When using an advance ticket, do you have to use it EXACTLY as specified....

[Flamingo]

In my view, PF's are only really workable when the system is fully barriered, with ticket buying facilities available at the vast majority of stations for most of the traffic day. It isn't much of a deterrent if the chances of being caught are negligible, but prosecution for fare evasion (jumping barriers to access the trains) might be a better one!

In that scenario, PF's are not required, IMHO. They are supposed to be a deterrent. If everywhere is barriered, then access is controlled, and the deterrent is not needed.

 

[Anvil1984]

In my view, PF's are only really workable when the system is fully barriered, with ticket buying facilities available at the vast majority of stations for most of the traffic day. It isn't much of a deterrent if the chances of being caught are negligible, but prosecution for fare evasion (jumping barriers to access the trains) might be a better one!

In that scenario, PF's are not required, IMHO. They are supposed to be a deterrent. If everywhere is barriered, then access is controlled, and the deterrent is not needed.

You'd think not wouldn't you, but what about adults travelling on kids tickets, people who "forget" railcards travelling on railcard discounted tickets, ok they are not what PFs are intended for but they are still things that can slip through a barrier

 

[Ferret]

You'd think not wouldn't you, but what about adults travelling on kids tickets, people who "forget" railcards travelling on railcard discounted tickets, ok they are not what PFs are intended for but they are still things that can slip through a barrier

Adults travelling on Child tickets really should be dealt with by TIR/MG11 - that's a deliberate attempt to defraud the railway.

 

[Flamingo]

Well, barriers are always manned, and they flag up if a child ticket is inserted. Anyway, on-train inspection flag those up, and they are usually done on my patch by Guards (who can't issue PF's), not RPI's.

 

[Anvil1984]

True but it was more of a comeback saying that we don't need the deterrent if access is controlled by barriers. barriers only remove some of the problems not all of them. The barriers in the North East area (Newcastle, Darlington etc) are in non PF zones and the staff there don't look for which people are on which tickets and are basically there to let people out if they cant get out themselves

 

[Flamingo]

True but it was more of a comeback saying that we don't need the deterrent if access is controlled by barriers. barriers only remove some of the problems not all of them

No, it was more that Greenback was saying that PF's would work better if more barriers were in place. In my opinion, if more barriers were in place, then PF's may not be required as a deterrent. Two sides to it.

 

[4SRKT]

No, most of the journeys I make are advance fares, and I would be put off from travelling if there weren't any. Yes I may take up a seat that someone else wants who has a season ticket or a normal ticket, but I'm not too bothered about that.

OTOH the only reason that you and I and other people who understand how the system works can take as much advantage of advance fares as we do, is because the TOCs gain other revenue from outrageously high prices for non-advance tickets (and it would seem from PFs).

While I like advance fares because I regard it as a form of sport to get the largest distance covered at the lowest cost, the possibility for me to do this is effectively being cross-subsidised by people who don't know what they're doing or have to travel at short notice.

Likewise with fare splitting. If everyone was as knowledgeable about fare splitting as people on this forum, the TOCs' revenue would nosedive, and fares overall would have to make more sense. The whole fare structure as it stands depends absolutely on the majority of people not being able to understand it and navigate around it. Most of us here travel by train a lot, and probably most of us don't have privs. There is a perception among the public that rail fares are very high. I don't really recognise this complaint because I'm an expert in paying as little as possible without cheating. I couldn't afford to travel as much as I do if I did pay the sort of fares that get quoted, but I'm realistic enough to know that I can only do this because other people do pay 'em!

 

[Anvil1984]

No, it was more that Greenback was saying that PF's would work better if more barriers were in place. In my opinion, if more barriers were in place, then PF's may not be required as a deterrent. Two sides to it.

