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Very true, but as I keep saying some people appear to have lost sight of what normality and happiness is. It’s all relative and they’re too easily placated by small concessions. Again I know I’m repeating myself, but I’m absolutely shocked at the level of control the government has been able to exercise over the majority of the population, I think they could do whatever they want at this point and most people would just accept it.
There is a massive difference between accepting the current situation and "being happy" with it.
Do not confuse the two.
There is also a massive difference between accepting the current situation for a relatively short period of time (in the grand scheme of things, even the ~18 months or so we are looking at is a short period of time in most people's lives) and accepting the current situation for a longer period of time.
Again, it is important not to confuse the two.
I don’t think 18 months is a short period of time, and some of the consequences (for example ruined university courses and botched GCSEs and A-levels) could affect people for a lifetime.
I am increasingly coming to the view there is a considerable subset of people who *are* happy with this. They relish the simple life they are living - it fulfils their demands on life without having to endure negatives like having to bear the commute or the workplace.
Don’t get me wrong, I really want to be proved wrong on this, however what I am seeing in my locality suggests this is exactly to where we are sleepwalking. The longer this goes on for the more people seem to be forgetting the positive aspects of their former life. No doubt in the same way people living in communist China are content with their life as they know little different.
Very true, but as I keep saying some people appear to have lost sight of what normality and happiness is. It’s all relative and they’re too easily placated by small concessions. Again I know I’m repeating myself, but I’m absolutely shocked at the level of control the government has been able to exercise over the majority of the population, I think they could do whatever they want at this point and most people would just accept it.
I don’t think 18 months is a short period of time, and some of the consequences (for example ruined university courses and botched GCSEs and A-levels) could affect people for a lifetime.
I am increasingly coming to the view there is a considerable subset of people who *are* happy with this. They relish the simple life they are living - it fulfils their demands on life without having to endure negatives like having to bear the commute or the workplace.
Don’t get me wrong, I really want to be proved wrong on this, however what I am seeing in my locality suggests this is exactly to where we are sleepwalking. The longer this goes on for the more people seem to be forgetting the positive aspects of their former life. No doubt in the same way people living in communist China are content with their life as they know little different.
Do you mean legitimately think that this is a better way to live? If so then yes I realise such people exist. I would however be interested to know what their motivations are. I suspect for many of them this is just a step towards their vision, as opposed to the end game itself.
Do you mean legitimately think that this is a better way to live? If so then yes I realise such people exist. I would however be interested to know what their motivations are. I suspect for many of them this is just a step towards their vision, as opposed to the end game itself.
Partially. No doubt there are people like that but I think a lot more genuinely believe that the lockdown measures are temporary and for the good of the country.
I was trying to say that people who don't agree with you (by you I mean each person individually) may have come to their conclusion in the same way you come to yours (again, each individual person). As for the legitimacy of those views it depends on the supporting evidence
You clearly look at this the same way I do, it worries me greatly.
Do you mean legitimately think that this is a better way to live? If so then yes I realise such people exist. I would however be interested to know what their motivations are. I suspect for many of them this is just a step towards their vision, as opposed to the end game itself.
I could say that I like the empty trains at the moment. One of the few positives of this is that I get a lovely peaceful journey to work by train. Sure masks are a negative, but in seven months I’ve encountered zero practical enforcement, so I don’t have to wear one if I don’t want to (note the similarity with some of the movement and gathering restrictions?!).
So I could quite easily be tempted by lockdown as it makes elements of my life better. In reality it doesn’t enhance my life as a whole, as the negatives (not being able to do all the other things which make my life worth living) vastly outweigh any small positive.
However some people seem quite content to live a base existence, which what we’ve had over the last year hasn’t really prevented them from having. This is the worry.
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Partially. No doubt there are people like that but I think a lot more genuinely believe that the lockdown measures are temporary and for the good of the country.
