Aviation Discussion

[Bald Rick]

I’ve done it three times, twice in one go. Definitely prefer it that way compared to a 24 hour (or less) stop.

I would only stop off en route if going to visit the city concerned for a few days.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Somewhat sad though inevitable news last weekend was American Airlines' announcement that it will not be resuming its Philadelphia-Manchester route. That means that there are currently no plans for any regularly scheduled trans-Atlantic operations from Manchester by any US based airline. Another signpost along the Covid highway of gloom.

 

[FQTV]

Incredibly difficult to make money on the Kangaroo route due to massive amount of competition. Pre-covid, it wasn't unheard of the airlines like China Southern, China Eastern and Vietnam Airlines to offer the route return for the £400 mark. No way BA or Qantas can compete at those levels. It's part of the reason why BA only have the one daily flight to Sydney and Qantas the one from Sydney and one Perth. Compare that to the 90s when all major Oz cities were connected to London. Air NZ recently cancelled their Auckland to London route too.


Back in the day, a connection between Gatwick and Heathrow actually included a bus transfer between the two. You wouldn't touch your luggage either as BA had a van that ran between the two carrying luggage. I want to say it ended some time after 9/11.
Numbers are quite small, but people definitely do do it. I imagine a fair few do it inadvertently on top of that as well not realising they have to change airports. It's the same in Paris and Berlin amongst many others.

British Airways itself used to operate scheduled service between Heathrow and Gatwick, using Sikorsky S61N helicopters. They ran from 1978 to 1986 as the Airlink service.

My preferred route would probably be transiting through Dubai and making use of its airside transit hotel. £160 is worth it for a double or twin room that allows you to break your journey without passing through immigration.

In recent times, you would be looking at £80 at the Le Meridien on Airport Road. However, with only a seven hour flight from the UK, with a three or four hour time difference, most folks would rather carry straight on and deal with one lot of fatigue and one time difference than complicate matters en route - or enjoy a proper stopover to take advantage of the local attractions.

It's a tough one. Part of me would want to get the journey over and done with and part of me have a break in the middle. £160 is madness though. If you stop off in HCMC or Hanoi, you could hire a Mercedes E-Class to take you to stay in the most luxurious 5 star hotel in town and get a nice spa treatment for less.

I don't get the thing some have with Emirates. Only flown them once and found them mediocre. You can get better service on South East Asian airlines. I think Dubai is a bit close to us as well. I'd rather stop off closer to Oz. Perhaps in Singapore or Hong Kong.

I agree. In many ways, Emirates Airline is a bigger version of Virgin in that its customer profile tends to be less frequently-travelling than other carriers’. This affects all sorts of perceptions, including (for example) the first experience of anything or much being ‘free’ on board. Emirates Airline’s marketing spend has been incredibly high, and continues to be, which again drives perception. Even now, you only have to look at the ‘Dubai is Open’ campaign to see how much they’re spending, and how high the levels of engagement are. The fact that, to a greater or lesser extent, it’s not actually true, is very much in line with their traditional comms strategy.....

I’ve done it three times, twice in one go. Definitely prefer it that way compared to a 24 hour (or less) stop.

I would only stop off en route if going to visit the city concerned for a few days.

Absolutely - and it’s not really affected by class of travel. I’ve done Economy, Business and First Class (though not Premium Economy) sometimes multiple times a year through to Oz and NZ, and really, the choice is between the brutal but clean fight on through, or break for at least a few days if you do. Any connections over about six hours and under about twenty four are just disruptive to the corpus.

Somewhat sad though inevitable news last weekend was American Airlines' announcement that it will not be resuming its Philadelphia-Manchester route. That means that there are currently no plans for any regularly scheduled trans-Atlantic operations from Manchester by any US based airline. Another signpost along the Covid highway of gloom.

This route was, of course, a US Airways inheritance by American, using the former’s older A330s. I suspect that it was only moderately viable pre-Covid - and I further suspect that even then they’d have got better yields refitting the cabin with a larger Business/First proportion and sending the aircraft to Honolulu or Cabo rather than Ringway.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

This route was, of course, a US Airways inheritance by American, using the former’s older A330s. I suspect that it was only moderately viable pre-Covid - and I further suspect that even then they’d have got better yields refitting the cabin with a larger Business/First proportion and sending the aircraft to Honolulu or Cabo rather than Ringway.

