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Covid restrictions - protests/disobedience, and are people just getting fed up with it?

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DB

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However, I find the desire to use Sweden as a comparator troubling given it's poor performance comparative with relatively similar Nordic neighbours. I also take issue with the idea that the current measures throw away epidemiological thinking and experience given that the robust use of contact tracing, isolation of possible contacts, and preventative mask wearing has formed a key part of the relative success of places like Taiwan, Singapore, New Zealand and Australia.

Still ignoring the distinction between countries which prevented it becoming endemic and those which didn't, I see, and the point that patterns need to be looked at across more than a chosen two or three countries. It's easy to find examples of neighbouring countries with differing numbers - e.g France and Germany, or England and Northern Ireland. Doesn't demonstrate anything about the relative measures, other than that there is no correlation between the outcome and the level of restrictions. Looked at across Europe, there is no correlation whatsoever between the level of restriction and the number of cases, and the worst in terms of cases have all had vicious restrictions.

There is also no evidence that masks have had any impact in the countries you mention (Taiwan, etc) - all of them closed their borders before it became endemic, and all of them used severe tactics to suppress it. What happens when they open borders again is another matter - vaccines will no doubt help, but won't render them immune from the impacts.

In that context, I stand by my observation that I find it surprising that positions outlined almost a year ago are being treated as somehow definitive, and changes since then are being ignored.

The only one ignoring things is you!

Many of us have pointed out that the changes since then have been political, not driven by any change in understanding. We have invited you to provide this evidence which you claim exists, and you have not done so - you have just continued to express 'surprise' that we don't agree with you.
 
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Bantamzen

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In that context, I stand by my observation that I find it surprising that positions outlined almost a year ago are being treated as somehow definitive, and changes since then are being ignored.
You've mentioned this a few times, but from what I can see you haven't explained what positions you are referring to. Could you expand?
 

DustyBin

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There are fair comments in there, and I agree that the "something must be done" mentality has been and still is an issue. In particular, though I broadly agree with the current policy approach as a necessary evil, I share @bramling's severe dislike for the way that some have fixed on the single measure of mask wearing as all important, and have lost sense of proportion in the process. I also agree that it has a significant effect on many peoples' mental health, and that the impact on education is serious.

However, I find the desire to use Sweden as a comparator troubling given it's poor performance comparative with relatively similar Nordic neighbours. I also take issue with the idea that the current measures throw away epidemiological thinking and experience given that the robust use of contact tracing, isolation of possible contacts, and preventative mask wearing has formed a key part of the relative success of places like Taiwan, Singapore, New Zealand and Australia.

In that context, I stand by my observation that I find it surprising that positions outlined almost a year ago are being treated as somehow definitive, and changes since then are being ignored.

But has Sweden really performed THAT poorly compared with it's neighbours?
 

nedchester

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Yet another selective literature review, not primary research...
Is that you answer to everything? You get presented with evidential research and you dismiss it.......oh well keep your head in the sand then but make sure it doesn't cover your face!

What sort of evidence for you need? Many scientific theories are still that. For example, the structure of the atom is still a theory because no-one has actually seen the inside of the atom but the evidence points that way.
 

nedchester

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That's from July last year. The fact that they've taken six months to get it published doesn't indicate that it's a high quality study that makes a slam-dunk argument on anything
Scientific papers go for review and take time before publication, hence the delay.

Uh huh, have you even begun to check the references in that piece. The evidence starts to fall apart really quickly.
There are none so blind as those who will not see..................
 

Yew

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However, I find the desire to use Sweden as a comparator troubling given it's poor performance comparative with relatively similar Nordic neighbours. I also take issue with the idea that the current measures throw away epidemiological thinking and experience given that the robust use of contact tracing, isolation of possible contacts, and preventative mask wearing has formed a key part of the relative success of places like Taiwan, Singapore, New Zealand and Australia.
Because comparing Sweden to other nordic countries that haven't had the virus in widespread endemic circulation is a silly comparison to make.

The UK's pandemic plans explicitly advised against contract tracing, as it has never been show to work, and is unworkable once the virus is in widespread enough to be an actual issue.