I was trying to say that people who don't agree with you (by you I mean each person individually) may have come to their conclusion in the same way you come to yours (again, each individual person). As for the legitimacy of those views it depends on the supporting evidence
Thinking back to how the mentality of some of the population was demonstrated by fighting over toilet rolls, I’d say the legitimacy of such views and the quality of their supporting evidence is probably very questionable indeed!
I agree with your premise however, there will certainly be people who genuinely believe time-bound lockdown is a legitimate policy aim, and that’s not unreasonable in itself. I just worry that the collective hysteria has caused a subset of people to become too focussed on this to the point their position has become too entrenched to be open to change. In short such people are now ideologically led rather than evidence led, that’s never a good position to be in.
Note how much chatter there’s been on the news today regarding the risk of “new variants”. Just watch the goalposts move again.
LThinking back to how the mentality of some of the population was demonstrated by fighting over toilet rolls, I’d say the legitimacy of such views and the quality of their supporting evidence is probably very questionable indeed!
I think that was overblown by government and the press. Whilst it shouldn't have happened they were very eager to blame people (not much has changed has it?) - very little given was mentioned to supermarkets' just in time delivery model which is not good at "unexpected" events such as Covid-19 which we saw coming closer and closer to the UK...
I just think this world would be better if we could all try and understand each other a bit more.
I think that was overblown by government and the press. Whilst it shouldn't have happened they were very eager to blame people (not much has changed has it?) - very little given was mentioned to supermarkets' just in time delivery model which is not good at "unexpected" events such as Covid-19 which we saw coming closer and closer to the UK...
I just think this world would be better if we could all try and understand each other a bit more.
The press seemed curiously reluctant to acknowledge that the press should shoulder a lot of the blame, for spreading the message that there was a toilet roll shortage when there clearly wasn't.
Just in time delivery is taking a lot of undeserved blame. supermarkets sold about a months supply of toilet roll in a matter of days. Given how much space that stuff takes up in cramped stockrooms, it's impressive that there was so much of it the supply chain at all.
I don’t think 18 months is a short period of time, and some of the consequences (for example ruined university courses and botched GCSEs and A-levels) could affect people for a lifetime.
I am increasingly coming to the view there is a considerable subset of people who *are* happy with this. They relish the simple life they are living - it fulfils their demands on life without having to endure negatives like having to bear the commute or the workplace.
Don’t get me wrong, I really want to be proved wrong on this, however what I am seeing in my locality suggests this is exactly to where we are sleepwalking. The longer this goes on for the more people seem to be forgetting the positive aspects of their former life. No doubt in the same way people living in communist China are content with their life as they know little different.
I think there are many great things about Britain, but this crisis has allowed a subset of our population who are trumped up little authoritarians (or are in a constant state of professional outrage over some nonsense) power they have never known before to make peoples lives an unremitting misery. You can sometimes spot them milling around town centres and parks in this crisis looking for something to moan about on the Sun or Daily Mail comment boards. We are lucky the infection rates are going down quite quickly or god knows what nonsense our weak government would have been pressured into.
I will be interested to see the long term effects this has on my area of science. The whole 'supply chain' from A levels up to postdoctoral level have been shafted in some way or another, and I suspect the 'covid' generation will have long term 'headwinds' in their careers.
I think there are many great things about Britain, but this crisis has allowed a subset of our population who are trumped up little authoritarians (or are in a constant state of professional outrage over some nonsense) power they have never known before to make peoples lives an unremitting misery. You can sometimes spot them milling around town centres and parks in this crisis looking for something to moan about on the Sun or Daily Mail comment boards. We are lucky the infection rates are going down quite quickly or god knows what nonsense our weak government would have been pressured into.
I will be interested to see the long term effects this has on my area of science. The whole 'supply chain' from A levels up to postdoctoral level have been shafted in some way or another, and I suspect the 'covid' generation will have long term 'headwinds' in their careers.
