Is the class 455 really life expired?

[MontyP]

I’ve never quite got this, as personally I much prefer the Southern refurb.

I suppose it depends on how one uses the trains - if you travel in the peaks then the SWT refurb probably gives a better seating layout. However the Southern layout is much better if you’re an off-peak user where you’ll likely have a whole facing bay to ones self.

The SWT refurb made the units far more suitable for a crammed commuter / metro network, with cleared space around the doorways to allow faster boarding/disembarking, and wider gangways due to the 2+2 seating to allow for a big increase in standing (overall) capacity. My limited experience of Southern 455s between Victoria and Clapham Junction is that they are rarely as busy as SWR services but even so, are more claustrophobic.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They're Grammer E3000s, aren't they (for commonality with the 450s and 444s)? Don't get a much better regional seat, nothing like Fainsa/Compin's vastly inferior product.

With respect, your opinion on Grammar does not stand for all. I personally find the 455s used on Southern to have far nicer seats - and actually a brighter and more colourful ambience. The silver everywhere inside the SW 455s and the awful echo with the PIS makes me feel like I’m in a tin can.

 

[Mikey C]

The SWT 455s have a decent interior. While they've opened up the space around the doors, the door openings are themselves still too small for a London commuter train (assuming we go back to something like pre Covid loadings)

 

[norbitonflyer]

The SWT refurb made the units far more suitable for a crammed commuter / metro network, with cleared space around the doorways to allow faster boarding/disembarking, and wider gangways due to the 2+2 seating to allow for a big increase in standing (overall) capacity. My limited experience of Southern 455s between Victoria and Clapham Junction is that they are rarely as busy as SWR services but even so, are more claustrophobic.

The gangways may be wider, but not wide enough to stand two-abreast, so no more people can stand in the gangways than before. Certainly not enough extra space for those now having to stand because of the loss of seats.

And they look like ironing boards to me
6527274727_14e95cbe14_b.jpg (1024×768) (staticflickr.com)

Here's the original interior - much less claustrophobic, more seats, and convenient "bottom perches" on the end of every row of seats for those who do have to stand.

 

[43096]

The gangways may be wider, but not wide enough to stand two-abreast, so no more people can stand in the gangways than before. Certainly not enough extra space for those now having to stand because of the loss of seats.

And they look like ironing boards to me
6527274727_14e95cbe14_b.jpg (1024×768) (staticflickr.com)

Here's the original interior - much less claustrophobic, more seats, and convenient "bottom perches" on the end of every row of seats for those who do have to stand.

They are not ironing boards. The ironing board moniker is applied to the Fainsa rubbish in the 387s/700s/707s and the like.

 

[Journeyman]

The gangways may be wider, but not wide enough to stand two-abreast, so no more people can stand in the gangways than before. Certainly not enough extra space for those now having to stand because of the loss of seats.

And they look like ironing boards to me
6527274727_14e95cbe14_b.jpg (1024×768) (staticflickr.com)

Here's the original interior - much less claustrophobic, more seats, and convenient "bottom perches" on the end of every row of seats for those who do have to stand.

The original 455 interiors were absolutely dreadful and not even remotely fit for purpose. The 3+2 seating was very rarely used as such because sitting in the middle seat of three was horrible. SWT did a fantastic job on the refurb, creating a flexible layout that worked far better.

 

[Jozhua]

I can tell you that they’re a horrible place to be on a very hot day.

Yeah, this sounds about right - reflects my experience of Mk3 MU's up t'north.

Air Con also means you can close the windows - something which helps to reduce noise levels a lot. Although this is more noticable for DMU's.

The gangways may be wider, but not wide enough to stand two-abreast, so no more people can stand in the gangways than before. Certainly not enough extra space for those now having to stand because of the loss of seats.

