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Covid restrictions - protests/disobedience, and are people just getting fed up with it?

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Bantamzen

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That's not the biggest problem with this suggestion. If you were going to do this, even for just a couple of weeks, how on earth do you expect people to be able to exercise and get fresh air?
True, but I was just challenging the logistical problem of using the army to deliver food to every citizen in the country when chains of supermarkets struggle to offer delivery slots to even a small proportion of the population. Its just about batting away silly suggestions that do not take reality into account.

Also I wouldn't trust this government not to screw up food deliveries. Unless you want everyone to just eat gruel, you'd end up with the delivering meat to vegetarians, nut-based foods to those with nut allergies, foods high in sugar to diabetics, etc etc.
I'm sure some lockdown supporters wouldn't care about such trivialities such as dietary requirements.
 
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Skimpot flyer

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Evidence that they aren’t?

The point is that it might be helpful and there IS some evidence that an infected person may not transmit as much. It also reduces anxiety levels of those worried about the virus.

Again, as I have said before, I hate the things but I get the impression that a good few on here don’t WANT to wear them rather than having any genuine exemption. These people need to grow up.
There is no evidence that wearing odd-coloured socks does not protect against the spread of the virus
 

notlob.divad

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I don't even know where to start with this, but here's a shot. Where's the army resources going to come from to feed 65-67 million people? Remember China has a much larger army proportionally to the UK, and it wasn't the whole of China sealed into their homes.
It isn't going to happen, I never suggested it should happen, would happen, was going to happen, or was in any way feasible. It is certainly not what I would be arguing for or am arguing for. It is however what would be done if you threw out every other consideration and focused soley on getting the NHS back to functioning 100% at pre Coronovirus levels in the shortest time possible. You woul dalso keep it in place significantly longer than the end of the pandemic to reduce the number of other pressures put on the health system such as road traffic indicents, industrial work place incidents etc. and allow the NHS to catch up on the back log of appointments.

That isn't how life works, decisions are a delicate balancing act, it isn't feasible, practical or in anyway desireable, and I have never proposed that it is.

Its just about batting away silly suggestions that do not take reality into account.
It wasn't even a suggestion that needed batting away.
 

nedchester

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There is no evidence that wearing odd-coloured socks does not protect against the spread of the virus
Stupid response and you know it. There's no evidence that you're a virologist!

The issue with Covid is that it is not black and white as some may wish to have it. It is not a case of being in favour of masks or lockdowns or not but a grey area in between.

Many on here are anti-lockdown / anti-mask whatever the circumstances. I agree that there are many other issues caused by lockdowns (mental health particularly) and also cancer appointments being missed. However, if the NHS is overwhelmed due to Covid then those cancer appointments and mental health appointments aren't going to happen. Therefore, it's better when we have 40000 people in hospital to try and get the numbers down by introducing restrictions and that include lockdowns and masks as 'every little helps'.

But of course people claim that masks don't work but hey why not give them a go, they don't do any harm to 99.9% of people. I suspect those claiming that don't do any good actually have little scientific qualifications which is often the case with Covid at the moment.
 

35B

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Same old, same old.

The 'what if' might be believable with a small sample size, but given the number of countries which have imposed mask mandates it is simply not credible that masks work and yet nowhere shows a positive impact or even a change in graph trajectory - with the larger dataset trends are visible, and if there is one at all here it's the opposite of what is claimed.

The 'research evidence' is nearly all syntheses of cherry-picked studies in medical settings or implausible experiments involving hamsters. We've been through all this before repeatedly, including looking at these studies. Please don't cite that awful Oxford-backed one again - the one which claims to demonstrate that masks work in public on the basis of three out of the four studies which they lookeed at (all in medical settings in the far east) showing this.

Things less than a double blind RCT might well be fine if they are reasonable, but studies which look at controlled environments and then claim they prove something about the general public are not. Likewise, evidence that something actually works in practice (e.g. identificable reductions in infections following mask mandates) would be fine as well - but there is no such evidence.

You might regard them as 'low impact' - those of us who can't wear them and are now being treated as toxic filth by a minority of the public would disagree.



Nobody is having a 'toddler tantrum' (apart from some maskivists on encountering someone without a mask).

