daughter. The effect of buses being cashless, for this ultra-occasional visitor to London, was that she was effectively excluded from using buses. The trip was planned at short notice, so no time to sort out an Oyster for the child; the policies in use then (and I think now) meant that she couldn't use the bus without paying a disproportionate surcharge.
The policy with regard to non-London-resident children is I agree a bit silly (and really has nothing to do with cash). But an Oyster at adult rate could have been obtained at any Tube station (for now). London bus fares are so cheap that compared with elsewhere in the country it would more be the equivalent of the adult paying child fares, not vice versa!
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With contactless the account can be wiped before a lost / stolen card is blocked. Depending on circumstances eventually at least some might be refunded but there is the problem of both lack of card and empty bank account at the time.
If there is fraud all of it will be refunded. I think a lot of people are unduly concerned about it. You report it promptly, they give you a list of transactions, you tell them which ones weren't you. That's it. If you have phone banking you can stop it very quickly indeed.
It's also an issue with cash, anyway. The majority of card skimming is at ATMs by people fixing devices to the front of them. The only way to completely avoid it is to draw cash over the counter only - very few people do that now.
Using a card in a major store is negligible risk. Maybe perception but potentially a bigger risk at a small trader who can skim the card or access the transaction details. My manager at work, now retired, who also was a good personal friend would only pay cash at his convenience store and never use the local independent filling station. What about street markets, food stalls at events etc where the trader is not known or even if details available unlikely to be recorded then of course become uncontactable. Not to mention taxi & private hire. If paid to the office reading out card details perhaps a bigger risk than using a reader in the vehicle ?
The details might not be used right away but a month or more later.
Without cash how do I leave a Christmas tip for the refuse teams on the bin and for the postie on the letter box ? Buy a load of £5 high street gift cards which can not be used at the pub for a round or towards a meal ?
The railway loves to be seen to be inclusive, but really it isn't. Are you ok with excluding people from travel, especially when passengers are few and far between?
So people don't get their cards or phones stolen then... The same cards and phones that are used for contactless payments?
Stakes are far higher with cash. I've dealt with the fallout following several armed robberies, it's not the cash that's lost that;s the issue, it's the trauma for the staff involved. Take cash off a bus and the driver isn't going to be held up at knife or gun point etc. Trust me, these things happen.
At a personal level of course the loss of a card or phone is traumatic but the maximum loss you will suffer is £50 as long as you have taken reasonable care of your cards(and normally you won't suffer any loss at all) The same can't be said for cash in your wallet in the event of it being stolen.
Yes, I'd agree that will be the way it goes in the end. Why go to the effort of providing a pre-pay debit card scheme of your own when banks will do it for you?
If that did happen, I would expect local shops and banks would handle it - you'd be able to buy a stored-value Visa/Mastercard with £20 on it for £25, say (and top it up at Paypoints and the likes). Which is really no different from the way in some places bus tickets are only sold at newsagents, the operators don't sell them themselves. The very last businesses to completely give up cash will be that sort of independent newsagent/local shop type place. And once they do, cash will be completely dead in London - and I don't see that as all that far off.
Without cash how do I leave a Christmas tip for the refuse teams on the bin and for the postie on the letter box ? Buy a load of £5 high street gift cards which can not be used at the pub for a round or towards a meal ?
They’ll happily take a voucher I’m sure. Most major pub chains offer them. There are ones you can use in multiple places.
Shops will change. It’s cheaper & easier for them not to accept cash. I’d be questioning if I was paying over the odds because their costs were higher.
We simply transfer money to the person buying tea/coffee. It’s not difficult. They don’t want cash, they have no use for it.
I'd like to see it transferred over to contactless somehow. I'm sure it's technically possible, especially if you link a bank card with a TfL account (with the caveat that only you may use said card)
Imagine my surprise when I found out I still had a first generation Oyster card when checking my journey history!
I'd like to see it transferred over to contactless somehow. I'm sure it's technically possible, especially if you link a bank card with a TfL account (with the caveat that only you may use said card)
Imagine my surprise when I found out I still had a first generation Oyster card when checking my journey history!
New Oyster card ? What exactly is that ? I still have an oyster from years ago, I had to pay a £5 deposit for it ! and use it whenever I return to london, is this still valid or do I have to get a new card ?
New Oyster card ? What exactly is that ? I still have an oyster from years ago, I had to pay a £5 deposit for it ! and use it whenever I return to london, is this still valid or do I have to get a new card ?