Actually it was reckoned to be a decent performer pre-Covid thanks to s decent balance between business and leisure traffic, helped by American's policy of concentrating trans-Atlantic hubbing at Philadelphia. However it does appear that the expectation of all the big US3 is that overall levels of long-haul traffic will recover on Latin-American routes much more quickly than European ones. Add in American's apparent willingness to route UK traffic solely via Heathrow and the cancellation is easy to understand. Of course Aer Lingus is due to start direct Manchester-US flights next summer providing an alternative IAG/One World option. In general terms it would seem financial success on US routes from Manchester depends on airlines having a sufficiently low cost base ie not the traditional players. I do wonder whether in the long term jetBlue will be the airline to return a US presence at Ringway.

 

[Butts]

Surreal experience yesterday flying Easyjet down from Edinburgh to Birmingham on an A320 with only 15 other passengers.

They had to get volunteers to sit in the unoccupied Exit Rows.

4 cabin crew and 16 passengers !!

Why did we take off and fly up to the Forth Bridges and then down towards Newcastle before crossing over to Manchester and onto Birmingham.

Outrageously it took 55 mins rather than the normal 45 mins.

 

[najaB]

Why did we take off and fly up to the Forth Bridges and then down towards Newcastle before crossing over to Manchester and onto Birmingham.

Because that's the way you were routed. End of discussion.

 

[Butts]

Because that's the way you were routed. End of discussion.

At least I made it out !!!

No Police about and no one checking anything at the Airport regarding the cross border travel regs.

Wondering how populated my return flight will be on Sunday 27th, certainly not going to pay for a seat in advance !!

 

[berneyarms]

Why did we take off and fly up to the Forth Bridges and then down towards Newcastle before crossing over to Manchester and onto Birmingham.

The direction that aircraft take off & land is dictated by the prevailing wind - aircraft take off and land into the wind.

Clearly the wind was coming from the north or northeast.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They had to get volunteers to sit in the unoccupied Exit Rows.

Actually very common, you often get quieter flights with one or more of the 4 empty.

Ryanair just leave them empty, I guess Irish regs are different.

 

[eoff]

Surreal experience yesterday flying Easyjet down from Edinburgh to Birmingham on an A320 with only 15 other passengers.

They had to get volunteers to sit in the unoccupied Exit Rows.

4 cabin crew and 16 passengers !!

Why did we take off and fly up to the Forth Bridges and then down towards Newcastle before crossing over to Manchester and onto Birmingham.

Outrageously it took 55 mins rather than the normal 45 mins.

I don't think I have ever gone that route, a departure to the east tends to loop back north of the airfield and then go south.

Which flight was this? I can't find a matching flight on Flightradar24.

 

[Butts]

I don't think I have ever gone that route, a departure to the east tends to loop back north of the airfield and then go south.

Which flight was this? I can't find a matching flight on Flightradar24.

EZY503 - it's probably my geographical ineptitude and muddling what the pilot said !!

 

[TravelDream]

British Airways itself used to operate scheduled service between Heathrow and Gatwick, using Sikorsky S61N helicopters. They ran from 1978 to 1986 as the Airlink service.

A bit before my time, but I had heard if it.
Of course things were very different back in the day before the EU-USA open skies agreement when flights to the US were split between Heathrow and Gatwick.

On Emirates, it must be the marketing that gives it the prestige. Their 777 hard product is poor in both cabins at 2-3-2 in business and 3-4-3 in cattle class when many of their competitors have 1-2-1 (admittedly at an angle) and 3-3-3.
The entertainment system is excellent and food/drink are decent, but otherwise they're nothing special.

Surreal experience yesterday flying Easyjet down from Edinburgh to Birmingham on an A320 with only 15 other passengers.

They had to get volunteers to sit in the unoccupied Exit Rows.

4 cabin crew and 16 passengers !!

Why did we take off and fly up to the Forth Bridges and then down towards Newcastle before crossing over to Manchester and onto Birmingham.

Outrageously it took 55 mins rather than the normal 45 mins.

I once was moved to the emergency exits flying from the UK to Krakow on easyjet. I suffer with such social anxiety at times, I managed to sit through the entire safety briefing in Polish as the guy spoke to me 1-to-1.
Quiet flights have been pretty common this year, though I have been on several that were fully packed.


Not sure what the quietest flight people here have been on. I once flew TUI (thomsonfly back then I believe) and was one of four passengers onboard. I think that's pretty common on the first/last flight of the season going in the opposite direction to most. I also flew Aeroflot from Moscow to Dublin once and there were nine pax onboard.
For long-haul, I think it was Qatar on a 787-8 with just 44 passengers (I asked haha).