Supposed scientific interventions should be on the basis of evidence, not 'well, it might work'. Masks are leading to discrimination against people who can't wear them. They are costing a fortune. They are producing many tons of polluting waste containing plastics - all of those are demonstrable reasons not to mandate them. The reasons for are far more woolly and the 'growing evidence' for their effectiveness which the government claimed when imposing the mask mandate back in July has still not appeared.
There is no convincing those who will not be convinced, and we will need to honestly disagree. However, your post demonstrates the truth of my wider point - that we are predisposed to accept information that supports our prior convictions, and discount that which does not.
 

birchesgreen

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The death rate would be 1% without Lockdown, showing there is no easy remedy. You are all wrong with varying other figures. In the Developing world, whore people are not so obese, and not old, it is 0.23%. Hence they think it's a white mans disease. If we can vaccinate many millions, and soon before people lose patience and riot, life will be easier But it may be Bolsanero has a better model for them than Lockdowns, and maybe you might be better at fighting more virulent strains if you had fought off the early strains, rather than hiding the whole population rather than the vulnerable, who knows?
You mean the Brazilian president? Brazil isn't a good model for fighting this virus unless you actually want a country's health system to melt down repeatedly.

I don't even know where to start with this, but here's a shot. Where's the army resources going to come from to feed 65-67 million people? Remember China has a much larger army proportionally to the UK, and it wasn't the whole of China sealed into their homes.
Yeah, the entire armed forces is less than 200k personnel, ok you could probably add a few 10s of thousands of recent departed but its still a small number compared to the task in hand (plus quite a few of these folk will be doing other things).
 

NorthOxonian

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But of course people claim that masks don't work but hey why not give them a go, they don't do any harm to 99.9% of people. I suspect those claiming that don't do any good actually have little scientific qualifications which is often the case with Covid at the moment.
They do considerable harm to everyone, by making communication (particularly non verbal) much more difficult. This effect is even worse for those who might have had difficulties with communication before - if you struggled to understand facial expressions when you could see all of someone's face, what hope do you have now?

As it happens, I'm willing to accept that they may work, but what I'm not willing to accept is that they're harmless. Having said that, this isn't the face coverings thread and I don't want to drag this off topic.
 

nedchester

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They do considerable harm to everyone, by making communication (particularly non verbal) much more difficult. This effect is even worse for those who might have had difficulties with communication before - if you struggled to understand facial expressions when you could see all of someone's face, what hope do you have now?

As it happens, I'm willing to accept that they may work, but what I'm not willing to accept is that they're harmless. Having said that, this isn't the face coverings thread and I don't want to drag this off topic.
As someone who worked in communication for 30 years as a teacher I can tell you it is very important that you see people's faces when they are talking. I think masks are dehumanising for the very reasons you mention BUT I see that there is a reason why they are needed AT THIS CURRENT time.

Wearing them in Tesco's is harmless but if I was still teaching I would have an issue wearing one as a teacher and also the students wearing them in lessons for the reasons you mention.
 

DB

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But of course people claim that masks don't work but hey why not give them a go, they don't do any harm to 99.9% of people. I suspect those claiming that don't do any good actually have little scientific qualifications which is often the case with Covid at the moment.

But many of us do understand enough about stats to be able to look at the actual figures, which show no benefit. Many also known enough about scientific papers to be able to read them and judge whether they are logically consistent and prove their hypothesis, even if we aren't specialists in that particular subject.
 

Bikeman78

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There is no convincing those who will not be convinced, and we will need to honestly disagree. However, your post demonstrates the truth of my wider point - that we are predisposed to accept information that supports our prior convictions, and discount that which does not.
At least the discussion on this forum is reasonably civilised which is more than can be said for the hysteria being churned out on Facebook or occasionally seen in public. The way I see it, if someone wants to wear a mask, good for them. If they don't, who cares? I'm certainly not scared of being close to someone not wearing a mask. It'll be interesting to see if they are still mandatory a year from now and how compliant people are.
 

squizzler

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At least the discussion on this forum is reasonably civilised which is more than can be said for the hysteria being churned out on Facebook or occasionally seen in public. The way I see it, if someone wants to wear a mask, good for them. If they don't, who cares? I'm certainly not scared of being close to someone not wearing a mask. It'll be interesting to see if they are still mandatory a year from now and how compliant people are.
The flaw in your logic is that a mask is like a catalytic converter for your face: for the motorist it increases cost of car and fuel consumption, but with benefits to everyone around. It must therefore be mandatory.

With a mask, it stops possible moisture droplets harbouring bugs from being expelled, but does not catch virusEs in the air from being ingested.
 

DB

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The flaw in your logic is that a mask is like a catalytic converter for your face: for the motorist it increases cost of car and fuel consumption, but with benefits to everyone around. It must therefore be mandatory.