This is from a government that is paying their mates in catering companies a large sum of money to feed kids with the end product not being worth the amount paid. They don't care
I think there are many great things about Britain, but this crisis has allowed a subset of our population who are trumped up little authoritarians (or are in a constant state of professional outrage over some nonsense) power they have never known before to make peoples lives an unremitting misery. You can sometimes spot them milling around town centres and parks in this crisis looking for something to moan about on the Sun or Daily Mail comment boards. We are lucky the infection rates are going down quite quickly or god knows what nonsense our weak government would have been pressured into.
I will be interested to see the long term effects this has on my area of science. The whole 'supply chain' from A levels up to postdoctoral level have been shafted in some way or another, and I suspect the 'covid' generation will have long term 'headwinds' in their careers.
Absolutely agreed. I bet there’s a correlation between those who are content to live a “basic existence” and some of the jumped-up authoritarians who wish to stop others making the most of their lives. In fact, it makes sense as such people likely can’t understand why others wish to make the most of life, as they don’t possess the sophistication to make the most of their own.
I will be interested to see the long term effects this has on my area of science. The whole 'supply chain' from A levels up to postdoctoral level have been shafted in some way or another, and I suspect the 'covid' generation will have long term 'headwinds' in their careers.
It will devestate science for years to come. The work I am doing now is of lower quality and smaller quantity than it would be without the response to Covid. New students in the laboratory where I work have clearly been set back by missing half a year's worth of practical experience. Going forward things won't be getting any better in academia for a very long time given how cautious universities are being when it comes to social distancing (going much further with it than companies with very similar facilities). And the biggest damage will be done in 5-10 years time when some of today's A-Level students should be entering a career in science, but will inevitably be set back by not having a proper education for more than a year.
The press seemed curiously reluctant to acknowledge that the press should shoulder a lot of the blame, for spreading the message that there was a toilet roll shortage when there clearly wasn't.
Just in time delivery is taking a lot of undeserved blame. supermarkets sold about a months supply of toilet roll in a matter of days. Given how much space that stuff takes up in cramped stockrooms, it's impressive that there was so much of it the supply chain at all.
You could be right on both counts. The press were giving huge attention to supposed shortages with a sentence from supermarket bosses to say there isn't.
Just in time is fair enough, I'd not realised they'd sold that quickly. If I may be permitted to put on a tinfoil hat I wonder how many supermarkets have snuck up prices on non-obvious lines or shut unprofitable counters
It will devestate science for years to come. The work I am doing now is of lower quality and smaller quantity than it would be without the response to Covid. New students in the laboratory where I work have clearly been set back by missing half a year's worth of practical experience. Going forward things won't be getting any better in academia for a very long time given how cautious universities are being when it comes to social distancing (going much further with it than companies with very similar facilities). And the biggest damage will be done in 5-10 years time when some of today's A-Level students should be entering a career in science, but will inevitably be set back by not having a proper education for more than a year.
I'm genuinely interested to see if this endless mantra of "following the science" will end up having a negative effect on recruitment. If people start to feel like science has been the cause of their education being wrecked then it might make STEM recruitment even harder. More worryingly it might also make it more appealing to authoritarian types
I'm genuinely interested to see if this endless mantra of "following the science" will end up having a negative effect on recruitment. If people start to feel like science has been the cause of their education being wrecked then it might make STEM recruitment even harder. More worryingly it might also make it more appealing to authoritarian types
You can bet we’ll hear plenty more of “followed the science” when all the inevitable inquiries and legal cases happen. Just watch Whitty and Vallance go straight under the bus.
I'm genuinely interested to see if this endless mantra of "following the science" will end up having a negative effect on recruitment. If people start to feel like science has been the cause of their education being wrecked then it might make STEM recruitment even harder. More worryingly it might also make it more appealing to authoritarian types
It could well have a negative impact on recruitment in some areas. But I suspect those issues will be dwarfed by the damage done to the people applying for those courses/jobs.
