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Caledonian Sleeper

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Mag_seven

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snakeeyes

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Is the seated coach on operation, I tried booking a seat from Inverness to London and it says seats unavailable.
 
xotGD

xotGD

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With the reduction in services, have any of the loco fleet been put into storage or are they all still taking their turns on the sleepers?
 
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theironroad

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Kite159 said:
Is it bad to think Serco might try and not bring it back, instead convert it into another lounge car to increase the appeal to those who can afford the expensive berth fares.
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The seats are probably the only part of the sleeper offering that are remotely affordable for most people.

Get rid of those and the whole operation becomes more elitist and only for the well off and possibly the once in a lifetime trip tourist.

If it's not a lifeline service, then surely the subsidies provided by (I assume) both governments should be called into question.
 
MrEd

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Kite159 said:
Is it bad to think Serco might try and not bring it back, instead convert it into another lounge car to increase the appeal to those who can afford the expensive berth fares.
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That will never happen. The seated coach is a franchise requirement in any case. Also, I’m not sure what the point of a second lounge car would be. On some of the routes, e.g. midweek Aberdeen portion southbound, there‘s no guarantee that you’ll fill one lounge car, let alone two. In any case, I’m not sure that on-board catering will be a reliable source of income in 2021- no one knows when it will be safe to reopen the lounge cars or even if the pre-Covid catering operation is deliverable or financially viable in a post-Covid world. I do expect changes in this area even when lounge cars do reopen- what those are remain to be seen. It’s probably six months, at least, before we are likely to see any return of on-train catering facilities beyond the pre-packed breakfasts. I suspect that the seated coach will be reinstated before this- but as has been suggested above, no one knows when this will be.

theironroad said:
The seats are probably the only part of the sleeper offering that are remotely affordable for most people.

Get rid of those and the whole operation becomes more elitist and only for the well off and possibly the once in a lifetime trip tourist.

If it's not a lifeline service, then surely the subsidies provided by (I assume) both governments should be called into question.
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Precisely. I would add that this is why CS probably need to think carefully about their target market and pricing structure this coming year, and how their service can be seen to make a genuine contribution to Scotland’s transport infrastructure.
 
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Butts

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Bletchleyite said:
I would be astonished if that happened.
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I'd be even more astonished if the second car was designated as a smoking one in the finest traditions of the Railway.

What is all this nonsense about being "safe" to open the Lounge Cars, judging by the anecdotal evidence of lack of passengers social distancing would not be a problem.

Have any of these bods been on an Aircraft recently ?

In a far more confined environment they seem to be able to provide a far more enhanced service at 27,000 feet than is possible at sea level.
 
MrEd

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Butts said:
I'd be even more astonished if the second car was designated as a smoking one in the finest traditions of the Railway.

What is all this nonsense about being "safe" to open the Lounge Cars, judging by the anecdotal evidence of lack of passengers social distancing would not be a problem.

Have any of these bods been on an Aircraft recently ?

In a far more confined environment they seem to be able to provide a far more enhanced service at 27,000 feet than is possible at sea level.
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It’s not so much about passengers as staff (although social distancing is very difficult in a Mk5 lounge car unless you keep the passengers so far apart that the capacity is minute and the lounge car simply isn’t worth running*)- the staff also need to distance from each other physically, and now that the new stock is without attendants’ ‘pantries’, the only place in which the staff can have a socially distanced rest area is in the lounge car seating (and possibly the seated coach). There is no way that staff and passengers could share this area in the current situation. Another issue is that physical distancing is required in kitchens too, rendering it very hard for the catering service to be provided effectively (as the current lounge cars are generally designed for two persons to run them).

I‘m sure someone who works for CS will confirm this, and probably other reasons why the lounge car cannot operate at this time. I am very sure that there are very good reasons why it can’t operate. After all, it’s marketed as a significant attraction of the service- so if there was any way in which it could have been operated in a Covid-safe way for the tourists in late summer, I’m sure CS would have opened it.