You'll just see an increase in TIs/MG11s which I'm sure the prosecutions departments will love, also not all PFs refer to travelling without a ticket remember travel in First Class accommodation with a Standard ticket is also a PF offence

 

[Ferret]

True but it was more of a comeback saying that we don't need the deterrent if access is controlled by barriers. barriers only remove some of the problems not all of them. The barriers in the North East area (Newcastle, Darlington etc) are in non PF zones and the staff there don't look for which people are on which tickets and are basically there to let people out if they cant get out themselves

Barriers don't solve everything though - how do they stop somebody travelling A-F with a CDS from A-B and a CDS from D-F but no ticket from B-D?

 

[Greenback]

No, it was more that Greenback was saying that PF's would work better if more barriers were in place. In my opinion, if more barriers were in place, then PF's may not be required as a deterrent. Two sides to it.

Yes, I'm coming at it from the angle that there are so many reasons why an unsuspecting traveller may be PF'd. If the person has to go to some trouble to get into the system it goes some way to proving intent.

Barriers alone aren't the answer. Neither are PF's. They were originally used in the way that Flamingo describes, but now they have been introduced on to some rural locations which seem quite inappropriate. Many station are like Par in Cornwall - not agreat deal of local travel outside of peak times, and what travel ther is is mostly for St Austell. Most travelelrs are holidaymakers, those taking a trip down the Newquay line or locals ventruing off to distant places like Plymouth, London or Birstol!

Of course we need on train checks to continue to catch those who have found their way on to the train without a ticket, those who have only bought a short distance single to get through barriers, and a multitude of other scenarios.

My underlying point is that PF's are no longer fit for purpose, and they have become something they were not intended to be, a means of raising revenue rather than deterring fare evasion! (FCC seem particularly guilty of this!) Ultimately, I'd be happy to see PF's removed altogether!

 

[Anvil1984]

Barriers don't solve everything though - how do they stop somebody travelling A-F with a CDS from A-B and a CDS from D-F but no ticket from B-D?

Thats what I am trying to say, I believe barriers do help but the staff who operate them in non PF areas aren't RPIs just station staff who seem to let anybody out just like some of the manned barriers I know (Brum New Street, Man Vic)

 

[Ferret]

That's pretty much it Anvil - they do help, but they aren't the be all and end all...

 

[Greenback]

For clarity (and to remind myself!), let me just set out my opinion...

If PF's are supposed to still be a deterrent to fare evasion, they don't work!

PF's seem more effective for some TOC's to bring in revenue through penalising mistakes by passnegers.

For PF's to be more effective in combating fare evasion, they should be confined to routes and lines where access to the system is controleld to some degree.

I don't like PF's because serail fare evaders simply pay the occasional penalty and are still better off long term. Meanwhile, some passengers unfamiliar with the fares or routeing system get unjustly PF'd and are told to appeal, which they probably often don't bother doing. Some members of staff simply don't understand the complexities of the system either, adding to the problems.

Get rid of them, and issue more UFN's, MG11's and prosecutions!

 

[142094]

OTOH the only reason that you and I and other people who understand how the system works can take as much advantage of advance fares as we do, is because the TOCs gain other revenue from outrageously high prices for non-advance tickets (and it would seem from PFs).

Good point. Apart from short local journeys and the occasional rover, most of the tickets I buy are advances due to the price. TBH I understand that they may be subsidised by those buying tickets on the day (plus subsidies from the DfT as well), however the way I see it is that if the TOC wants to give me a stupidly cheap ticket then I'm not going to refuse to buy it. In the past couple of years the most I've paid for a non-advance ticket apart from my season has been around £45 with Grand Central. In previous threads I've said I'd be happy with a ticket system in the UK similar to GC's with a few modifications, such as some advance tickets. But I'm still going to take advantage of advances as much as I can. At the minute the only reason I can is that I'm at uni so have a set timetable and know when I'll be free. Most of that will change when I start work of course!

While I like advance fares because I regard it as a form of sport to get the largest distance covered at the lowest cost, the possibility for me to do this is effectively being cross-subsidised by people who don't know what they're doing or have to travel at short notice.

