Jozhua
Established Member
- Joined
- 6 Jan 2019
- Messages
- 1,860
I think this conversation is interesting - definitely goes to prove that modes are probably less important than the infrastructure you actually plan to run it on.
Due to the quite tight curve radi that the trams have to navigate on some parts, does put a pretty hard limit on top speed due to hunting oscillation. If you've seen any stops where the trams come down from 30-40mph or above (e.g Heston Park) you can still see them wobbling from side to side, even when they've stopped!
It definately makes for an exciting experience picking up some speed towards Oldham, but yeah, unfortunately I don't think they'll be going faster than 55 anytime soon.
That said, that's also the top speed of the New York Subway, and that certainly can't navigate curves as tight as the Metrolink.
If you're making stops every mile or two, the fast acceleration/braking probably makes it better than heavy rail. I do wonder what power limitations 750v DC brings though, I can't imagine that you can draw much current through the thin wires.
In the future, especially for say an underground tunnel, fitting the trams with dual-voltage capability and just wiring up 25kv AC seems sensible.
Another potential issue with mixed street running will could be the maximum tram lengths. 4 cars seems to be the max, and to be fair, they do carry a pretty significant amount of people.
Perhaps with a new tram, or an M5000 with intermediate cars, you could fit a few more passengers into that train length, as you'd have a bit of standing room in the shared-bogie section and room back from the cabs.
But, that said, frequency is king and at the point you are running a full four car train, it could be argued it's best to just run more of them, because this will create a more appealing service, especially as things branch out into the extremities of the system.
Traffic out near Salford Quays is pretty bad, so actually having the tram is quite beneficial in the peak. It is a bit slow to serve Eccles well though. I guess it is a good connection to Pamona and Cornbrook, where you can change for a quite large number of other Metrolink destinations.
HS2 Phase 2b is planning on funding a buried 4-track station under Piccadilly, with local gov then funding the extension of that into a tunnel under the city.
Another thing that's not mentioned with city centre street running is the propensity to crush pedestrians. As much as I'm sure tram drivers try their best, and I've seen some very fantastic response times to people just walking in front, driving a four car train through a pedestrianised area is probably a recipe for disaster.
Now, I think the bit around St Peter's Square is done quite well, and definitely feels quite safe. But around Piccadilly and Market St, less so. Indeed, there is a reason people call that bit opposite Primark "death valley" or something similar. On a busy Saturday, the risk of getting squashed is definitely quite high!
Indeed I have heard stories from ex-coroners office people about the frequency at which is happens. It's less than road traffic in the area, but it is a recognised form of death.
Due to the quite tight curve radi that the trams have to navigate on some parts, does put a pretty hard limit on top speed due to hunting oscillation. If you've seen any stops where the trams come down from 30-40mph or above (e.g Heston Park) you can still see them wobbling from side to side, even when they've stopped!
It definately makes for an exciting experience picking up some speed towards Oldham, but yeah, unfortunately I don't think they'll be going faster than 55 anytime soon.
That said, that's also the top speed of the New York Subway, and that certainly can't navigate curves as tight as the Metrolink.
If you're making stops every mile or two, the fast acceleration/braking probably makes it better than heavy rail. I do wonder what power limitations 750v DC brings though, I can't imagine that you can draw much current through the thin wires.
In the future, especially for say an underground tunnel, fitting the trams with dual-voltage capability and just wiring up 25kv AC seems sensible.
Another potential issue with mixed street running will could be the maximum tram lengths. 4 cars seems to be the max, and to be fair, they do carry a pretty significant amount of people.
Perhaps with a new tram, or an M5000 with intermediate cars, you could fit a few more passengers into that train length, as you'd have a bit of standing room in the shared-bogie section and room back from the cabs.
But, that said, frequency is king and at the point you are running a full four car train, it could be argued it's best to just run more of them, because this will create a more appealing service, especially as things branch out into the extremities of the system.
You see, disinvestment in public transport and infrastructure crosses party boundaries! Bi-partisan cancellations lmao...
Yeah, the city centre is very packed, especially with the Trafford Park line coming online.
Yes, it gets up to incredible speeds of 5, possibly 10 miles per hour.
Literally, because it spends half the time grinding the rails on minimum radius curves!
Traffic out near Salford Quays is pretty bad, so actually having the tram is quite beneficial in the peak. It is a bit slow to serve Eccles well though. I guess it is a good connection to Pamona and Cornbrook, where you can change for a quite large number of other Metrolink destinations.
I don't think so. There's a limit to how fast you can cross the city at-grade, so having some services go under would probably speed journey times up quite a bit.
HS2 Phase 2b is planning on funding a buried 4-track station under Piccadilly, with local gov then funding the extension of that into a tunnel under the city.
Another thing that's not mentioned with city centre street running is the propensity to crush pedestrians. As much as I'm sure tram drivers try their best, and I've seen some very fantastic response times to people just walking in front, driving a four car train through a pedestrianised area is probably a recipe for disaster.
Now, I think the bit around St Peter's Square is done quite well, and definitely feels quite safe. But around Piccadilly and Market St, less so. Indeed, there is a reason people call that bit opposite Primark "death valley" or something similar. On a busy Saturday, the risk of getting squashed is definitely quite high!
Indeed I have heard stories from ex-coroners office people about the frequency at which is happens. It's less than road traffic in the area, but it is a recognised form of death.