 

[berneyarms]

EZY503 - it's probably my geographical ineptitude and muddling what the pilot said !!

Looking up U2503 on FR24, it turned left after take off and then looped south.

Nowhere near Newcastle.

 

[TravelDream]

The direction that aircraft take off & land is dictated by the prevailing wind - aircraft take off and land into the wind.

Clearly the wind was coming from the north or northeast.

Usually, but not always. Modern commercial aircraft can typically take-off with tailwinds of up to 10-15 knots. It's far from ideal, but can happen for numerous reasons.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Quietest long-haul I've been on is a BA 747 back from Kuala Lumpur, it was basically a row of either 3 or 4 seats per person - the world's first flat beds in economy!

I've also been on a Thai 777 on a domestic with basically our coach tour's passengers and hardly anyone else - about 30 people and their luggage and a bit of fuel - it went like absolute stink.

 

[eoff]

I can remember a few UK to USA flights when I started flying where you could occupy the full middle row. Not sure of plane type.

 

[najaB]

Their 777 hard product is poor in both cabins at 2-3-2 in business and 3-4-3 in cattle class when many of their competitors have 1-2-1 (admittedly at an angle) and 3-3-3.

777s with 3-3-3 in economy are fast becoming a rare thing.

Quietest long-haul I've been on is a BA 747 back from Kuala Lumpur, it was basically a row of either 3 or 4 seats per person - the world's first flat beds in economy!

Mine would be either a BA A380 from SFO to LHR in February this year where we basically had a whole row of premium economy per person, or a BA 772 from LHR to BGI in October where there were 71 people total in economy+premium economy.

 

[Butts]

Looking up U2503 on FR24, it turned left after take off and then looped south.

Nowhere near Newcastle.

Well blame the Pilot, he said we were 70 miles South of Newcastle

 

[eoff]

I was once on a plane that failed to land twice at Glasgow due to fog. The pilot said they would make one more attempt. We landed and the cabin crew welcomed us to Glasgow. I was a bit confused by the British Aerospace sign and shortly afterwards there was a correction to say we were at Prestwick. Pretty dead so early in the morning as I think its hayday was long gone.

 

[TravelDream]

777s with 3-3-3 in economy are fast becoming a rare thing.

Today, yes that is right. However, when Emirates introduced the 777 with 3-4-3, it was very rare indeed. At that time most European airlines like BA and basically all East Asian (Cathay, Malaysian, Thai, Singapore, JAL etc) were 3-3-3. A few carriers (like United) were 2-5-2 and even fewer (Just ANA I think) were 2-4-3.
The newer generation 777X is actually wider than the 'older' 777 so 3-4-3 is the designed standard.

The situation on the 787 is 100% different to the 777. Whilst it was initially designed as 2-4-2, every single airline apart from ANA has it in 3-3-3 config.

Mind you, give me an Airbus anyday.

 

[Bald Rick]

Not sure what the quietest flight people here have been on. I once flew TUI (thomsonfly back then I believe) and was one of four passengers onboard. I think that's pretty common on the first/last flight of the season going in the opposite direction to most. I also flew Aeroflot from Moscow to Dublin once and there were nine pax onboard.

Me and Mrs BR were two of about a dozen passengers flying from Nadi (Fiji) to LAX on an Air Pacific 747. There had been a tropical storm the day of the flight, and most of the island was flooded, and the roads impassable. Our decision to stay in a hotel by the airport paid dividends - very few intending passnegers could actually get to the airport.

However they still didn’t upgrade us. We did have a whole economy cabin to ourselves though. The landing at LAX was incredible. We were so light we touched down at, I think, 110kts and it was imperceptible.

 

[WestCoast]

Actually very common, you often get quieter flights with one or more of the 4 empty.

Ryanair just leave them empty, I guess Irish regs are different.

There‘s minor differences between the operators safety procedures so I wonder who dictates what. For instance, Ryanair always puts the seatbelt signs on when one of the pilots leave the flight deck but I’ve not noticed that elsewhere with other European airlines. I’ve found Jet2 the most strict of all the UK operators, as I recall they still don’t allow headphones or electronic devices during take off/landing or at least that was the case when I flew them in late 2018. Caught me off guard because I’ve not been asked to do that in years. EasyJet seem to have a strange policy that if the plane is doing an (Auto) landing in poor visibility they ask devices to be switched off, but otherwise not.