I do feel a bit sorry for those who don't have the knowledge like us, but then again the information is out there. I'd expect a great deal of people now to know that booking in advance saves money, and a lot of people will probably know by now that splitting saves money as well. It's a ctach 22 situation - I'd like rail fares to be lower for all to encourage more people to travel yet I'd like to have the cheapest fares available for myself.

 

[Flamingo]

No system is perfect, and the things that are introduced to cover some eventualities (ie TVM's only able to sell from that platform to prevent dumbelling) will also prevent legitimate tickets (eg split ticketing).
Also, some people can either be very inventive or very blatent when it comes to fare evasion. As soon as one hole in the dyke is damned up, then other consequences of the closure emerge.
Anyway, I'm not high enough up the food chain to come up with a solution, I'll just keep trying to do my best all round, and hope that I get it right for the majority of people the majority of the time.

 

[billbogg]

Re the Eastleigh Couple . I am not sure if I have arrived on the right site because I am just looking at this from the point of view of the consumer and I think this couple have been treated very badly . However can someone tell me :

If someone leaves a train early does the company normally charge for it & how is that charge assessed ? Trains have a long history so this must have happened quite often.

 

[142094]

Re the Eastleigh Couple . I am not sure if I have arrived on the right site because I am just looking at this from the point of view of the consumer and I think this couple have been treated very badly . However can someone tell me :

If someone leaves a train early does the company normally charge for it & how is that charge assessed ? Trains have a long history so this must have happened quite often.

I do think you have a valid point, however I look at it from both angles as both a user or railways and someone who has worked in transport before. The whole ticketing situation is very complex and I don't fully understand some things.

With the Megatrain ticket you can only go between A and B, just like an advance. You can't stop off short at C as the restrictions say you can't. If you wanted to do so then you shouldn't have bought that ticket. So with my transport hat on I'd say the TOC concerned was correct it what they were doing. As a consumer it might be hard to swallow that but we abide by rules and regulations all the time so they can't really complain.

 

[Paul Kelly]

If someone leaves a train early does the company normally charge for it & how is that charge assessed ? Trains have a long history so this must have happened quite often.

From the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, Section 16 (p7):

If you start, break and resume, or end your journey at an intermediate station when you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to start, break and resume, or end your journey at that station on the service(s) you have used.

I believe the appropriate ticket would be the anytime day single from London Terminals to Eastleigh, which costs £28.50. Subtract the £6 already paid and the excess should be £22.50.

However Eastleigh is a Penalty Fares station, so Penalty Fares rules apply - resulting in the actual fare paid being greater than this. Personally I'm not sure how exactly that is worked out.

It would have been much cheaper for them just to travel the full way to Southampton and then buy a £3.20 anytime day single to travel back to Eastleigh on a different train! As someone said earlier in this thread, the very cheap fares to Southampton may be calculated based on the fact that because they are *only* available to and from larger stations such as Southampton, there will be extra revenue to be gained from small local fares such as this £3.20. So from a moral point of view, the couple have have cheated SWT of 2x £3.20 in revenue by alighting early. And as presumably many people do this and don't get detected, SWT feels it's within its rights to recoup this loss by applying the letter of the rules (i.e. the full excess (plus penalty fare?)) to those it does detect abusing the cheap fares.

If they had bought the £3.20 ticket from Southampton to Eastleigh separately, and alighted at Eastleigh anyway (without going to Southampton and back), technically they would have still been breaking the conditions of the £6 megatrain ticket, but morally they'd be on much firmer ground, and (perhaps most importantly, depending on your point of view!) they wouldn't have got caught as they would have had valid tickets to Eastleigh to present when challenged!

 

[Greenback]

Don't the T&C's of the Megatrain tickets override the NCoC's, in that they cannot be excessed?

 

[billbogg]

Yes I think you might have some difficulty defending that in court . I am not a lawyer however. I would argue that the conditions on the ticket might be justified in affecting the quality of the service ie they could place severe restrictions on the time you travel etc .They could not be used to infringe the rights of the passenger. He must be treated in exactly the same way as any other passenger.
There must have been earlier occasions where passengers were charged for leaving a train early and the amount they were charged. This cant be a unique case can it ?