*Remember that under normal circumstances, it is generally expected that solo travellers/couples will share those booth tables with strangers. That, of course, is impossible in Covid times, so the capacity is significantly reduced. Then, when entire bays of seats have to be marked ‘out of use’ (or screens installed) to comply with the two-metre rule, it becomes more trouble than it is worth to operate. Also, who really wants to go to the lounge car to sit away from everyone else behind a screen? That really isn’t what the lounge car is about, and definitely not the experience that CS want people to have.
 
Butts

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MrEd said:
It’s not so much about passengers as staff (although social distancing is very difficult in a Mk5 lounge car unless you keep the passengers so far apart that the capacity is minute and the lounge car simply isn’t worth running*)- the staff also need to distance from each other physically, and now that the new stock is without attendants’ ‘pantries’, the only place in which the staff can have a socially distanced rest area is in the lounge car seating (and possibly the seated coach). There is no way that staff and passengers could share this area in the current situation. Another issue is that physical distancing is required in kitchens too, rendering it very hard for the catering service to be provided effectively (as the current lounge cars are generally designed for two persons to run them).

I‘m sure someone who works for CS will confirm this, and probably other reasons why the lounge car cannot operate at this time. I am very sure that there are very good reasons why it can’t operate. After all, it’s marketed as a significant attraction of the service- so if there was any way in which it could have been operated in a Covid-safe way for the tourists in late summer, I’m sure CS would have opened it.

*Remember that under normal circumstances, it is generally expected that solo travellers/couples will share those booth tables with strangers. That, of course, is impossible in Covid times, so the capacity is significantly reduced. Then, when entire bays of seats have to be marked ‘out of use’ (or screens installed) to comply with the two-metre rule, it becomes more trouble than it is worth to operate. Also, who really wants to go to the lounge car to sit away from everyone else behind a screen? That really isn’t what the lounge car is about, and definitely not the experience that CS want people to have.
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That's all very commendable and sounds plausible.

However you have completely swerved the Aircraft analogy.

If they can do it safely in a more restrictive environment on a plane why not on a train ?
 
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alistairlees

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The seated car contains the train management system; without the seated car, the train can't run at all. To avoid that risk arising from Covid-19 contamination, the seats are taken out of use.
 
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jthjth

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Butts said:
That's all very commendable and sounds plausible.

However you have completely swerved the Aircraft analogy.

If they can do it safely in a more restrictive environment on a plane why not on a train ?
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What makes you think that it is being done safely on a plane? There’s a world of difference between being claimed to be be safe and actually being safe.
 
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route101

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Hope the seated coach stays, the budget alternative is an overnight coach with next to no space.
 
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williamn

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I think the main difference between train and plane is that on a plane the air is filtered by hospital-grade filters and is replaced several times each hour - this presumably isn't true of the train. Ironically the old coaches with opening vestibule windows would probably offer superior air circulation/refreshment.
 
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Mogz

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Makes you long for the days of the £19 “Bargain Berths”.

What is the very cheapest that a berth can be had for under their dynamic pricing structure these days?
 
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theironroad

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Mogz said:
Makes you long for the days of the £19 “Bargain Berths”.

What is the very cheapest that a berth can be had for under their dynamic pricing structure these days?
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I think, but happy to be corrected by people who use it more regularly but solo occupancy ( not possible to share with strangers anymore) of a classic berth (no ensuite or shower) is about £170

Bargain berths etc would definitely help matters and broaden the range of people who can afford it but that's possibly not what serco want to do.
 
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alistairlees

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theironroad said:
I think, but happy to be corrected by people who use it more regularly but solo occupancy ( not possible to share with strangers anymore) of a classic berth (no ensuite or shower) is about £170

Bargain berths etc would definitely help matters and broaden the range of people who can afford it but that's possibly not what serco want to do.
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For one person in Classic the fares (for London to Inverness) generally are:
- £125 on Sundays to Wednesdays
- £170 on Thursdays and Fridays

For two people sharing in Classic the fares (for London to Inverness) generally are:
- £160 (£80pp) on Sundays to Wednesdays
- £200 (£100pp) on Thursdays and Fridays

These are the prices until roughly mid-March, after which they go up. They are also higher during the half-term week (mid-February).

These prices are all for "flexi", rather than "fixed" products, which allow refunds / changes.

The £125 fare is the lowest tier of flexi fare.
 