And they look like ironing boards to me
6527274727_14e95cbe14_b.jpg (1024×768) (staticflickr.com)

Here's the original interior - much less claustrophobic, more seats, and convenient "bottom perches" on the end of every row of seats for those who do have to stand.

New one looks better ngl.

 

[Meglos]

Living on the Chessington Branch it's almost entirely 455/456 combo's, regularly giving us 4, 6, 8 or 10 carriage combo's. Occasionally you see two 707's forming a 10 carriage train, but it's currently fairly rare. Not as rare however as the Sunday when a single 456 (2 carriage) appeared on one service, luckily it was a quiet service! I believe the 455 associated with the 456 failed at Waterloo, and the controller decided to continue with just the 456 rather than cancel the service.

In summer 2019 we got an evening 707 from Waterloo, which then ran ECS to Wimbledon Park Depot from Chessington South. So essentially a way to move a 707 into the depot! You could pretty much guarentee that you would hear passengers grumbling that the 'new' train being less comfortable than the 'normal trains'.

 

[Juniper Driver]

Living on the Chessington Branch it's almost entirely 455/456 combo's, regularly giving us 4, 6, 8 or 10 carriage combo's. Occasionally you see two 707's forming a 10 carriage train, but it's currently fairly rare. Not as rare however as the Sunday when a single 456 (2 carriage) appeared on one service, luckily it was a quiet service! I believe the 455 associated with the 456 failed at Waterloo, and the controller decided to continue with just the 456 rather than cancel the service.

In summer 2019 we got an evening 707 from Waterloo, which then ran ECS to Wimbledon Park Depot from Chessington South. So essentially a way to move a 707 into the depot! You could pretty much guarentee that you would hear passengers grumbling that the 'new' train being less comfortable than the 'normal trains'.

Surprised they ran a 2 car... Well dodgy...

 

[Wolfie]

I don't recognise those criticisms at all. The refurbished trains were transformed, and much more pleasant to travel in. The seats are absolutely not "ironing boards" either.

Agreed.

 

[adc82140]

Straying in to Crayola territory (apologies) if the powers that be wanted to squeeze a little more life out of the new traction package, a wholesale cascade to Southern to replace their 455s and also remove the 508 trailer from some then you've got some 3 cars to see off the 313s. Whether this would be worthwhile for potentially a short period is debatable, but, ahem, ex LNER HSTs to EMR....

 

[Meglos]

Surprised they ran a 2 car... Well dodgy...

My garden overlooks the line, and saw it on the Down service. Convinced I was mistaken, so went to the station and waited for the corresponding Up service. It definately was a two car, and it was picking up passengers.

 

[swt_passenger]

Straying in to Crayola territory (apologies) if the powers that be wanted to squeeze a little more life out of the new traction package, a wholesale cascade to Southern to replace their 455s and also remove the 508 trailer from some then you've got some 3 cars to see off the 313s. Whether this would be worthwhile for potentially a short period is debatable, but, ahem, ex LNER HSTs to EMR....

It’s been regularly suggested. I suspect if they all belonged to the same ROSCO it would be much easier...

 

[JonathanH]

I can tell you that they’re a horrible place to be on a very hot day.

I remember one particular hot day in 2003 when I travelled on a 455 on which someone had removed the hopper window aparture, presumably to increase the airflow.

 

[TEW]

The SWT 455s have a decent interior. While they've opened up the space around the doors, the door openings are themselves still too small for a London commuter train (assuming we go back to something like pre Covid loadings)

SWT did actually modify the doors to open wider too, it's certainly noticable compared to the Southern 455s.

 

[DorkingMain]

Surprised they ran a 2 car... Well dodgy...

Thought 2 cars were banned due to the risk of them gapping.

They were always minimum formation 4 in my time

 

[Peter Mugridge]

It’s been regularly suggested. I suspect if they all belonged to the same ROSCO it would be much easier...

Nothing to stop one ROSCO selling a fleet to another.