 

[Anvil1984]

I dont think they do in all honesty but just found this deep deep inside the MegaBUS website (they really need to separate out their sites)

Please note that the departure and arrival times displayed are for the main terminus points you selected. You must board and alight at these points, and it is a condition of travel on megatrain that you may not board or alight at other points on the route. If travelling on services operated by East Midlands Trains, you will be charged the full single fare for the actual journey made.

On services operated by South West trains, Penalty fares will apply if passengers alight or board at any other points along the route, other than the stations listed on the tickets.

But it says in the T+Cs of the ticket

20.Rail travel is undertaken under the National Rail Conditions of Carriage as amended by these terms. A copy can be obtained from staffed train stations or from www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/.

and nowhere in the T+Cs does it mention anything about excess fares or even PFs
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes I think you might have some difficulty defending that in court . I am not a lawyer however. I would argue that the conditions on the ticket might be justified in affecting the quality of the service ie they could place severe restrictions on the time you travel etc .They could not be used to infringe the rights of the passenger. He must be treated in exactly the same way as any other passenger.
There must have been earlier occasions where passengers were charged for leaving a train early and the amount they were charged. This cant be a unique case can it ?

But the rights of the passenger are not being infringed, the rights are set out as per the terms and conditions and elsewhere on the website so therefore no infringement has taken place. This is a pretty unique case as Megatrain tickets aren't common throughout the country and there doesn't seem to be this problem with the regular advance tickets

 

[billbogg]

I agree that no infringement has taken place if these same rules applied to all passengers but I cant find out if that is the case.

 

[EM2]

Yes I think you might have some difficulty defending that in court . I am not a lawyer however. I would argue that the conditions on the ticket might be justified in affecting the quality of the service ie they could place severe restrictions on the time you travel etc .They could not be used to infringe the rights of the passenger. He must be treated in exactly the same way as any other passenger.
There must have been earlier occasions where passengers were charged for leaving a train early and the amount they were charged. This cant be a unique case can it ?

These tickets are *specifically* for restricted services, in fact they are restricted to just one. They specify which train you can travel on and between which points. It's because of this lack of flexibility that they are so cheap. It is exactly the same principle as Ryanair or Easyjet. If you want a flexible ticket, you fly with BA or KLM.
It's like buying a cheap ticket at the back of the stand at a football match, and complaining that your view isn't as good as someone who paid twice as much to sit at the front.

 

[Anvil1984]

The rules apply to all passengers on that ticket type, different ticket types have differing rules on flexibility.

 

[billbogg]

"Please note that the departure and arrival times displayed are for the main terminus points you selected. You must board and alight at these points, and it is a condition of travel on megatrain that you may not board or alight at other points on the route. If travelling on services operated by East Midlands Trains, you will be charged the full single fare for the actual journey made."
Now that seems to be a good example of an unacceptable condition . So if you want to get off and buy a paper you are infringing their conditions.

 

[4SRKT]

Good point. Apart from short local journeys and the occasional rover, most of the tickets I buy are advances due to the price. TBH I understand that they may be subsidised by those buying tickets on the day (plus subsidies from the DfT as well), however the way I see it is that if the TOC wants to give me a stupidly cheap ticket then I'm not going to refuse to buy it. In the past couple of years the most I've paid for a non-advance ticket apart from my season has been around £45 with Grand Central. In previous threads I've said I'd be happy with a ticket system in the UK similar to GC's with a few modifications, such as some advance tickets. But I'm still going to take advantage of advances as much as I can. At the minute the only reason I can is that I'm at uni so have a set timetable and know when I'll be free. Most of that will change when I start work of course!

It depends what you do for a living when you start work. I've been in work for 15 years, but still plan meticulously ahead. I also get to use the train as part of my job, which enables some interesting moves.