Hospitalisations rates are not yet showing any signs of abatement and continue to move upwards on a daily basis with some high net admissions of nearly a 1000/day over last couple of days. Until net admissions are negative on a daily basis I can't see them relaxing one iota im afraid. So when will that happen isn't clear as the scientists are not yet sure what benefit is accruing from vaccinations either in protection from the virus or whether you can continue to spread it. What we can take solace in is that case rates are now falling very fast especially in London & SE and there is a reasonable correlation with admission rates but at a 3-4 week lag it will probably be later this month that equilibrium is reached nationally but by then there will be north of 40k hospitalised. Even at that point they will want to avoid any resurgence to ensure NHS can recover and the staff can gain some respite from what will have been a horrendous number of months for those in Covid care so that will be a reason to keep restrictions on and I suspect bulk of population will accept that.
The real salvation will come as the days lengthen and the sun shines more as this is proven to drive down respiratory viruses naturally so to my mind they should be able to relax everywhere down to Tier 2 come April and even Tier 1 before start of summer. However, as we move towards autumn there will need to be a rapid response tier escalation process as a contingency if there is any sign of the virus running away again.
I think they need to be expanding NHS capacity to cope with the mountainous backlog of operations, scans and treatments that have been sidelined in response to this virus.
If almost everyone has been vaccinated by Autumn, surely hospitalisations from Covid will be insignificant? Even if vaccination doesn’t necessarily mean you can’t still carry the disease, who can you pass it to?
However, as we move towards autumn there will need to be a rapid response tier escalation process as a contingency if there is any sign of the virus running away again.
I think they need to be expanding NHS capacity to cope with the mountainous backlog of operations, scans and treatments that have been sidelined in response to this virus.
If almost everyone has been vaccinated by Autumn, surely hospitalisations from Covid will be insignificant? Even if vaccination doesn’t necessarily mean you can’t still carry the disease, who can you pass it to?
I’m not sure Whitty et al said that this would be a seasonal virus right at the start? Indeed, it was never meant to stay around long enough to be seasonal if you recall. Some of us on here speculated that it would become seasonal and subsequently asked why the experts did not predict this until it was too late. I’m happy to be corrected but that’s my recollection.
In regard to your final point, I don’t think the message is lost on the lockdown sceptics. Most of us are fully aware of this. The problem is, people will spend more time indoors over winter when you have a climate like ours. Unless I’m mistaken, you appear to be suggesting we change normal human behaviour? This is exactly what lockdowns and restrictions do, and yet we find ourselves in the current situation. What are your practical solutions?
The whole point of the original flawed plan (pre lockdown 1) was to slow the rate of transmission during the end of the winter period. As spring was just around the corner they were predicting rates would naturally drop away quickly. They failed miserably allowing the exponential momentum to build too high in the system. Thus the lockdown when it finally came had to be far longer than it should to bring the levels back down.
Yes I am suggesting we educate people so they can change their own behaviour. But the lockdown rules we have in place are encouraging people to stay inside where they are at more risk of spreading the virus. People should be outside whilst refraining from socialising. Even if it feels unnatural to get out in the cold and the wet. Spending time in nature away from other people is what should be encouraged. (I say this from a place where it is currently - 11 with a foot of snow on the ground.) So I know it is counter intuitive with the draw of warm rooms and central heating. However hospitality venues draw in crowds and encourage congregation so I disagree with that premise. But the banning of people from walking in the national parks. Forcing people who live in cramped inner city housing to only go out for limited exercise when there are swathes of open land that could be used. It is completely the wrong way to go about it.
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hanging around a beauty spot, beach or local park for a few hours drinking coffee, and the highlight of their life is a day out to the supermarket, garden centre or B&Q.
Well for me that is far better than the highlight being a trip to a dirty sweaty pub to watch two alcho's slobber all over each other before smashing a couple of pool ques over each other's head.
But I appreciate that's just me and many people prefer the latter
National lockdowns are destroying the economy and creating a mental health catastrophe. Had they robustly implemented the tier plans they rolled out rather than prevaricating all the time they may well have contained the virus at levels the NHS could manage.
Anyhow what im saying here is we need a contingency plan that covers a worst case scenario not a situation where they wait and see then react too slowly only have to use sledgehammer tool of lockdowns.