With a mask, it stops possible moisture droplets harbouring bugs from being expelled, but does not catch virusEs in the air.

None of this supposed benefit to others has actually been proven, and in practice there is no evidence that it's happening...
 

Bikeman78

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The flaw in your logic is that a mask is like a catalytic converter for your face: for the motorist it increases cost of car and fuel consumption, but with benefits to everyone around. It must therefore be mandatory.

With a mask, it stops possible moisture droplets harbouring bugs from being expelled, but does not catch virusEs in the air from being ingested.
If it's so obvious, why weren't most people wearing them without it being law? Are Swedish people stupid? Also why did it take until September for it to become law in Wales (for shops)?
 

squizzler

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None of this supposed benefit to others has actually been proven, and in practice there is no evidence that it's happening...
Repeat that as often as you like but it doesn’t become true.
If it's so obvious, why weren't most people wearing them without it being law? Are Swedish people stupid? Also why did it take until September for it to become law in Wales (for shops)?
The obvious (and selfish) optimum is to let everyone else wear one but not bother yourself, since they won’t be expelling germs into your air, and you won’t suffer the discomfort you f wearing one. So it must be made mandatory, motorcar emission control systems being the obvious comparison. People would not have bothered with catalytic converters in their cars if they were an optional extra.
 

DB

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Repeat that as often as you like but it doesn’t become true.

Well, if you have any evidence of masks actually being of benefit in public (relevant scientific studies, that is - not apples-with-oranges comparisons), and/or any stats demonstrating that they do, then please do point us towards them - if you have, you'll be one up on the government who have so far failed to provide anything.
 

bramling

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Stupid response and you know it. There's no evidence that you're a virologist!

The issue with Covid is that it is not black and white as some may wish to have it. It is not a case of being in favour of masks or lockdowns or not but a grey area in between.

Many on here are anti-lockdown / anti-mask whatever the circumstances. I agree that there are many other issues caused by lockdowns (mental health particularly) and also cancer appointments being missed. However, if the NHS is overwhelmed due to Covid then those cancer appointments and mental health appointments aren't going to happen. Therefore, it's better when we have 40000 people in hospital to try and get the numbers down by introducing restrictions and that include lockdowns and masks as 'every little helps'.

But of course people claim that masks don't work but hey why not give them a go, they don't do any harm to 99.9% of people. I suspect those claiming that don't do any good actually have little scientific qualifications which is often the case with Covid at the moment.

It’s worth remembering that last year one deputy CMO went on record as saying they were ineffective, and another went on record outlining a number of reasons why they might in fact create risks which wouldn’t otherwise have existed.

Can you blame people for being sceptical against that backdrop? Especially when masks became an issue only at the point when the government were making some attempt to get people back to work and spending money to support retail.

I’m not sure it was ever the intent for people to get irrationally angry seeing the two people on an otherwise empty train have made the sensible choice that a mask is unnecessary in that situation. Indeed I seem to remember at the start the message was that masks might have some benefit in situations where social distancing is not possible (eg on a crowded peak train). Naturally that’s morphed into “someone at the other end of my carriage isn’t wearing a mask”, which then develops into “this whole situation is all the fault of people not following the rules”. This is all just as irrational as fighting over toilet rolls.
 

DB

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I’m not sure it was ever the intent for people to get irrationally angry seeing the two people on an otherwise empty train have made the sensible choice that a mask is unnecessary in that situation. Indeed I seem to remember at the start the message was that masks might have some benefit in situations where social distancing is not possible (eg on a crowded peak train). Naturally that’s morphed into “someone at the other end of my carriage isn’t wearing a mask”, which then develops into “this whole situation is all the fault of people not following the rules”.

Indeed. And then we later had the 'growing evidence' claim - evidence which seems never to have materialised.

This is all just as irrational as fighting over toilet rolls.

And just as predictable, but the government never seems to think of the likely impacts of their knee-jerk reactions.
 

Yew

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When something is imposed, is it not the responsibility of those imposing it to prove that it has an effect? Otherwise you leave open the window for anything to be imposed on the basis of "well there is no evidence it doesn't work".
Have we tested throwing virgins into appease the volcano god Vulcan?

Indeed



And just as predictable, but the government never seems to think of the likely impacts of their knee-jerk reactions.
Who cares about long term consequences, when there is short term political expediency at stake?
 

MikeWM

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And just as predictable, but the government never seems to think of the likely impacts of their knee-jerk reactions.

Unfortunately I think they are fully aware of what they're doing, and it suits them nicely to have the population at each other's throats rather than directing their anger and frustration at those who deserve it.
 