I do feel a bit sorry for those who don't have the knowledge like us, but then again the information is out there. I'd expect a great deal of people now to know that booking in advance saves money, and a lot of people will probably know by now that splitting saves money as well. It's a ctach 22 situation - I'd like rail fares to be lower for all to encourage more people to travel yet I'd like to have the cheapest fares available for myself.

I think you may have been moving too much in railway enthusiast circles. In my experience most people have no idea at all that fare splitting can save often large sums. And why would anybody even suspect this if they didn't already know? It's totally counter-intuitive.

What's more, although the information may be out there, it's difficult to assimilate and use without a very deep understanding of railway operations. I am like a walking routing algorithm, so can quickly process many options in my head to work out the best route/price combination. I occasionally have to come on here if I've got a query about a specific thing I haven't come up against before, and usually I get courteous assitance rather than libelled by an over-zealous rule-slave as I did in this thread Most people's geographical knowledge is so poor that they will not be able to process what is to outsiders complex and (sometimes) irrational info, and have no real option but to accept the first fare they're told.

 

[Anvil1984]

"Please note that the departure and arrival times displayed are for the main terminus points you selected. You must board and alight at these points, and it is a condition of travel on megatrain that you may not board or alight at other points on the route. If travelling on services operated by East Midlands Trains, you will be charged the full single fare for the actual journey made."
Now that seems to be a good example of an unacceptable condition . So if you want to get off and buy a paper you are infringing their conditions.

If you get back on the same train then your fine, if you try and get on a different train or leave the station then you will be charged, in all honesty at most stations theres no time to do this

 

[Deerfold]

"Please note that the departure and arrival times displayed are for the main terminus points you selected. You must board and alight at these points, and it is a condition of travel on megatrain that you may not board or alight at other points on the route. If travelling on services operated by East Midlands Trains, you will be charged the full single fare for the actual journey made."
Now that seems to be a good example of an unacceptable condition . So if you want to get off and buy a paper you are infringing their conditions.

Yes, you'd be infringing their conditions. All advance tickets (of which Megatrain are a special case) restrict you to a particular service - if you want to get a paper you need to get it before you start, after you finish or where there's a connection (you won't get connecting tickets with Megatrain but you will with other advance tickets or Megabusplus which has a bus and train section). That's the price you pay for getting a cheap ticket. If you could get on and off any train everyone would buy them instead of the more expensive tickets.

 

[142094]

It depends what you do for a living when you start work. I've been in work for 15 years, but still plan meticulously ahead. I also get to use the train as part of my job, which enables some interesting moves.

Suppose it depends on what kind of job you have. In some places I've worked it is hard to book days off in advance in case you get a sudden load of work to do, sometimes leave can be cancelled or changed at short notice.

I think you may have been moving too much in railway enthusiast circles. In my experience most people have no idea at all that fare splitting can save often large sums. And why would anybody even suspect this if they didn't already know? It's totally counter-intuitive.

What's more, although the information may be out there, it's difficult to assimilate and use without a very deep understanding of railway operations. I am like a walking routing algorithm, so can quickly process many options in my head to work out the best route/price combination. I occasionally have to come on here if I've got a query about a specific thing I haven't come up against before, and usually I get courteous assitance rather than libelled by an over-zealous rule-slave as I did in this thread Most people's geographical knowledge is so poor that they will not be able to process what is to outsiders complex and (sometimes) irrational info, and have no real option but to accept the first fare they're told.

Quite a lot of the time there are articles in newspapers and on things like moneysupermarket.com and similar things telling people how to save money when buying train tickets. I'd expect >90% of people to know now about advance tickets, granted probably far less about splitting. I'm not saying it can be easy but it can be done by a lay person if they tried. Problem is a lot of people are too lazy to look or don't try.

 

[sheff1]

Been away for a week; I gave up reading this thread when people started making spurious comparisons to breaking bowls and drinking cans; this is a service, not a product, they're priced and consumed differently!

Which is exactly why I put forward the hotel comparison. Unfortunately that quickly got lost in the parallel discussions, which is what I half expected.

I will keep it handy to roll out at another time.