Hospitalisations rates are not yet showing any signs of abatement and continue to move upwards on a daily basis with some high net admissions of nearly a 1000/day over last couple of days. Until net admissions are negative on a daily basis I can't see them relaxing one iota im afraid. So when will that happen isn't clear as the scientists are not yet sure what benefit is accruing from vaccinations either in protection from the virus or whether you can continue to spread it. What we can take solace in is that case rates are now falling very fast especially in London & SE and there is a reasonable correlation with admission rates but at a 3-4 week lag it will probably be later this month that equilibrium is reached nationally but by then there will be north of 40k hospitalised. Even at that point they will want to avoid any resurgence to ensure NHS can recover and the staff can gain some respite from what will have been a horrendous number of months for those in Covid care so that will be a reason to keep restrictions on and I suspect bulk of population will accept that.
The real salvation will come as the days lengthen and the sun shines more as this is proven to drive down respiratory viruses naturally so to my mind they should be able to relax everywhere down to Tier 2 come April and even Tier 1 before start of summer. However, as we move towards autumn there will need to be a rapid response tier escalation process as a contingency if there is any sign of the virus running away again.
That's all well and good but I, along with many other people I'm sure, am not prepared to "stay at home" for months on end.
The powers that be can either set some parameters within which I can undertake some socially distanced outdoor exercise with my small circle of friends, or they can lose my cooperation. The choice is theirs.
Very true, but as I keep saying some people appear to have lost sight of what normality and happiness is. It’s all relative and they’re too easily placated by small concessions. Again I know I’m repeating myself, but I’m absolutely shocked at the level of control the government has been able to exercise over the majority of the population, I think they could do whatever they want at this point and most people would just accept it.
I think that over the last couple of decades people have become a lot less social and so find lockdowns a lot easier to cope with than if this had happened in say the 1980s.
I think that over the last couple of decades people have become a lot less social and so find lockdowns a lot easier to cope with than if this had happened in say the 1980s.
I am increasingly coming to the conclusion the country is already ruined.
We now seem to have a proportion of the population who seem happy to live an existence akin to being a household pet. Namely that in return for not having to get up and go to work, they’re happy to exchange a fulfilled enriched life for a controlled restricted facile existence where their average day will consist of hanging around a beauty spot, beach or local park for a few hours drinking coffee, and the highlight of their life is a day out to the supermarket, garden centre or B&Q.
There’s now a real danger we’re all being dragged down to this level, with a prime minister whose past history consists of writing funny not-particularly-well-researched magazine articles, and who is simply not worldly wise nor strong enough to arrest the sleepwalk.
As it is, the longer this nonsense goes on for the less of the good enriching things we’re going to have left, a process which debases us down to the lowest level anyways.
Take away furlough and the majority would soon have a reality check about behaving that way.
The other issue imv is the majority have lost independent thought and have also largely dissociated themselves with whats happening in politics and the world around them. So when a crisis like this emerges they are easily led as they have been manipulated by the politicians and the media. One hundred years people had to fight (not in wars) to get through there lives and they were much more aware of what was going on how there lives would be impacted and would have seen what was going to happen.
hanging around a beauty spot, beach or local park for a few hours drinking coffee, and the highlight of their life is a day out to the supermarket, garden centre or B&Q.
Well for me that is far better than the highlight being a trip to a dirty sweaty pub to watch two alcho's slobber all over each other before smashing a couple of pool ques over each other's head.
But I appreciate that's just me and many people prefer the latter
Well for me that is far better than the highlight being a trip to a dirty sweaty pub to watch two alcho's slobber all over each other before smashing a couple of pool ques over each other's head.
But I appreciate that's just me and many people prefer the latter
Well for me that is far better than the highlight being a trip to a dirty sweaty pub to watch two alcho's slobber all over each other before smashing a couple of pool ques over each other's head.
But I appreciate that's just me and many people prefer the latter
I don't think anybody prefers the latter. I am starting to suspect you've never actually been in a pub though, if you think that's at all reflective of what any of them are like.
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