Potential HS2 services

[Purple Orange]

Don’t need calls at so many places between Stockport and Macclesfield

I’d have thought that too, but it is a service that is being considered. Personally I’d limit long distance services quite a bit and prioritise stoppers between from Piccadilly to Stoke & Crewe via Stockport. Levenshulme, Heaton Chapel & Cheadle Hume are areas that should easily be able to fill 6-8 trains per hour, while Handforth, Alderley Edge, Bramhall & Poynton should be able to satisfy 3-4 trains per hour. These are the urban areas that comprise south Manchester.

 

[HST43257]

I’d have thought that too, but it is a service that is being considered. Personally I’d limit long distance services quite a bit and prioritise stoppers between from Piccadilly to Stoke & Crewe via Stockport.

2 stoppers

4 fasts
1tph TPE route to South West (XC)
1tph Huddersfield to London (HS2)
1tph Manchester to London (AWC)
1tph Manchester to Bristol (XC)

Stop the Manchester to London and the Manchester to Bristol at Cheadle Hulme and Congleton, but not Bramhall & Poynton

Levenshulme, Heaton Chapel & Cheadle Hume are areas that should easily be able to fill 6-8 trains per hour, while Handforth, Alderley Edge, Bramhall & Poynton should be able to satisfy 3-4 trains per hour. These are the urban areas that comprise south Manchester.

Castlefield not specified, just manchester

2tph Manchester to Stoke
2tph Manchester to Crewe via Handford
2tph Manchester to Alderley Edge (peak only)
2tph Manchester to Crewe via Styal (if that works alongside TT)

 

[Purple Orange]

2 stoppers

4 fasts
1tph TPE route to South West (XC)
1tph Huddersfield to London (HS2)
1tph Manchester to London (AWC)
1tph Manchester to Bristol (XC)

Stop the Manchester to London and the Manchester to Bristol at Cheadle Hulme and Congleton, but not Bramhall & Poynton


Castlefield not specified, just manchester

2tph Manchester to Stoke
2tph Manchester to Crewe via Handford
2tph Manchester to Alderley Edge (peak only)
2tph Manchester to Crewe via Styal (if that works alongside TT)

So what your suggesting there is, after HS2 has opened, there will be very little uplift in capacity on commuter trains, but we should keep serving the markets that HS2 deals with? Huddersfield will never get a HS2 path avoiding Manchester. That line will be filled with NPR trains, which will be via Huddersfield as there isn’t a cat in hells chance the line via Bradford will be funded. Also by 2030, the Wilmslow-Styal-Manchester airport line will be given over to Metrolink tram-train, do there won’t be the paths for a Manchester-Crewe via Styal.

 

[HST43257]

So what your suggesting there is, after HS2 has opened, there will be very little uplift in capacity on commuter trains, but we should keep serving the markets that HS2 deals with? Huddersfield will never get a HS2 path avoiding Manchester. That line will be filled with NPR trains, which will be via Huddersfield as there isn’t a cat in hells chance the line via Bradford will be funded. Also by 2030, the Wilmslow-Styal-Manchester airport line will be given over to Metrolink tram-train, do there won’t be the paths for a Manchester-Crewe via Styal.

Ok, in that case, the 2tph peak only to Alderley Edge can go all the way, but still peak only.

Also, I talk as if NPR via Bradford will happen, so there’d only be a few TPE services every hour, perhaps including services via Wakefield and Stockport as well.

 

[6Gman]

East Didsbury does not justify a London service. Next thing you're going to be suggesting is diverting the Lancaster to London HS2 semifast via Ormskirk or something.

Reopen The Whelley and the Royal Scot could call at Chorley!

 

[Hey 3]

Wilmslow isn't that big a place, but serves as a railhead for the Cheshire affluenti, who can equally drive to the Airport station instead.

Nobody would use it between London and Manchester or between Crewe and Manchester because the services running on HS2 throughout would be far quicker. People might use it between London and Crewe but there would be plenty of alternatives if it wasn't there.