35B

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It’s worth remembering that last year one deputy CMO went on record as saying they were ineffective, and another went on record outlining a number of reasons why they might in fact create risks which wouldn’t otherwise have existed.

Can you blame people for being sceptical against that backdrop? Especially when masks became an issue only at the point when the government were making some attempt to get people back to work and spending money to support retail.

I’m not sure it was ever the intent for people to get irrationally angry seeing the two people on an otherwise empty train have made the sensible choice that a mask is unnecessary in that situation. Indeed I seem to remember at the start the message was that masks might have some benefit in situations where social distancing is not possible (eg on a crowded peak train). Naturally that’s morphed into “someone at the other end of my carriage isn’t wearing a mask”, which then develops into “this whole situation is all the fault of people not following the rules”. This is all just as irrational as fighting over toilet rolls.
Without defending the responses of others, I find such reliance on the initial advice over any subsequent changes in understanding disconcerting.
 

DB

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Unfortunately I think they are fully aware of what they're doing, and it suits them nicely to have the population at each other's throats rather than directing their anger and frustration at those who deserve it.

In some cases I'm sure you're right - it's become difficult to distinguish these cases from those which are just down to incompetence!

Without defending the responses of others, I find such reliance on the initial advice over any subsequent changes in understanding disconcerting.

Why?

The initial advice was in line with standard practice which had stood for years, and credible explanations were given.

The 'new' advice was given on the basis of claimed 'growing evidence' which never materialised, and despite being enforced by law seems to have had no positive impact.

It's not surprising that many conclude that this was a political action, not one made as a result of actual evidence.
 

Dent

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Without defending the responses of others, I find such reliance on the initial advice over any subsequent changes in understanding disconcerting.

If this "change in understanding" were the result of the emergence of genuine new evidence then you might have a point, but completely changing their dogma for no good reason is less defensible.
 

MikeWM

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Without defending the responses of others, I find such reliance on the initial advice over any subsequent changes in understanding disconcerting.

I'm not sure why. The initial advice was based on years of experience and knowledge. The subsequent changes appear to be entirely due to 'things are bad, we must do something'. Yes, there could be significant new information that also justifies that change, but in the absence of that - and there is a distinct absence of that in this case, despite the repeated claims to the contrary - then it is fair to assume that the conclusions reached when not in the middle of a crisis were probably better.
 

Yew

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In some cases I'm sure you're right - it's become difficult to distinguish these cases from those which are just down to incompetence!



Why?

The initial advice was in line with standard practice which had stood for years, and credible explanations were given.

The 'new' advice was given on the basis of claimed 'growing evidence' which never materialised, and despite being enforced by law seems to have had no positive impact.

It's not surprising that many conclude that this was a political action, not one made as a result of actual evidence.
Indeed, if there is convincing evidence the duces tecum, otherwise, repeal the law.

I'm not sure why. The initial advice was based on years of experience and knowledge. The subsequent changes appear to be entirely due to 'things are bad, we must do something'. Yes, there could be significant new information that also justifies that change, but in the absence of that - and there is a distinct absence of that in this case, despite the repeated claims to the contrary - then it is fair to assume that the conclusions reached when not in the middle of a crisis were probably better.
Indeed, the fact that we have completely abandoned conventional epidemiological thinking with seemingly no critique and examination from the opposition, nor the executive branch of government shows that we are not acting like rational adults, but as scared children.
 

bramling

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Without defending the responses of others, I find such reliance on the initial advice over any subsequent changes in understanding disconcerting.

Why? The initial advice was based on many years of experience. Suddenly this was all thrown in the bin, coincidentally at the time when they were attempting to cajole people back to work.

It also seems pretty logical to me that, having spent the first half of last year being told not to touch the face, we then are told to put on something which is essentially a germ receptacle, for which it’s all-nigh impossible outside of a sterile medical setting to comply with all the associated requirements for its correct use.

Then there’s the psychological issue that some people seem to feel that masks are a substitute for social distancing, which was never intended to be the case except in situations where social distancing couldn’t be achieved - eg a crowded peak time train. The scientists have consistently remained of the opinion that social distancing is far more valuable, yet elements of the population seem far more fixated on masks. Apart from Biden, there never seems to have been much of a suggestion that masks are any more useful than that they “might have a small benefit in certain situations”.
 

DB

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Indeed, the fact that we have completely abandoned conventional epidemiological thinking with seemingly no critique and examination from the opposition, nor the executive branch of government shows that we are not acting like rational adults, but as scared children.