Overall, it seems like there's not an understanding that you do some things in the early stages, before the virus is in widespread circulation, and then do different actions once it is.
 

nedchester

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Indeed, especially those who post what they believe to be proof, when clearly one can see it isn't with only a cursory examination.
There is a difference between proof and an indication that the matter in hand is contributory to evidence which it is. I can see that.

Of course maybe you'd like to offer 'proof' that masks are not helpful.
 

DB

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That's from July last year. The fact that they've taken six months to get it published doesn't indicate that it's a high quality study that makes a slam-dunk argument on anything

Just had a quick read through it, and it's an entirely typical example of its type - there have been loads like this: secondary research, which appear to start from the conclusion and use assorted tenuous arguments to try to prove their point. The fact that it was written in July, and six months on (despite many coutries following the policies set out in papers such as this) there is no actual evidence of masks having the effects which these researchers claim speaks volumes.

There is some awful drivel in that paper too - e.g.

Creating New Symbolism around Wearing a Mask.​

Ritual and solidarity are important in human societies and can combine with visible signals to shape new societal behaviors (119, 120). Universal mask wearing could serve as a visible signal and reminder of the pandemic. Signaling participation in health behaviors by wearing a mask as well as visible enforcement can increase compliance with public mask wearing, but also other important preventative behaviors (121). Historically, epidemics are a time of fear, confusion, and helplessness (122, 123). Mask wearing, and even mask making or distribution, can provide feelings of empowerment and self-efficacy (124)

So - how many of you have experienced feeings of empowerment and self-efficacy as a result of wearing a mask in Tesco?
 

takno

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So - how many of you have experienced feeings of empowerment and self-efficacy as a result of wearing a mask in Tesco?
Clearly some people have gained sufficient feelings of empowerment that they now have the self-confidence to abuse people who are exempt
 

nedchester

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So - how many of you have experienced feeings of empowerment and self-efficacy as a result of wearing a mask in Tesco?
I just pop one on entering the store and take it off when I come out. Job done groceries bought. Every Little Helps..........
 

Yew

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Clearly some people have gained sufficient feelings of empowerment that they now have the self-confidence to abuse people who are exempt
How can a measure forced upon people through legislation and coercive measures ever cause empowerment.
 

Bantamzen

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There is a difference between proof and an indication that the matter in hand is contributory to evidence which it is. I can see that.
Yeah again, you might want to read some of the references. As the kids would say, sketchy....

Of course maybe you'd like to offer 'proof' that masks are not helpful.
Once again, it is the responsibility of those mandating masks to prove their efficiency, not the other way around. Humanity has survived somewhere between 2-3 million years, including being exposed to far worse viruses than this one. So, to me, to you....

I just pop one on entering the store and take it off when I come out. Job done groceries bought. Every Little Helps..........
You do like a cliché or hook line don't you?
 

DB

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Yeah again, you might want to read some of the references. As the kids would say, sketchy....

I think that actually in describing this as secondary research I was perhaps being generous - it may be closer to tertiary research, given that it's a literature review which uses previous literature reviews to validate a lot of the points it makes.
 

notlob.divad

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So - how many of you have experienced feeings of empowerment and self-efficacy as a result of wearing a mask in Tesco?
I feel empowered whilst wearing my mask. Even if it does very little to nothing, at least it feels like I am trying to do something for the good of my fellow human being. Far better than clapping, banging pots once a week, or ranting on a railway message board about how masks are useless and social distancing

If somone can show me evidence that they do actual harm, rather than theorising that they have no impact, then of course I will be willing to challenge my view.
 

nedchester

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I feel empowered whilst wearing my mask. Even if it does very little to nothing, at least it feels like I am trying to do something for the good of my fellow human being. Far better than clapping, banging pots once a week, or ranting on a railway message board about how masks are useless and social distancing

If somone can show me evidence that they do actual harm, rather than theorising that they have no impact, then of course I will be willing to challenge my view.
And that's the point I was trying to make but obviously some take it as an affront to their civil liberties or maybe they don't wish to cover up their stunning good looks....... :D
 

Yew

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I feel empowered whilst wearing my mask. Even if it does very little to nothing, at least it feels like I am trying to do something for the good of my fellow human being. Far better than clapping, banging pots once a week, or ranting on a railway message board about how masks are useless and social distancing

If somone can show me evidence that they do actual harm, rather than theorising that they have no impact, then of course I will be willing to challenge my view.
Good for you, but if you can't prove beyond reasonable doubt that they do anything, then don't force others to wear them.
 

takno

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I feel empowered whilst wearing my mask. Even if it does very little to nothing, at least it feels like I am trying to do something for the good of my fellow human being. Far better than clapping, banging pots once a week, or ranting on a railway message board about how masks are useless and social distancing

If somone can show me evidence that they do actual harm, rather than theorising that they have no impact, then of course I will be willing to challenge my view.
Surely you could feel.even prouder of yourself if you were doing it of your own volition rather than because of an arbitrary and unjustified law?
 