So that service would essentially be catering for those Wilmslow passengers who don't transfer to the Airport station, plus Stockport. Unlikely to be worth delaying another train for a split/join, blocking one of the few platforms at Crewe with access to the Manchester line, and taking up a path on what would still be a busy section through Stockport (and if anyone wanted to do that then extending the Macclesfield would make more sense).

But should we drive in a climate emergency? No. Driving should be little as possible, it should only be to place not reachable by public transport(or where it is poor). So keep Wilmslow as a stop.

 

[Ianno87]

But should we drive in a climate emergency? No. Driving should be little as possible, it should only be to place not reachable by public transport(or where it is poor). So keep Wilmslow as a stop.

Depends whether devising entire service groups purely to serve one stop (Wilmslow) has more environmental impact than people driving somewhere else. Or having a service serve Wilmslow at the expense of benefitting somewhere else.

 

[edwin_m]

But should we drive in a climate emergency? No. Driving should be little as possible, it should only be to place not reachable by public transport(or where it is poor). So keep Wilmslow as a stop.

You can't stop the high speed train everywhere or it wouldn't be a high speed train and everyone would drive instead. I've already pointed out that Wilmslow to London will still be possible, most likely faster and maybe more frequently than today, just with a change at Crewe.

 

[Hey 3]

You can't stop the high speed train everywhere or it wouldn't be a high speed train and everyone would drive instead. I've already pointed out that Wilmslow to London will still be possible, most likely faster and maybe more frequently than today, just with a change at Crewe.

But will people want to change at Crewe when they are used to going direct? No.

 

[zwk500]

But will people want to change at Crewe when they are used to going direct? No.

People will grumble, but then they'll realise it's pretty minor in the scheme of things and get on with their lives, as they have done every time services have been reshuffled in every area of the country. If you can never remove a direct service 1 station used to have, the railway will never be able to adapt and respond to changing demand.

 

[Ianno87]

But will people want to change at Crewe when they are used to going direct? No.

If it saves them half an hour, it's a different ball game.

 

[Purple Orange]

But should we drive in a climate emergency? No. Driving should be little as possible, it should only be to place not reachable by public transport(or where it is poor). So keep Wilmslow as a stop.

That makes no sense. The best purpose for Wilmslow will be to see high capacity commuter trains in to Manchester. People will go direct to Manchester airport for long distance, which will be connected to Wilmslow via the styal line.

 

[daodao]

That makes no sense. The best purpose for Wilmslow will be to see high capacity commuter trains in to Manchester. People will go direct to Manchester airport for long distance, which will be connected to Wilmslow via the Styal line.

I admire your faith in Metrolink actually being extended to Wilmslow, given that current demand to travel by public transport between the Airport and Wilmslow, and to/from Styal, is minimal. The existing hourly service is not deemed essential and has been "temporarily withdrawn" during the Covid crisis.

If/when Wilmslow ceases to have direct London services post HS2b, intending passengers for London are more likely to drive to Macclesfield or the new HS2b Airport station to be situated just off the A538 (whichever is more convenient/cheaper) than take a rail service to the Airport. If they want to travel by rail all the way, they could take a train to Crewe and change there.

 

[Purple Orange]

I admire your faith in Metrolink actually being extended to Wilmslow, given that current demand to travel by public transport between the Airport and Wilmslow, and to/from Styal, is minimal. The existing hourly service is not deemed essential and has been "temporarily withdrawn" during the Covid crisis.

If/when Wilmslow ceases to have direct London services post HS2b, intending passengers for London are more likely to drive to Macclesfield or the new HS2b Airport station to be situated just off the A538 (whichever is more convenient/cheaper) than take a rail service to the Airport. If they want to travel by rail all the way, they could take a train to Crewe and change there.

Yes they will drive to the airport station, just as most drive to Wilmslow station today. The point I’m making, and I think you’re in agreement given your second paragraph, is that the demand from Wilmslow station itself to London direct will be completely removed and taken to other stations.