 

[Bald Rick]

Well blame the Pilot, he said we were 70 miles South of Newcastle

And you were, near enough. Just east of Lancaster!

 

[TheBigD]

...Not sure what the quietest flight people here have been on....

Panama City to Houston with United Airlines. Just 8 of us in board. No disruption or weather related just no one on it! Staff were very generous with the free tea!

The onward flight from Houston to Heathrow was the complete opposite. United we're offering $800 each to those willing to be bumped off. It was just before the passenger was forcibly removed from an overbooked United flight that made the headlines around the world

 

[berneyarms]

A bit before my time, but I had heard if it.
Of course things were very different back in the day before the EU-USA open skies agreement when flights to the US were split between Heathrow and Gatwick.

On Emirates, it must be the marketing that gives it the prestige. Their 777 hard product is poor in both cabins at 2-3-2 in business and 3-4-3 in cattle class when many of their competitors have 1-2-1 (admittedly at an angle) and 3-3-3.
The entertainment system is excellent and food/drink are decent, but otherwise they're nothing special.



I once was moved to the emergency exits flying from the UK to Krakow on easyjet. I suffer with such social anxiety at times, I managed to sit through the entire safety briefing in Polish as the guy spoke to me 1-to-1.
Quiet flights have been pretty common this year, though I have been on several that were fully packed.


Not sure what the quietest flight people here have been on. I once flew TUI (thomsonfly back then I believe) and was one of four passengers onboard. I think that's pretty common on the first/last flight of the season going in the opposite direction to most. I also flew Aeroflot from Moscow to Dublin once and there were nine pax onboard.
For long-haul, I think it was Qatar on a 787-8 with just 44 passengers (I asked haha).

My quietest flight was from Las Vegas to Orange County five days after 9/11 - 3 pax on a B737!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

And you were, near enough. Just east of Lancaster!

Very true; it's easy to forget that the country is tipped up slightly compared to the normal map view. Edinburgh is further west than Carlisle!

For @Butts's benefit, here's the link to a replay of the actual route taken - which did indeed loop round the Forth Bridges:

Live Flight Tracker - Real-Time Flight Tracker Map | Flightradar24

The world’s most popular flight tracker. Track planes in real-time on our flight tracker map and get up-to-date flight status & airport information.

www.flightradar24.com

 

[Speed43125]

On a recent redeye Qatar 787 DOH to EDI, grand total of 25 passengers onboard, most in the premium cabins, had no more than about 12 in economy, still managed to pull up at the gate late though!

Very true; it's easy to forget that the country is tipped up slightly compared to the normal map view. Edinburgh is further west than Carlisle!

As well as liverpool!

 

[Chester1]

Actually it was reckoned to be a decent performer pre-Covid thanks to s decent balance between business and leisure traffic, helped by American's policy of concentrating trans-Atlantic hubbing at Philadelphia. However it does appear that the expectation of all the big US3 is that overall levels of long-haul traffic will recover on Latin-American routes much more quickly than European ones. Add in American's apparent willingness to route UK traffic solely via Heathrow and the cancellation is easy to understand. Of course Aer Lingus is due to start direct Manchester-US flights next summer providing an alternative IAG/One World option. In general terms it would seem financial success on US routes from Manchester depends on airlines having a sufficiently low cost base ie not the traditional players. I do wonder whether in the long term jetBlue will be the airline to return a US presence at Ringway.

Aer Lingus service is subject to being granted an exemption from US department of Transport. IAG is majority owned by EU citizens in order to comply with EU law. Only companies that are majority owned by British or American shareholders have automatic right to use the US-UK Air Services Agreement. Aer Lingus has setup a UK subsidiary and applied for an exemption from this requirement to launch the Manchester service. I think BA is covered by grandfather rights.

In the long term Aer Lingus might be better tackling the UK-US market by extending its long haul Dublin services to UK using 5th freedom rights. It could sell US pre clearance in Dublin as an advantage and it wouldn't need to meet US or UK ownership requirements. Pre covid it had plenty of Dublin - US flights and Dublin - UK flights. It should be able to link some together.

 

[najaB]

It could sell US pre clearance in Dublin...

Aren't the pre-clearance facilities at Shannon?

 

[Elwyn]

Aren't the pre-clearance facilities at Shannon?

They are at Dublin and Shannon.