MrEd

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theironroad said:
I think, but happy to be corrected by people who use it more regularly but solo occupancy ( not possible to share with strangers anymore) of a classic berth (no ensuite or shower) is about £170

Bargain berths etc would definitely help matters and broaden the range of people who can afford it but that's possibly not what serco want to do.
Click to expand...
It depends. Serco took the view that before the pandemic hit, it was possible to fill the train with berth passengers paying full price. However, it may be the case that Serco have to try some different strategies to fill the train in a post-Covid world, and one of those might be to offer some more competitive fares which encourage leisure travel at off-peak times (I.e. on midweek nights, particularly on the otherwise less well used Aberdeen and Glasgow sections), by those who would otherwise not be able to afford the sleeper.
 
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theironroad

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alistairlees said:
For one person in Classic the fares (for London to Inverness) generally are:
- £125 on Sundays to Wednesdays
- £170 on Thursdays and Fridays

For two people sharing in Classic the fares (for London to Inverness) generally are:
- £160 (£80pp) on Sundays to Wednesdays
- £200 (£100pp) on Thursdays and Fridays

These are the prices until roughly mid-March, after which they go up. They are also higher during the half-term week (mid-February).

These prices are all for "flexi", rather than "fixed" products, which allow refunds / changes.

The £125 fare is the lowest tier of flexi fare.
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That's more useful than my guess!

MrEd said:
It depends. Serco took the view that before the pandemic hit, it was possible to fill the train with berth passengers paying full price. However, it may be the case that Serco have to try some different strategies to fill the train in a post-Covid world, and one of those might be to offer some more competitive fares which encourage leisure travel at off-peak times (I.e. on midweek nights, particularly on the otherwise less well used Aberdeen and Glasgow sections), by those who would otherwise not be able to afford the sleeper.
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Yes, I guess most tocs will reconsider their marketing and how to fill seats /berths . Seats aside, the sleeper has a massive advantage in that cabins are private and covid secure if people are still reluctant to travel. Even before covid, Aberdeen was being hit economically with the hit to the oil economy, so who wonders whether Aberdeen will be dropped by the sleeper for a long while.
 
MrEd

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theironroad said:
That's more useful than my guess!


Yes, I guess most tocs will reconsider their marketing and how to fill seats /berths . Seats aside, the sleeper has a massive advantage in that cabins are private and covid secure if people are still reluctant to travel. Even before covid, Aberdeen was being hit economically with the hit to the oil economy, so who wonders whether Aberdeen will be dropped by the sleeper for a long while.
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I’d be very surprised if the Aberdeen portion continued for long in its present form unless some seriously competitive fares were offered (which competed far better with airlines and day train services). The demand for it is very low all year round compared with Inverness and Fort William and it also doesn’t sit well with Serco’s marketing which makes the wealthy tourist the target market- lovely though Dundee, Aberdeen and that part of the east coast between them are, they’re not a massive tourist draw (particularly not at 7.30am on a cold, damp winter’s morning) and I can’t imagine business travel to Aberdeen being a healthy market in the short to medium term.
 
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Bletchleyite

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MrEd said:
I’d be very surprised if the Aberdeen portion continued for long in its present form unless some seriously competitive fares were offered (which competed far better with airlines and day train services). The demand for it is very low all year round compared with Inverness and Fort William and it also doesn’t sit well with Serco’s marketing which makes the wealthy tourist the target market- lovely though Dundee, Aberdeen and that part of the east coast between them are, they’re not a massive tourist draw (particularly not at 7.30am on a cold, damp winter’s morning) and I can’t imagine business travel to Aberdeen being a healthy market in the short to medium term.
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Removing the Aberdeen (how things change; it was the FW BR wanted to kill!) would also allow the Highlander operation to be vastly simplified, with FW seats and lounge operating through.
 
BRX

BRX

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alistairlees said:
The seated car contains the train management system; without the seated car, the train can't run at all. To avoid that risk arising from Covid-19 contamination, the seats are taken out of use.
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What exactly does "covid-19 contamination" mean? It doesn't seem to be something that affects any other transport operator and appears to be unique to CS... Unless buses and trains around the UK are routinely taken out of service for this reason and I'm just not aware of it.
 
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