However... isn't there an often mentioned issue in that the Southern 455s are set up for driver only operation whereas the SWR ones aren't capable of that? It doesn't sound like something that would be technically difficult to solve, though?

 

[TEW]

Nothing to stop one ROSCO selling a fleet to another.

However... isn't there an often mentioned issue in that the Southern 455s are set up for driver only operation whereas the SWR ones aren't capable of that? It doesn't sound like something that would be technically difficult to solve, though?

The SWR 455s no longer have door controls fitted on the driving desk, although I understand the wiring is still there.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The SWR 455s no longer have door controls fitted on the driving desk, although I understand the wiring is still there.

Thank you, so not really an issue then?

 

[Journeyman]

Thank you, so not really an issue then?

Presumably not. You can probably transplant the relevant equipment from the Southern cabs to the SWR cabs.

 

[A60stock]

Living on the Chessington Branch it's almost entirely 455/456 combo's, regularly giving us 4, 6, 8 or 10 carriage combo's. Occasionally you see two 707's forming a 10 carriage train, but it's currently fairly rare. Not as rare however as the Sunday when a single 456 (2 carriage) appeared on one service, luckily it was a quiet service! I believe the 455 associated with the 456 failed at Waterloo, and the controller decided to continue with just the 456 rather than cancel the service.

Interesting, I have two questions on this:

1. Does anyone know of any previous times when a 2 car 456 has run on any of the "metro" routes where the service should have been a 10/8/6 car service?

2. Why do certain routes e.g. hampton court/chessington/guildford via claygate/woking (yes i know a 707 is sometimes used on some of these) pretty much solely use 455/456? I can imagine some customers may find this a little "unfair" to always have to have the older trains with no aircon, especially in summer

 

[HamworthyGoods]

2. Why do certain routes e.g. hampton court/chessington/guildford via claygate/woking (yes i know a 707 is sometimes used on some of these) pretty much solely use 455/456? I can imagine some customers may find this a little "unfair" to always have to have the older trains with no aircon, especially in summer

Because it’s mostly Windsor side depots who sign 707 stock, Guildford and Farnham depots who work Guildford suburban services for example don’t sign 707s

 

[norbitonflyer]

Interesting, I have two questions on this:

1. Does anyone know of any previous times when a 2 car 456 has run on any of the "metro" routes where the service should have been a 10/8/6 car service?

2. Why do certain routes e.g. hampton court/chessington/guildford via claygate/woking (yes i know a 707 is sometimes used on some of these) pretty much solely use 455/456? I can imagine some customers may find this a little "unfair" to always have to have the older trains with no aircon, especially in summer

An article I read awhile ago mentioned that whilst the Kingston roundabout and Shepperton services each have their own diagrams (on a 3 hour and 2 hour cycle respectively), the routes you cite all share a common diagram - that is, the train forming an incoming Guildford service will leave Waterloo for another destination, e.g Chessington (and indeed the Cobham- and Epsom-routed services also swap over at Guildford). So it may be that there is an issue with the 707s affecting any one of those routes, which therefore prevents their use on all of them.

That the Shepperton line is one of the longest (over an hour, with no fast alternative as Guildford has) may also be a factor in allocating the 707s there. Certainly I see plenty of 455s (not so many 456s) on the rounders at the moment.

 

[swt_passenger]

Interesting, I have two questions on this:

1. Does anyone know of any previous times when a 2 car 456 has run on any of the "metro" routes where the service should have been a 10/8/6 car service?

2. Why do certain routes e.g. hampton court/chessington/guildford via claygate/woking (yes i know a 707 is sometimes used on some of these) pretty much solely use 455/456? I can imagine some customers may find this a little "unfair" to always have to have the older trains with no aircon, especially in summer

I think a part of the reasoning for the “normal” stock allocations was that the 10 car lengthening project was split, routes via Wimbledon were all properly lengthened, but various routes on the Windsor side still have quite a few stations needing SDO. Only 450, 707s and 458/5 have SDO, so that’s where they normally work.

