But there are 9 Dorises from Doncaster doing occasional trips for every 1 Steve from HR (who'll be doing less trips post-Covid)
(Apologies for genderising!)
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Modern Railways: LNER and compulsory reservations
- Thread starter Bletchleyite
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But there are 9 Dorises from Doncaster doing occasional trips for every 1 Steve from HR (who'll be doing less trips post-Covid)
(Apologies for genderising!)
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R
RailUK Forums
I don't disagree, I'm just not sure that compulsory reservations (especially long-term) is the solution. If the 80/20 rule holds (it usually does) then a lot of passengers will come back with minimal effort and once restrictions ease. Chasing that last 20% just doesn't seem like it'll be worth it
The one certainty right now is that demand will *not* be what it was before.
So your solution to this is to institute a system which will alienate far more passengers than it gains?
At the moment, I am travelling with work to an extent and am avoiding LNER and XC completely (fortunately the usual places I go are also served by TPE and / or Northern. If I have to do a journey where LNER or XC is the only option I will probably take a pool car because I won't know when I'm coming back and don't want the hassle. I doubt if I'm alone in this. That's custom the railways will lose with a policy of compulsory reservations.
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Well they can reserve a seat, and if they are really concerned about a train being overcrowded they will probably look for quieter times to travel.
I can think of plenty of times over the years when I have had to stand or scramble for a seat on a busy afternoon or evening train out of London or Birmingham, on a turn up go for the next train basis, under compulsory reservation I more than likely wouldn't be traveling at all or have to try and plan well in advance which train I intend to be on.
As it as I avoid XC on the basis of potentially chucking you out of your seat mid journey for a late reservation, the more barriers to travel there are means the temptation is just to avoid train travel altogether and stick with the car.
Robertj21a
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So, presumably, you'd be the first to agree that compulsory reservations are actually a massive deterrent ?
I'm suggesting that it is the walk up passengers with absolutely zero ability to reserve who are, in fact, niche in all of this that, perhaps, the railway is wrongly prioritising.
bramling
Veteran Member
Evidence for this?
Except that's not the reality, and not likely to be. Each Doris from Doncaster is still only going to travel once or twice a hear, whereas each Steve from HR will probably be back in the office at least two or three days a week in due course, so he's still more significant to the railways.
I'm suggesting more passengers might actually prefer them overall than dislike them.
43096
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So the solution to fewer passengers is to implement a system that is designed for when there are too many passengers by preventing turn-up-and-go passengers from travelling.
Presumably you don't see the supreme irony in that.
Afraid that's nonsense. There are many, many people who don't know exactly when they will need to travel, especially when returning from work - and if compulsory reservations means that they can't use the train they want to (which it will out of a number of cities at normal ened of work time) that's a massive deterrent.
bramling
Veteran Member
This argument just doesn’t stand up. The ability to reserve already exists, so why would you want to change from a situation which quite adequately caters for both situations, to one which caters for only one group?
In any case, most bad experiences of packed trains / unable to reach reserved seat will be during disruption, and compulsory reservations won’t solve that. In fact, it might make it worse as you’ll have the potential for hoards of angry people whose own booked train is cancelled potentially being denied boarding another. That’s hardly like to encourage people to repeat the experience! The solution would then be to abandon reservations, as tends to happen today, then guess what we’re back to square one!
Admittedly for travel to work journeys, but rail has a 10% share of the national market (Page 4).
How many is "many"? Do these outweigh the market to whom compulsory reservations appeal to?
This does, of course, assume you have an App, and a phone!
Robertj21a
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Do you have much real experience of general family life, businessmen with flexible requirements or even the most basic requirements of many rail travellers?
That's not an answer to the question asked.
Let's recap - your concern is that some people are put off by a small number of trains being so crowded that they can't get to their booked seat. And the solutiuon to this is to reduce the capacity of all trains with certain operators, while at the same time increasing the number of people who are travelling by train. Have I got that right?
Yes, 3 kids. Which, if anything, means trains home from meetings *have* to be fixed for childcare reasons.
I also know that "businessmen" is very outdated terminology for the modern work environment.
No, capacity of all trains remains the same. You just have to pick your train at least 5 minutes before. That's it.
No it doesn't - you've already told us that only 'limited' standing passengers should be allowed, so that'a reduction.
Fares reform might make long distance season tickets irrelevant anyway.
In practice, most long distance trains aren't loaded beyond a small number of standees anyway (XC excepted - but that needs more capacity anyway). My proposal just sorts out the worst trains.
You might want to look at short-distance travel on the ECML in normal circumstances. For example, you could try Doncaster to York on a Friday afternoon - and there are plenty of other examples.
Not sure what the maximum number of people I've shared a Mk4 vesibule with for that journey is, but it's a lot - considerably more than your limited standing allocation would allow. And the train before would have been similar, and the one afterwards, and the one after that.
Or anything south of York on a Sunday afternoon / evening, and so on...
Mintona
Established Member
I don’t mind compulsory reservations for extra trains - for example during the Edinburgh festival trains between London and Edinburgh can be very busy. If LNER were to run an extra train from London to Edinburgh calling nowhere else (except a crew change at Newcastle) then I can see merits to making that train compulsory reservation. You’re basically making it an aeroplane.