Yew

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And that's the point I was trying to make but obviously some take it as an affront to their civil liberties or maybe they don't wish to cover up their stunning good looks....... :D
I prefer to play my part by ensuring that decisions are based on facts and evidence, rather than people 'feeling like they're making a difference'
 

Bantamzen

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I feel empowered whilst wearing my mask. Even if it does very little to nothing, at least it feels like I am trying to do something for the good of my fellow human being. Far better than clapping, banging pots once a week, or ranting on a railway message board about how masks are useless and social distancing

If somone can show me evidence that they do actual harm, rather than theorising that they have no impact, then of course I will be willing to challenge my view.
If you really want to feel empowered, you could start by writing to your local MP and local councillors about the chronic lack of capacity in the NHS, particularly ICU compared to some of our European neighbours. After that you could try to rally other people to do so, maybe join groups with similar ends, create your own, or if you really want to make a difference consider actually moving into politics, or at least supporting someone who is.

Or you could continue to signal your virtues by trying to convince others that you wear a bit of cloth over your face "for the good" of others.
 

Bertie the bus

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Once again, it is the responsibility of those mandating masks to prove their efficiency, not the other way around. Humanity has survived somewhere between 2-3 million years, including being exposed to far worse viruses than this one. So, to me, to you....
That is only true for the tiny percentage of people who seem to be totally obsessed with masks. To the vast majority if it might do some good then that is good enough. That’s why we wear one when we’re supposed to and don’t look for any excuse not to wear one.
 

nedchester

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I prefer to play my part by ensuring that decisions are based on facts and evidence, rather than people 'feeling like they're making a difference'
Any other laws that you might wish to disagree with while you're at it? There's a few I'm not too happy with but hey I have to go along with it.

As for evidence, there's seems evidence on here that a good number on here are not really exempt but more a case of throwing a strop.

That is only true for the tiny percentage of people who seem to be totally obsessed with masks. To the vast majority if it might do some good then that is good enough. That’s why we wear one when we’re supposed to and don’t look for any excuse not to wear one.
Exactly. As I say I hate the things but I assert that those claimed they can't wear them actually mean they don't want to. As soon as they are not needed mine will be going in the bin because I hate wearing them
 
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Bantamzen

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That is only true for the tiny percentage of people who seem to be totally obsessed with masks. To the vast majority if it might do some good then that is good enough. That’s why we wear one when we’re supposed to and don’t look for any excuse not to wear one.
"It might do some good". That probably needs a huge monument erecting to celebrate it. Except there's a problem, it has triggered an actual law to mandate something that "might help". Not through actual evidence, but a supposition. You can get fined, perhaps even jailed on a supposition mandated by authorities.

If you can't see the problem with that I genuinely am concerned for you.

(Clue, think Middle Ages)
 

DB

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As for evidence, there's plenty of evidence on here that a good number on here are not really exempt but more a case of throwing a strop.

If you are going to make potentially slanderous comments like that, can you please identify a) who you are referring to, and b) what this 'plenty of evidence' is.

Thanks
 

duncanp

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Imperial College are banging their war drums again this morning, calling for an even stricter lockdown off the back of their react study.

Perhaps they should read this article from The Spectator

The percentage testing positive in the Imperial College REACT study was 1.58%, which is below the 5% level at which the WHO considers a pandemic to be under control.