It's even worse than that - Sweden, an unusual example of a country which has followed the conventional wisdom, has been accused of mounting an 'experiment', which is claimed to have 'failed' every time they see a case increase (ignoring that they are still faring far better than many countries with lockdowns).

Hardly anybody in politics or the media is pointing out that the whole lockdowns-and-restrictions strategy is the 'experiment' (it goes against all previous pandemic plans), and despite the stats showing that countries which have followed this do no better (and often worse) than those which don't, nobody points out that it is this 'experiment' which has demonstrably 'failed'. And the damage caused by it is already considerable and certain to increase a lot more in the coming months. But for most governments who have followed this route, it's now far too late to chance track without massive loss of credibility, so they continue with their highly damaging strategy.
 

DustyBin

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I see Sir Desmond Swayne is being well and truly pilloried by the media and politicians from across the board. It feels very much like silencing dissenters to me which is worrying. I expect anybody who doesn't tow the party line going forward to receive similar treatment.
 

TheBeard

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But J 'Unt and Prof PAntsdown wanted to do all this with Swine Flu
Anyone remember that?
But this is a worse disease. Vaccination will preserve the lives of a half million or so. Society and our govt have agreed this was a sacrifice worth paying, But what price every life next year/car crashes/dangerous planes to Spain, smoking, drinking.
It's all going on with your hard fought freedoms now. That's what disturbs us.
 

yorksrob

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I see Sir Desmond Swayne is being well and truly pilloried by the media and politicians from across the board. It feels very much like silencing dissenters to me which is worrying. I expect anybody who doesn't tow the party line going forward to receive similar treatment.

Lockdown Labour are jumping on the bandwagon even more comprehensively.
 

35B

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I'm not sure why. The initial advice was based on years of experience and knowledge. The subsequent changes appear to be entirely due to 'things are bad, we must do something'. Yes, there could be significant new information that also justifies that change, but in the absence of that - and there is a distinct absence of that in this case, despite the repeated claims to the contrary - then it is fair to assume that the conclusions reached when not in the middle of a crisis were probably better.
It's even worse than that - Sweden, an unusual example of a country which has followed the conventional wisdom, has been accused of mounting an 'experiment', which is claimed to have 'failed' every time they see a case increase (ignoring that they are still faring far better than many countries with lockdowns).

Hardly anybody in politics or the media is pointing out that the whole lockdowns-and-restrictions strategy is the 'experiment' (it goes against all previous pandemic plans), and despite the stats showing that countries which have followed this do no better (and often worse) than those which don't, nobody points out that it is this 'experiment' which has demonstrably 'failed'. And the damage caused by it is already considerable and certain to increase a lot more in the coming months. But for most governments who have followed this route, it's now far too late to chance track without massive loss of credibility, so they continue with their highly damaging strategy.
Why? The initial advice was based on many years of experience. Suddenly this was all thrown in the bin, coincidentally at the time when they were attempting to cajole people back to work.

It also seems pretty logical to me that, having spent the first half of last year being told not to touch the face, we then are told to put on something which is essentially a germ receptacle, for which it’s all-nigh impossible outside of a sterile medical setting to comply with all the associated requirements for its correct use.

Then there’s the psychological issue that some people seem to feel that masks are a substitute for social distancing, which was never intended to be the case except in situations where social distancing couldn’t be achieved - eg a crowded peak time train. The scientists have consistently remained of the opinion that social distancing is far more valuable, yet elements of the population seem far more fixated on masks. Apart from Biden, there never seems to have been much of a suggestion that masks are any more useful than that they “might have a small benefit in certain situations”.
There are fair comments in there, and I agree that the "something must be done" mentality has been and still is an issue. In particular, though I broadly agree with the current policy approach as a necessary evil, I share @bramling's severe dislike for the way that some have fixed on the single measure of mask wearing as all important, and have lost sense of proportion in the process. I also agree that it has a significant effect on many peoples' mental health, and that the impact on education is serious.

However, I find the desire to use Sweden as a comparator troubling given it's poor performance comparative with relatively similar Nordic neighbours. I also take issue with the idea that the current measures throw away epidemiological thinking and experience given that the robust use of contact tracing, isolation of possible contacts, and preventative mask wearing has formed a key part of the relative success of places like Taiwan, Singapore, New Zealand and Australia.

In that context, I stand by my observation that I find it surprising that positions outlined almost a year ago are being treated as somehow definitive, and changes since then are being ignored.
 
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