 

[nlogax]

Ah, that would explain it. It's still a rare 'treat' for a 707 to turn up in Surbs as the 455s do still rule the roost here.

 

[Nogoohwell]

As a regular commuter on a 455 and 456, I cant wait to see the end of them. In the summer I would regularly stay at work 15 minutes longer so I could catch the later running 707 with its aircon as the 40 minutes in a tin oven with little air circulating is horrible.

The other thing to notice, if a 455 service left waterloo late, it would always remain late. The 707 services almost always caught up a few minutes thanks to its increased power and more powered bogies. In the mornings during winter, the 707 services tended to run to time (until wimbledon) whereas the 455's would be slipping and sliding nowhere fast.

The final point I would make is safety. In a crash, how much stronger and safer is a 701 coach going to be compared to a MK3 455?

The 455's may have many years life left in them, but that does not mean they should still be used. When I'm paying £17.50 a day to use the train, (and subsequently subsidising other rail operators with the profits) I want the best train possible.

 

[Journeyman]

As a regular commuter on a 455 and 456, I cant wait to see the end of them. In the summer I would regularly stay at work 15 minutes longer so I could catch the later running 707 with its aircon as the 40 minutes in a tin oven with little air circulating is horrible.

The other thing to notice, if a 455 service left waterloo late, it would always remain late. The 707 services almost always caught up a few minutes thanks to its increased power and more powered bogies. In the mornings during winter, the 707 services tended to run to time (until wimbledon) whereas the 455's would be slipping and sliding nowhere fast.

The final point I would make is safety. In a crash, how much stronger and safer is a 701 coach going to be compared to a MK3 455?

The 455's may have many years life left in them, but that does not mean they should still be used. When I'm paying £17.50 a day to use the train, (and subsequently subsidising other rail operators with the profits) I want the best train possible.

You make some very good points there. While the new traction equipment may well last for years, and while there's no doubt the 455s could last a long time yet, there's plenty of reasons as to why that isn't the best outcome, and I have no doubt whatsoever that the Aventras will be vastly superior.

 

[Juniper Driver]

My garden overlooks the line, and saw it on the Down service. Convinced I was mistaken, so went to the station and waited for the corresponding Up service. It definately was a two car, and it was picking up passengers.

Yup obviously can be done as with a 2 car you don't have to stop at the end of the platform as you do when working a ten... With a ten you hit gaps at Motspur Park down road in the road barrier crossing gap and Clapham Junction Platform up road after the starter signal (and on both you've barely got up to 10mph). So you shut off before hitting the gaps…but with a two car you can get a run up into the gap(s) as you don't stop in the same place as a ten car... Probably a few other gaps I've forgotten about like going into and out of Waterloo...

Should have taken a picture as it's so rare... Not that I am doubting you.

 

[Taunton]

1. Does anyone know of any previous times when a 2 car 456 has run on any of the "metro" routes where the service should have been a 10/8/6 car service?

When they previously were running out of Victoria/London Bridge on Southern, they were very extensively used as 2-car trains at weekends. This was equally ludicrous. I can recall Saturday morning passengers who had waited a while at Forest Hill etc being unable to even get in. Meanwhile every track at Selhurst depot was stuffed with stock for the weekend.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I agree that SWT kept theirs in better nick than Southern managed, but as a daily commuter on 455s for most of the past 40 years, the mid-life refurbishment somehow managed to achieve the quadruple of fewer seats, less legroom in the ones that were left, fewer places to "perch", and poor use of the extra standing space. Add to that the "ironing board" seats whose backs were so high and close together it was like being in a coffin, and impossible to hold anything far enough away to be able to read it. Certainly impossible to get in or out of a non-aisle (but not-necessarily-window) seat if someone is esconsed in the gangway seat.

The seats in SWR’s 455s are a long way from ironing boards.