However, for regular run of the mill services - absolutely not. What happens when the 19.00 to Leeds is cancelled and the 20.00 and 21.00 are fully reserved, should the passengers for the 19.00 have to spend the night in London?
However, for regular run of the mill services - absolutely not. What happens when the 19.00 to Leeds is cancelled and the 20.00 and 21.00 are fully reserved, should the passengers for the 19.00 have to spend the night in London?
And I wonder how many long distance passengers paying higher fares get put off by crowding caused by passengers making short journeys on cheap fares?
The Stag Do market from York to Donny on a Saturday evening was hardly a shining example of the appeal of rail travel.
This is an entirely unsurprising 'development'. LNER have shown their disdain for walk-up passengers in many ways. From removing long-standing permitted routes (e.g. Edinburgh to London via the WCML) to eliminating return tickets, and now this.
Clearly they think they are an airline lumbered with serving such piddling intermediate stations as Stevenage, Peterborough, Doncaster and Berwick. Eminently the inconvenience caused to local passengers doesn't register with them.
What point is there in having a turn up and go frequency if you can't just jump on whichever train you like? Many of the ludicrous walk-up fares are supposedly justified by the high frequency on offer. Not much use if next 2 hours' (or the rest of the day's) trains are fully booked...
The only step remaining in their master plan to make all passengers buy Advance tickets is to eliminate walk-up tickets entirely.
I'm sure they'll soon make a start on that by restricting the ability of walk-up ticket holders to get reservations, e.g. reserving an ever increasing number of carriages and seats for Advance tickets. Trains will be "fully booked" even though Advance tickets are still available.
Clearly they think they are an airline lumbered with serving such piddling intermediate stations as Stevenage, Peterborough, Doncaster and Berwick. Eminently the inconvenience caused to local passengers doesn't register with them.
What point is there in having a turn up and go frequency if you can't just jump on whichever train you like? Many of the ludicrous walk-up fares are supposedly justified by the high frequency on offer. Not much use if next 2 hours' (or the rest of the day's) trains are fully booked...
The only step remaining in their master plan to make all passengers buy Advance tickets is to eliminate walk-up tickets entirely.
I'm sure they'll soon make a start on that by restricting the ability of walk-up ticket holders to get reservations, e.g. reserving an ever increasing number of carriages and seats for Advance tickets. Trains will be "fully booked" even though Advance tickets are still available.
More likely to be the other way round - a lot of the long-distance passengers will be on advance tickets, whereas those on shorter journeys on walk-up tickets.
So what's your solution? Basically tell anyone wanting to tracel short distances that they aren't welcome and should drive in future?
I think Doncaster to York walk-up might actually be among the most expensive tickets in the country by distance and time taken. At one time, there was no off-peak day return available and the cheapest way was actually a York-Sheffield off-peak day return (that flow is priced by Northern, not the ECML operator). They did subsequently introduce an off-peak return, but presumably only for their own benefit, not that of their passengers (can't remember which operator it was at the time).
An Advance single from Edinburgh to London still costs more than a Doncaster to York Off Peak Day Return.
Short distance passengers are welcome, it just involves choosing your train at least 5 minutes before (which most people do anyway)
Dr Hoo
Established Member
Genuine question (as one who hardly has any apps beyond the default ones that the phone came with): Do you need a separate app for each train operator to deal with reservations? Given my location I was (pre-covid) a regular user of EMR, CrossCountry, TransPennine, Avanti and TfW (and Northern, of course, but I assume that they would never need compulsory reservations). Or can it be done through 'National Rail' regardless of how a ticket might have been purchased?
It would admittedly help immensely if it could be done through a single App (e.g. if you miss the LNER service from York to Newcastle you can shift yourself to XC or TPE instead)
It always seems faintly absurd at Leeds to see the LNER Harrogate extensions displayed with “You MUST have a seat reservation to use this service“ - it’s not as if there’s much recourse if somebody was found onboard without.
A few months ago I bent the rules travelling with a London - Leeds single when it occurred to me that I’d be on the evening Bradford service and it would be slightly more convenient for me to carry on to Shipley, so I bought a Leeds-Shipley single with no reservation. My ticket wasn’t checked after Leeds and there were no consequences- I think the number of people on the whole train was in single figures.
The journeys I tend to make with them tend to be on advances anyway- the only otheir times I’ve used a walk up have been between Wakefield and Doncaster- but I do wonder whether mandatory reservations are compatible in the long term with LNER being part of the West Yorkshire ticketing schemes.
A few months ago I bent the rules travelling with a London - Leeds single when it occurred to me that I’d be on the evening Bradford service and it would be slightly more convenient for me to carry on to Shipley, so I bought a Leeds-Shipley single with no reservation. My ticket wasn’t checked after Leeds and there were no consequences- I think the number of people on the whole train was in single figures.
The journeys I tend to make with them tend to be on advances anyway- the only otheir times I’ve used a walk up have been between Wakefield and Doncaster- but I do wonder whether mandatory reservations are compatible in the long term with LNER being part of the West Yorkshire ticketing schemes.
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