New Oyster card ? What exactly is that ? I still have an oyster from years ago, I had to pay a £5 deposit for it ! and use it whenever I return to london, is this still valid or do I have to get a new card ?
Not yet, it's a future project (I don't know if it's started yet, it may well not have done). The idea is that Oyster will be transferred into the contactless back-end, with the balance and products no longer stored on the card but instead centrally. This has a number of advantages, most notably that there would no longer be a need to "pick up" any product added to a card, because the card would just be a reference to the database containing the balance/products. The actual cards would also be cheaper as they would be simpler, requiring no more tech than a bank card.
It would probably be feasible to do this and leave existing cards in circulation by changing the software to ask the card what its ID number is rather than what's on it when it's tapped in, and just ignoring what's stored on it.
The railway loves to be seen to be inclusive, but really it isn't. Are you ok with excluding people from travel, especially when passengers are few and far between?
Though some TOCs have - London Midland did and I don't know if WMT have changed that or not. Northern mostly have too.
The difference between the railway and LU is that in the former case the absence of the ability to pay cash means the passenger can board and pay at the first opportunity (which often means a free journey because there isn't an opportunity provided), whereas with LU if you've not paid you're not getting in.
A lot of tourists definitely don’t use public transport for the first time at a major gateway, for example families with loads of bags who arrive at Heathrow and then get a taxi (or Heathrow Express and then a taxi).
Notwithstanding that, I do agree that providing cash facilities at major stations in Zone 1 ought to be sufficient. Southwark cited above for example is a short walk to Waterloo. There could then be guides on the machines directing people to the nearest cash-accepting LU station.
That would have to be along the road as you can't pass through the station without a ticket. I ha e experience of signs starting and then not continuing or if they do, being missed on route.
The policy with regard to non-London-resident children is I agree a bit silly (and really has nothing to do with cash). But an Oyster at adult rate could have been obtained at any Tube station (for now). London bus fares are so cheap that compared with elsewhere in the country it would more be the equivalent of the adult paying child fares, not vice versa!
In many ways, yes, I agree with you. But that is to miss the point. By going cashless, TfL chose to do something that made it necessary to provide workarounds that are to their benefit, and the customer's disbenefit. Cash has a massive advantage - anyone can use it. Any other means of transaction requires special treatment which risks excluding at least some.
I judge the quality of a system by how it treats the edge cases, and on that measure, TfL are a bad fail.
It is infuriating places that only accept cash, although for me that only tends to be barber shops and cafes (both of which probably aren’t used by tourists), as well as stuff that I’ve bought from people online (eg. Facebook marketplace) or the farmer who sells me straw and hay.
While I am not one of them and TfL know precisely who I am, I think the principle that people should be able to travel without being monitored (whether by governments, parents, spouses, employers or rail operators wishing to use their past travel history against them in prosecutions) is one worth defending - even if CCTV makes it increasingly difficult.
That means having some method of paying for travel via untraceable means.
It is infuriating places that only accept cash, although for me that only tends to be barber shops and cafes (both of which probably aren’t used by tourists), as well as stuff that I’ve bought from people online (eg. Facebook marketplace) or the farmer who sells me straw and hay.
I think these low-cost card processing machines that attach to phones and tablets and don't require faffing about setting a complex contract up with a merchant services provider are driving widespread adoption in small businesses.
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It's sort of both. Cash enables "doing things you're not meant to be doing", which can be an upside (e.g. escaping an abusive relationship) but also a downside as it enables crime. If it went away completely, a lot of crime would not be possible any more because it would be incredibly easy to catch people e.g. purchasing illegal drugs.
I think these low-cost card processing machines that attach to phones and tablets and don't require faffing about setting a complex contract up with a merchant services provider are driving widespread adoption in small businesses.
That's something Covid has accelerated. A few places that I've frequented which used to be card/cash only have introduced card payments using things like Square to avoid contact.
It's sort of both. Cash enables "doing things you're not meant to be doing", which can be an upside (e.g. escaping an abusive relationship) but also a downside as it enables crime. If it went away completely, a lot of crime would not be possible any more because it would be incredibly easy to catch people e.g. purchasing illegal drugs.
That's ridiculously naïve, criminal markets will adapt as long as there's money to be made. They already have with bitcoin for online criminality, if cash was eliminated it would be replaced by alternative means for criminal behaviour and the rest of us will be left with an inability to do anything without being automatically tracked/monitored/logged by the likes of GCHQ.