There was very gloomy news this week. ‘Coronavirus infections are not falling in England, latest REACT findings show,’ said a press release from Imperial College. It was widely covered in the press in this vein: Covid levels ‘may even have risen’ since the latest lockdown, BBC news reported. This reignited fears that further tighter lockdown measures might be needed to contain it. It was all a result of Imperial College's latest REACT study of Covid-19 infections, a massive study of 143,000 people and one of the biggest Covid surveys around. So its findings - and talk of rising cases - were taken very seriously. And understandably so. Covid restriction support group conversation

The study’s author, moreover, was adamant that the virus has had a resurgence. ‘Across this round of the study we’ve seen that the number of infected people has remained high and we have no good evidence that infections are falling in England,’ Professor Steven Riley said. ‘We are working to better understand why we are seeing these trends when the country is in lockdown, including studying the new variant, so that policymakers can respond urgently to help bring infections down and save lives.’

Prof Riley’s words were quite clear. The notion that the new mutation is so potent that it has made lockdown pointless is frightening and depressing in equal measure. But does it stand up to scrutiny? No. The opposite, in fact, is the case: there is good evidence that the current lockdown is working better than the second lockdown in November.

The latest results from the REACT study fit in with modelling we carry out here at Bristol University showing that active infections in England have been continuously falling since the third lockdown was introduced on 6 January. This all throws an interesting light on the reporting of the pandemic: why did no one spot, earlier, that Imperial’s conclusion is clearly contradicted by the falling trend of new cases shown on the government's coronavirus dashboard?

The Imperial study is extensive, and clearly expensive. The 143,000 people were given throat and nose swabs over a period from 6 to 15 January. Of these, just under 2,000 tested positive. On this basis, researchers calculated that 1.58 per cent of England's population had an active infection during the time of their study. Which, as a share of the general population, would be 893,000. This is well below the 1.12 million that were estimated to have the virus on 30 December by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) – in other words, this indicates a fall.

The authors of the REACT report say they saw ‘worrying suggestions of a recent uptick’ in infections. But identifying a trend within a sample that contains only a few days' data is deeply problematic. Why? Because short-term, random fluctuations will disguise any consistent long-term movement, as the figures are moving up and down continually anyway. The authors themselves admit this limitation. There are now a few studies estimating Covid levels. We have figures for people who get tested, but REACT and the ONS do a kind of viral opinion poll, testing a huge sample and using that to estimate levels in the whole population. Crucially, these samples are taken a month (sometimes more) apart. So the REACT survey that made so many headlines missed out the period between 3 December and 6 January.


As the above chart shows, the REACT lack of coverage coincided with the more infectious new B.117 variant getting into its stride and, of course, it included the Christmas period, which experts forecast would be a time of high transmission. So while the ONS and REACT surveys provide very useful data, the value of the information is reduced because of its intermittent nature. The measurements, moreover, are typically ten days out of date when they land. This makes both sets of data unreliable for tackling a virus that, as we have constantly seen, can grow extremely rapidly in a very short space of time.

There is an alternative. At the University of Bristol, we have developed a predictor-corrector coronavirus model, known as the PCCF. It has been going for a while now and its track record is pretty impressive: it’s the kind of thing you can consult to help work out whether the virus level is going up or down. Using fairly simple mathematical models, the PCCF reconciles the official, daily figures for ‘cases by date reported’ with the survey figures that are produced at intervals by the ONS and the REACT studies. The PCCF is then able to produce a continuous trace of how many active infections there are in England on any date, as shown on the Chart below.


The chart shows that the ONS numbers, the REACT figures and the PCCF curve all tell pretty much the same story: active cases plateaued in early November; then they fell in the second half of the month, but picked up strongly in December as England came out of its second lockdown and the effects of the B.117 strain kicked in. Cases peaked in early January - and then started a long fall during our third lockdown. All of the data - even the REACT study - appears to support this conclusion. A peak in infections around the time of the new year and a steady fall thereafter. Covid levels are high: there is nothing in these figures to give anyone reason to drop their guard. But the real story is the opposite of that in the Imperial/React headline: Coronavirus infections are falling in England. Let us hope that this trend continues.
 

DB

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That is only true for the tiny percentage of people who seem to be totally obsessed with masks. To the vast majority if it might do some good then that is good enough. That’s why we wear one when we’re supposed to and don’t look for any excuse not to wear one.

And that's why this country is paralysed by a plethora of mostly-pointless restrictions: because the population has gone along with it and ignored the very real harms which are being caused by these measures which might do some good (but mostly do the opposite).
 
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