Re. metrolink, I think your’re being hopeful that tram-train doesn’t take off. It’s intended to be used as a trial line, before adopted on longer lines around Greater Manchester. You also can’t take current demand to be anything of note.

 

[daodao]

Re. metrolink, I think your’re being hopeful that tram-train doesn’t take off. It’s intended to be used as a trial line, before adopted on longer lines around Greater Manchester.

To the contrary, I do support tram-train development, on appropriate routes where there is likely to be traffic demand and pure Metrolink is not feasible. However, I see no need for trial routes, or for Metrolink extensions into leafy Cheshire suburbs with high car use and low population density. Further discussion on this matter would be off topic for this thread.

 

[Mag_seven]

Can we stick to discussing Potential HS2 services please.

Thanks.

 

[Hey 3]

I admire your faith in Metrolink actually being extended to Wilmslow, given that current demand to travel by public transport between the Airport and Wilmslow, and to/from Styal, is minimal. The existing hourly service is not deemed essential and has been "temporarily withdrawn" during the Covid crisis.

If/when Wilmslow ceases to have direct London services post HS2b, intending passengers for London are more likely to drive to Macclesfield or the new HS2b Airport station to be situated just off the A538 (whichever is more convenient/cheaper) than take a rail service to the Airport. If they want to travel by rail all the way, they could take a train to Crewe and change there.

The new Manchester Interchange station will not be convenient to Wilmslow and not even the Airport.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The new Manchester Interchange station will not be convenient to Wilmslow

Yes, it will. It's a short journey on the A538.

and not even the Airport.

Who cares? HS2 is primarily about journeys to London, and hardly anybody will travel from London to Manchester Airport, so that isn't important. They'll fly from Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted or Luton. It's primarily a South Manchester Parkway, replacing Stockport in that regard, and it's easily accessible by road for that purpose.

I'd expect there will likely be a bus connecting the two of some sort, but it'll be as much an Airport station as East Midlands Parkway isn't. The existing Manchester Airport station will still exist and be the main station used by people actually going to the Airport for flights.

 

[Ianno87]

The new Manchester Interchange station will not be convenient to Wilmslow and not even the Airport.

15 minutes by car/taxi from the town centre. Less from the residential areas on the west side of town.

 

[Bletchleyite]

15 minutes by car/taxi from the town centre. Less from the residential areas on the west side of town.

Indeed. One thing people seem to often forget is that almost no journeys are from city centre to city centre. They are more commonly from residential suburb to city centre, or from residential suburb to business park.

 

[Hey 3]

Yes, it will. It's a short journey on the A538.



Who cares? HS2 is primarily about journeys to London, and hardly anybody will travel from London to Manchester Airport, so that isn't important. They'll fly from Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted or Luton. It's primarily a South Manchester Parkway, replacing Stockport in that regard, and it's easily accessible by road for that purpose.

I'd expect there will likely be a bus connecting the two of some sort, but it'll be as much an Airport station as East Midlands Parkway isn't. The existing Manchester Airport station will still exist and be the main station used by people actually going to the Airport for flights.

Just remember Manchester Interchange is on the wrong side of the M56.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just remember Manchester Interchange is on the wrong side of the M56.

If your car would have difficulty driving round a roundabout, 200m down a road under a bridge, then round another roundabout, I'd suggest you would be best off getting a new one.

If you don't drive and live in Wilmslow, change to HS2 at Crewe.

 

[Ianno87]

Just remember Manchester Interchange is on the wrong side of the M56.

There be dragons!

 

[Purple Orange]

The new Manchester Interchange station will not be convenient to Wilmslow and not even the Airport.

As a resident, I say the opposite.

If you don't drive and live in Wilmslow, change to HS2 at Crewe.