That's ridiculously naïve, criminal markets will adapt as long as there's money to be made. They already have with bitcoin for online criminality, if cash was eliminated it would be replaced by alternative means for criminal behaviour and the rest of us will be left with an inability to do anything without being automatically tracked/monitored/logged by the likes of GCHQ.
I'm not quite sure why you think GCHQ is in the remotest bit interested in you. If (hypothetically) you think they might be, then you might want to reconsider what you're doing.
That's ridiculously naïve, criminal markets will adapt as long as there's money to be made. They already have with bitcoin for online criminality, if cash was eliminated it would be replaced by alternative means for criminal behaviour and the rest of us will be left with an inability to do anything without being automatically tracked/monitored/logged by the likes of GCHQ.
Unless Bitcoin start to exist in physical form then there will always be a traceable record, maybe difficult to trace but there has to be a waek link somewhere.
I think these low-cost card processing machines that attach to phones and tablets and don't require faffing about setting a complex contract up with a merchant services provider are driving widespread adoption in small businesses.
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How secure are these ? I wonder how many people would not pick up a low value fraudulent payment put through a month or so after the genuine one ?
Up to last March I had very few payments as I took out a lump of cash at either a bank, building society or major supermarket cash point so quick to check all payments. For the former two whenever possible I used a machine inside the branch. Now numerous payments and ( hopefully ) in another 4 or so months when out and about again far more at one-off places rather than mostly regular shops.
I'm not quite sure why you think GCHQ is in the remotest bit interested in you. If (hypothetically) you think they might be, then you might want to reconsider what you're doing.
Whether GCHQ, police or any other authority do not overlook an error or mistaken identity on their part. CCTV is unavoidable but the fewer links between you and a location or event the better.
Substantially less prone to fraud than a cashpoint.
In any case, don't you get your money back on any fraudulent card transactions? I wish the best of luck to anyone who calls their bank after they lose their wallet or get pickpocketed and ask for the money they had in notes paid back into their account.
I think these low-cost card processing machines that attach to phones and tablets and don't require faffing about setting a complex contract up with a merchant services provider are driving widespread adoption in small businesses.
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very, It would only take one customer to spot one dodgy transaction for a business to be in it deep, it would not be like a crook swiping your card when you were not aware of it happening.
Secure enough (a phrase people have difficulty with, but remember cash is not 100% secure - you can lose it, or someone can put a knife to your throat and steal it).
If you're going to take the risk of engaging in card fraud, just doing occasional low value payments isn't going to pay for you, so nobody does this. It is common for one or two low value payments to be done before they start doing big ones, as a test run, and it's handy if you notice them via something like Monzo as you can then stop the card very quickly and make the process of resolution easier for both yourself and the bank, but you will certainly notice the first big one, and it's fairly likely the bank will notice it before you do.
Whether GCHQ, police or any other authority do not overlook an error or mistaken identity on their part. CCTV is unavoidable but the fewer links between you and a location or event the better.
In any case, don't you get your money back on any fraudulent card transactions? I wish the best of luck to anyone who calls their bank after they lose their wallet or get pickpocketed and ask for the money they had in notes paid back into their account.
Yes. I've had a few instances of card fraud over the years (much more difficult now because cards are more secure) and in all cases all fraudulent payments have been fully refunded, generally pretty promptly, and on a couple of occasions it was the bank that noticed first and phoned me to say they'd already stopped the card.
you will certainly notice the first big one, and it's fairly likely the bank will notice it before you do.
Yes. I've had a few instances of card fraud over the years (much more difficult now because cards are more secure) and in all cases all fraudulent payments have been fully refunded, generally pretty promptly, and on a couple of occasions it was the bank that noticed first and phoned me to say they'd already stopped the card.
The bank have always noticed before me. Once they rang me to say my card had been cloned so would be sending me a new one. No fraudulent transactions went through my account, so any attempts were stopped before that.
Another time I came out of work to find 24 missed calls from the bank on my phone! They wanted to know where I was as there were “substantial” transactions being attempted in China, I confirmed I was in the UK & that was that.
I wonder why anyone wants to pay by cash. Seems rather dodgy these days to insist on cash payment. If anyone wants to pay cash it sets alarm bells ringing as to what they are trying to hide. Apart from the paranoid not wanting to be tracked by MI5 (like they aren’t busy enough without worrying why I was in Poundland) I can’t really see what the problem is with not having cash payments as an option.
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