I try to drive as little as possible and should I be doing a long distance journey either on NPR or HS2, I expect I will be getting the tram-train to the airport. Failing that, I will get a lift or a taxi to the airport station as I sometimes do to Wilmslow. (The people who decry the possibility of tram-train are in denial on this I’d say - speaking with the heart and not the head).

 

[Greybeard33]

Who cares? HS2 is primarily about journeys to London, and hardly anybody will travel from London to Manchester Airport, so that isn't important. They'll fly from Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted or Luton. It's primarily a South Manchester Parkway, replacing Stockport in that regard, and it's easily accessible by road for that purpose.

I'd expect there will likely be a bus connecting the two of some sort, but it'll be as much an Airport station as East Midlands Parkway isn't. The existing Manchester Airport station will still exist and be the main station used by people actually going to the Airport for flights.

People might well travel from London to Manchester Airport when it is only 56 minutes from Old Oak Common. The difference in surface journey time compared with the London airports could be outweighed by a quicker passage through the airport and/or more convenient flight times for some destinations.

There will be a frequent Metrolink tram service from the HS2 station to the existing Airport station in the centre of the airport, with a transfer time of just a few minutes. So HS2 will also be the quickest way from Piccadilly to the Airport.

 

[Purple Orange]

People might well travel from London to Manchester Airport when it is only 56 minutes from Old Oak Common. The difference in surface journey time compared with the London airports could be outweighed by a quicker passage through the airport and/or more convenient flight times for some destinations.

There will be a frequent Metrolink tram service from the HS2 station to the existing Airport station in the centre of the airport, with a transfer time of just a few minutes. So HS2 will also be the quickest way from Piccadilly to the Airport.

Exactly. Manchester Airport HS2 is set to see 9 tph serving not just Piccadilly, but Leeds, Newcastle, Birmingham, Liverpool, Warrington, Huddersfield, York and London! It will be the primary station for medium & long distance travel in South Manchester too, while the existing station will be for stopping services. If you are in central Manchester, you’d take a HS2 or NPR train and not bother with the Styal line.

 

[daodao]

The new Manchester Interchange station will not be convenient to Wilmslow

It will only be 10 (or at most 15) minutes away by car - I have just driven along A538 from Wilmslow to Altrincham.

There is also a bus service of sorts: DG Route 88, which runs hourly Mon-Sat, daytime only.

 

[Purple Orange]

And GM is launching a Bus Rapid Transit network with the Airport being one of the hubs, that radiate east & west to Altrincham & Wilmslow.

 

[Bletchleyite]

People might well travel from London to Manchester Airport when it is only 56 minutes from Old Oak Common.

Doubt it.

The difference in surface journey time compared with the London airports could be outweighed by a quicker passage through the airport and/or more convenient flight times for some destinations.

You been to Heathrow lately? It's a breeze. The building of T2 (Queen's Terminal) and T5 have transformed it from a dump to be avoided to in my view one of the world's best airports. No reason to trek all the way to Manchester, which by comparison has an utterly terrible reputation, particularly lengthy security queues (something I have never experienced at LHR since it was done up).

There will be a frequent Metrolink tram service from the HS2 station to the existing Airport station in the centre of the airport, with a transfer time of just a few minutes. So HS2 will also be the quickest way from Piccadilly to the Airport.

If they take bookings for that - they may well not do, just as I believe London-OOC won't be offered on HS2.

 

[Purple Orange]

Doubt it.



You been to Heathrow lately? It's a breeze. The building of T2 (Queen's Terminal) and T5 have transformed it from a dump to be avoided to in my view one of the world's best airports. No reason to trek all the way to Manchester, which by comparison has an utterly terrible reputation, particularly lengthy security queues (something I have never experienced at LHR since it was done up).



If they take bookings for that - they may well not do, just as I believe London-OOC won't be offered on HS2.

HS2 is reporting Piccadilly-Airport as a 7 minute journey and the airport will want to use it as the main route for passengers landing at MAN. Even if HS2 makes it mandatory to book a reserved seat, NPR won’t and I doubt Birmingham trains will either.